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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 04:27 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:22 Hollow27 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:20 Marradron wrote:On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone The best thing about this is it silences all the annoying "it's not conclusive, bla bla bla reasonable doubt" arguments. If it's true, then what Spades did is impossible without maphacks. Everything else can be explained away in some fashion, even if it is unreasonable, but this cannot. Yeah, stupid people not jumping on a lynch bandwagon! We gotta silence those annoying people who wants "evidence" and "certainty" and stuff. If this means what you suggest, great, then there is no longer a reasonable doubt. This is what should have been waited for prior to this huge community shunning.
conclusive evidence is not necessary to prove something; in fact, it rarely exists.
if you want to continue this, pm me, this thread has gone off on tangents enough and actual discussion is now taking place.
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You are never going to get a 100% proof for anyone with half a brain who knows not to use those micro hacks. When Dragon got exposed for streamhacking and disguising as two different people in tournaments, there was never a 100% proof, but people kept digging and more and more of the forum posters gradually became convinced that he cheated. This finally got him to admit.
You can argue all day about all of these numerous accusations individually (Yes, some have been shown to be false alarm. Some parts look incredibly suspicious, and some of you argue that those are coincidences), but at some point, you have to look at the whole picture and think to yourself "Can this realistically be a mere string of lucky coincidences and replay bugs?". Those of you saying that anyone can be "framed" this way, try it yourself on a random player out there and see if you succeed. I hope you don't love your TL account too much.
Also, some people may say that this should be made entirely irrelevant, but I think that it is reasonable to look at Spade's character as well. He denied hacking the exact same way a few years ago for a very long time. TL had proof of his cheating (thanks to Blizzard not having such tight control over battle.net back then as well as maphacks that were not as "high-tech" as they are now), and his clan also concluded that he cheated after doing an extensive review of his replays. He just kept denying it.
After his PM apology to TL mods, he apparently cared a lot about rebuilding a good reputation as a Starcraft 2 player. However, he supposedly resorted to cheating again (streamhacking) including in his showmatch against Gatored (Yes, this is also not 100% proven. Nobody filmed him streamcheating, which would be the only 100% evidence possible).
Again, at certain point, you just have to say "If it looks like duck, quacks like a duck..." This is a progaming community, not a criminal court of law. If you insist someone is innocent because there is no "100% proof", nobody is ever going to get caught except blatant trolls streaming themselves hacking or 11 year old kids who think they can get away with 1000 APM blink micro hack. This honestly is not the way to go considering how pervasive maphacks seem to be nowadays.
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By the way guys, I'm all for evidence and getting as close to certainty as possible, but many people aren't just trying to test accusations or points of conflict but are stretching to defend him and have the thread closed. These are very different things and I support the former and not the latter.
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On June 07 2012 04:23 quarkle wrote:
Seems funny that long after Spades himself has thrown in the towel there's an endless amount of armchair experts willing and ready to prove his innocence.
The way I see it if Spades hasn't got the belly to fight and defend his own corner its probably time to move on and find another cause.
Its not just this thread either as there's an official WW retire/resign thread where Spades has hardly said a word.
A bit like someone who refuses to take the stand because they know they will end up hanging themselves.
I think Spades did the right thing by resigning his position not that he had any choice because WW would have had no choice to release him from their services if he hadn't.
Actually I have less respect for WW than I do for Spades because they implied this issue and the outcome has nothing to do with TL or the community when nothing could be further from the truth.
I think when WW parted ways with Spades, it made very clear they didnt believe him.
I mean, if any other pro, like an EG or TL player, for example, was accused of maphacking, and we didnt have an 100% solid proof, i bet his team would defend and stick to him. WW did the opposite.
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On June 07 2012 04:00 Hollow27 wrote:Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.pngIf people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. Quoting a post on reddit from a guy without a TL account; all credit to measuredinyears on reddit. If this pans out, could this be the conclusive proof necessary? http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/
Thanks for finally breaking the case tonycheese. You win a billion esports dollars this day.
/thread.
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On June 07 2012 04:27 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:22 Hollow27 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:20 Marradron wrote:On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone The best thing about this is it silences all the annoying "it's not conclusive, bla bla bla reasonable doubt" arguments. If it's true, then what Spades did is impossible without maphacks. Everything else can be explained away in some fashion, even if it is unreasonable, but this cannot. Yeah, stupid people not jumping on a lynch bandwagon! We gotta silence those annoying people who wants "evidence" and "certainty" and stuff. If this means what you suggest, great, then there is no longer a reasonable doubt. This is what should have been waited for prior to this huge community shunning.
Yeah, awful people who wants there to be an applicable standard of proof for when someone is hacking or not.
This new development of checking the distance between clicks that happens out-of-screen seems to be the first real method of tracking down who is in fact a real cheater or not. Would be nice to compare the results of these lucifron games with proven non-hacking games (LAN-tournament replays) as well as replays of people who's been caught hacking (like that guy who used blink-hack) to see if it holds up and can be used as a first detection system.
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On June 07 2012 04:21 intrigue wrote:can we find out what resolution spades plays in from his stream VODs? Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. edit: Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap. ah i see. tonycheese if this is true then this is the closest thing to proof we have, yes?
