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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
Child. Your premise is that you need proof to label him a hacker. Since that is incorrect, the rest of your argument, if you even have one, is without merit.
Just because you say with entitlement, "I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it," doesn't mean thats what it is. I hope you're bright enough to realize that you're not a precious snowflake, and that just because you say something, doesn't make it true or required.
The fact of the matter is, proof is not required to label someone a hacker. Nothing will change that no matter how much you wish it wasn't true. Now stop defending this hacker, it's pathetic.
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Update from the reddit post
If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap.
Can anyone here on TL confirm this?
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On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter.
And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action.
I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not.
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On June 07 2012 04:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:47 recallsm wrote:On June 07 2012 03:41 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo. I believe my post is reasonable. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=241#4818Not saying he isn't hacking, but his actions do cast doubt on it as evidence of hacking. Well, your post already points out most of the things that tip the scales in favour of him hacking so you must be aware of the issues. Had he just rallied a medivac somewhere in search of a hidden base, that would not be convincing because of the scan of a usual third. Being very detailed about the drop location and timing, though, requires a much more detailed explanation to constitute reasonable doubt. This is entombed, he had a choice between 10 possible hidden base locations.
TBH, given the same scenario, I would have pulled a similar drop to him. I've done it before a couple of times on ladder. I assume its natural that people would send the medivac on a perimeter course to avoid running into mobs by accident in the middle of the map.
The bottom right base would be the first base I would check, given its the nearest one to the opponent and safest drop / gtfo point given its next to the cliff, and subsequently if nothing was there I would run down the ramp to the natural to see if hidden expo was there. Initially I found it weird he sent his units there, that's when I went back to make sure he KNEW there was no 3rd base at the usual location.
Based on my own play, I do think its perfectly reasonable he dropped there. In fact, I learnt this play watching GSL terrans quite some time ago (corner hidden bases were popular on taldarim), its really not something exclusive to this game between Spades and Chrono.
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On June 07 2012 04:00 Hollow27 wrote:Show nested quote + Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.pngIf people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. Quoting a post on reddit from a guy without a TL account; all credit to measuredinyears on reddit. If this pans out, could this be the conclusive proof necessary? http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/
Now that is an interesting find. Certainly must have taken some painstaking effort to go through spades clicks to find ones that could not be issued via minimap and only via the screen while he was not looking. We'll need more testing on this, but it seems sound. If the minmap grid is consistent and reproducible, this could be a viable way to find screen locks.
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On June 07 2012 04:11 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:08 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. Just an FYI: You don't be a strawman, you create strawmen out of the enemy to tear them down easier. I know what a strawman is, thank you. But if you want to accuse me of not knowing so, go ahead. + Show Spoiler +You seem to be pretty good at accusing people, after all, or am I wrong? See what I did there? Yeah, a strawman. I'm such a dick. Show nested quote +he didnt click enemy units in 14 games what are the chances that could happen ? very very little. veredict in BW : guilty. What does that even mean??
in BW any normal person will click enemy units to check health, upgrades , etc.
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On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post Show nested quote +If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this?
very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now.
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On June 07 2012 04:11 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:08 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. Just an FYI: You don't be a strawman, you create strawmen out of the enemy to tear them down easier. I know what a strawman is, thank you. But if you want to accuse me of not knowing so, go ahead. + Show Spoiler +You seem to be pretty good at accusing people, after all, or am I wrong? See what I did there? Yeah, a strawman. I'm such a dick. Show nested quote +he didnt click enemy units in 14 games what are the chances that could happen ? very very little. veredict in BW : guilty. What does that even mean??
Apparently you don't know what a strawman is...
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On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter. And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action. I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not.
If it were me that you were doing this to, couldn't I bring a countersuit and attempt to play that out until after the tournament, effectively making your action worthless?
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On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now.
Interesting. Great find guys.
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Child. Your premise is that you need proof to label him a hacker. Since that is incorrect, the rest of your argument, if you even have one, is without merit.
How is that incorrect? I'm not talking on behalf of everyone else on Teamliquid, I'm talking on behalf of myself and what I feel about this. I want proof, if you cannot deliver that to me, then I won't believe what you tell me. I don't have to argue, because this is not a negotiation of evidence or a scenario in which we magically come to an agreement based on subjective evidence.
Just because you say with entitlement, "I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it," doesn't mean thats what it is. I hope you're bright enough to realize that you're not a precious snowflake, and that just because you say something, doesn't make it true or required.
Yeah, it does. And, just for the lulz, because I can tell you did not think that arguement through, I'll turn it around and say; just because you say that x evidence is enough proof for his actions, doesn't make it true or required.