We don't need to actually figure out what resolution he plays at for this case, since 0.3 units apart is so close, we just need to get a scaling factor and find the minimum distance apart clicks made on the minimap translate into, and I can guarantee that no resolution will enable clicks to be made .3 units apart via the minimap. In the future, for a script to be made, we would need to get several different scaling factors for each resolution to incorporate into an algorithm.
I need to get to a meeting in 15 minutes, will be back in a few hours. If nobody else has written up a conclusive summary about why this is proof, I'll do it when I get back.
Gogo hivemind! Finding this is almost (ALMOST) as fun as elevating Glider to righteous victory over that english teacher.
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On June 07 2012 04:27 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:22 Hollow27 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:20 Marradron wrote:On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone The best thing about this is it silences all the annoying "it's not conclusive, bla bla bla reasonable doubt" arguments. If it's true, then what Spades did is impossible without maphacks. Everything else can be explained away in some fashion, even if it is unreasonable, but this cannot. Yeah, stupid people not jumping on a lynch bandwagon! We gotta silence those annoying people who wants "evidence" and "certainty" and stuff. If this means what you suggest, great, then there is no longer a reasonable doubt. This is what should have been waited for prior to this huge community shunning.
You fail to draw a distinction between evidence based reasoning and certainty based reasoning. Compare biology and mathematics for a distinction. I'm certain that within Euclidean geometry in isosceles triangles the angles at the base equal one another. Yet, I only have evidence for light being required for photosynthesis. We know both facts, but the determination is different. And in this case, certainty is impossible. What we need is evidence that lifts the case above a specific criterion (that we also need to agree on).
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And for those who flamed the mods and asked why the hell you leave a discussion like this open..... this is why.(see above)
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It's not called "benefit of the doubt" when someone has already been shown guilty of the exact same thing they are again being accused of. In addition an unscrupulous amount of evidence points to his guilt again.
I am not saying this confirms his guilt but it does in my opinion warrant a discussion.
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On June 07 2012 04:19 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now. Interesting. Great find guys.
I tested out the general concept of the minimap. First off, It's possible to change the "grid" by changing the resolution by making the game windowed and change the window size, and the game adjusts with the new resolution. What I did is simply queue moves on the minimap pixel-by-pixel and you can notice the grid pattern emerging when using the minimap, then after resizing the window, the grid would change again, and wouldn't match the old one.
However, I don't think a hacker would go out of their way to play in a game with less-than-ideal game settings (unless they play at odd resolutions).
In order for this to be valid, assume that the game is played in is common 1080p for a desktop computer. I believe the tester only did it in a 900p laptop, so minimap clicks may differ.
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On June 07 2012 04:32 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:00 Hollow27 wrote:Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.pngIf people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. Quoting a post on reddit from a guy without a TL account; all credit to measuredinyears on reddit. If this pans out, could this be the conclusive proof necessary? http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/ Thanks for finally breaking the case tonycheese. You win a billion esports dollars this day. /thread.
Boom. Smoking gun found. This is all I wanted. Spades, you should be ashamed.
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Sorry guys, this method does not work.
![[image loading]](http://gyazo.com/96dbbf0e250e8abbb7e21527c109bfc2.png)
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On June 07 2012 04:30 zefreak wrote:
By the way guys, I'm all for evidence and getting as close to certainty as possible, but many people aren't just trying to test accusations or points of conflict but are stretching to defend him and have the thread closed. These are very different things and I support the former and not the latter.
Yes, totally agree, the defense really has gone out of their way too. Its not like he wasnt given "fair trial", everything that has been debunked is just harped on by people who have not read the entire thread. Others have been finding more proof all the time.
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On June 07 2012 04:35 artanis2 wrote:Sorry guys, this method does not work.
Isn't it relevant that the y axis is off by 2?
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Now, what we need to do is channel all this unbridled epsports energy.
Someone good at coding needs to write up an analyzer script using the parameters outlined by tonycheese that also accounts for variance in screen resolution as it relates to minimap grid clicks vs. onscreen clicks.
That way we can just run it on any fishy game next time and be saved all the debate.
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On June 07 2012 04:36 h41fgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:30 zefreak wrote:
By the way guys, I'm all for evidence and getting as close to certainty as possible, but many people aren't just trying to test accusations or points of conflict but are stretching to defend him and have the thread closed. These are very different things and I support the former and not the latter. Yes, totally agree, the defense really has gone out of their way too. Its not like he wasnt given "fair trial", everything that has been debunked is just harped on by people who have not read the entire thread. Others have been finding more proof all the time.
And again, these new proofs are either evidence based, and then debunked, as has happened repeatedly, or opinion based which are really non-falsifiable.
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On June 07 2012 04:37 Ghanburighan wrote:Isn't it relevant that the y axis is off by 2?
Furthermore how did he achieve this. It has to be repeatable by other people. Otherwise he might just click somewhere on the map in view
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In tonycheese's analysis the y axis was off by some amount as well. I suppose if it was only one axis and the other number was the same...
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EPT