The fact of the matter is, proof is not required to label someone a hacker. Nothing will change that no matter how much you wish it wasn't true. Now stop defending this hacker, it's pathetic.
That's your opinion and it has been noted by many. Sadly for you, a lot of people also wants definitive proof before they decide whether or not to label him as a hacker, so, I guess I could once again turn this around and say; stop defending this potential innocent person, because you don't if he's actually hacking or not, and that's, say, pathetic?
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On June 07 2012 04:13 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:00 Hollow27 wrote: Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.pngIf people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. Quoting a post on reddit from a guy without a TL account; all credit to measuredinyears on reddit. If this pans out, could this be the conclusive proof necessary? http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/ Now that is an interesting find. Certainly must have taken some painstaking effort to go through spades clicks to find ones that could not be issued via minimap and only via the screen while he was not looking. We'll need more testing on this, but it seems sound. If the minmap grid is consistent and reproducible, this could be a viable way to find screen locks.
Yep i agree next hack will have that covered i guess :/ sad sad sad
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On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ?
The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap.
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On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now.
The evendence was already quite overwhelming. But this should really seal the deal for everyone
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On June 07 2012 03:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:41 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo. Really, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal matters, when jail time is involved. The standard for civil matters, like breach of contract or deceptive business practices, is "preponderance of the evidence". It is a much lower standard of proof requiring that it be at least 50% more likely that the person is responsable for the action they are accused of. Because we are only talking about people losing money and not jail time, the standard would be far lower than that in a criminal case. This is really the standard people should be using, from my professional opinion. No criminal action was commited and he did not physicially harm someone. We are only talking about money and for that, we do not need 100% proof Spades was hacking. All that should be needed is that is more likely than not that he was hacking in some games. That is enough proof for me to demand that he be barred from touranments.
I said this same thing, oh, 100 pages ago and nobody wants to come to that level of understanding. Hopefully our attempt will get a little bit of traction with regard to the standard of proof that is applicable to this circumstance.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
can we find out what resolution spades plays in from his stream VODs?
On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now.
edit:
On June 07 2012 04:20 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:10 TMOUllrich wrote:This is a pretty nice *possible* breakthrough. Spades what resolution do you use ? The point is that you dont need to know the resolution, the two clicks shown in the OP are only .3 units apart on the x-axis, therefore he must have clicked on the terrain instead of the minimap.
ah i see. tonycheese if this is true then this is the closest thing to proof we have, yes?
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Hi guys. Apparently I did have a TL account after all. I was the one who posted on reddit about the minimap grid. I think it's pretty self-explanatory but if you have any questions you can ask me.
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gg no re? :D well done thanks alot measuredinyears
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On June 07 2012 04:21 intrigue wrote:can you guys stop quibbling about stupid shit? toiletcat there's a real possibility for proof on this page but you're still stuck in some irrelevant argument. here's something very interesting. can we find out what resolution spades plays in from his stream VODs? Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:15 caradoc wrote:On June 07 2012 04:12 Tewks44 wrote:Update from the reddit post If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. Can anyone here on TL confirm this? very similar to what I was just looking at. I think this is accurate, I'm confirming it now.
The point is it should not even matter what resolution he uses since it is not possible to make such small increase in location on any minimap using any resolution.
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On June 07 2012 04:16 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2012 04:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 07 2012 03:50 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 03:46 hinnolinn wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough. So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person. As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof. Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards. Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well. If you want to be part of this community, you shouldn't call people "boy". It is poor form and rude. And there is a overwhelming evidence that something fishy was going on in many of Spades games. There is plenty to look at and you can go back any review the thread if you want to form your theory on the matter. And proof is a subjective word and one that is not used often in law. Proving something requires a standard of evidence that is accepted, with rules. What you are demanding is someone provide you with a "smoking gun" that Spades is a hacker. However, law rarely works that way and if there were a legal action, we would not be required to provide a "smoking gun". In fact, if someone were to bring a legal action to prevent Spades from entering a touranment, they would not be required to prove he was a hacker "beyond a reasonable doubt". They would only need to prove that he was most likely hacking, or show a "preponderance of evidence", since it would be a civil action. I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that Spades in hacking. It is more likley than not. If it were me that you were doing this to, couldn't I bring a countersuit and attempt to play that out until after the tournament, effectively making your action worthless?
You could, but the court would still ruling on the that was file injunction to prevent you from playing. It could be opposed, but that is about it. Even if it was not allowed, by playing in touranments, you could expose yourself to increasing liability if you were found by the court to have cheated. You could file counter claims for damages caused by being prevented from playing, but those would be resolved at the end of the suit.
But all this is rarely handled in court. People want to apply court standards to the whole "is he hacking" discussion, so I felt the need to inject some realism into the theory crafting.
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EPT
