07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That´s Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
No it isnt impossible they must overlooked something with this program somewhere it must be. Otherwise everyone with strange mechanics can be the next dude getting fucked up by the community
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Don't tell me you've never dropped at a third base, without knowing if it's even there, because 17 minutes into a game, I would probably assume that he's got a third up by then, as well.
They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Who the hell would unload a Medivac at an expansion and then rally the empty Medivac into the main of their opponent? And furthermore, how is a third base, 17 minutes into a game hidden?
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Don't tell me you've never dropped at a third base, without knowing if it's even there, because 17 minutes into a game, I would probably assume that he's got a third up by then, as well.
They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Who the hell would unload a Medivac at an expansion and then rally the empty Medivac into the main of their opponent? And furthermore, how is a third base, 17 minutes into a game hidden?
The " third base " that he dropped at is the southeast main on Entombed Valley, not a natural third. It would have been a blind guess.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Dropping in a fogg base protos, and he is not maphacking sure !!!
here you have another point -->
He is not maphacking sure!!!!
As for 17:20 in the replay, he scans what would normally be the 3rd before sending his medivacs, and sees it's empty. He's obviously preparing a drop at that point, and since the 3rd is empty he assumes the protoss must have expanded elsewhere, and the bottom right isn't a bad place to hide your 3rd (though the protoss should've put a pylon to spot for drops coming from the left, but that's irrelevant). He's very quick about it. The base is probably there, but he can't know. It can't really be a two-base push either. The timing is way too late, so there has to be another base, or the protoss is just bad. A bit odd is at 15:14 when he plants his 4th CC in his nat. At that point he only knows the protoss has two bases (but in fact he has his 4th on it's way), and can assume there's a 3rd somewhere. And I suppose he's fairly well defended with 4 tanks, ~20 marauders almost 30 marines and soon 2 thors. Also, he can infer that there was no ultra fast 3rd base, because of the fast colossus drops with speed, so maybe he's confident that there can't be a really powerful 3-base push coming.
On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote: Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence'
The witchhunt is based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. The "pro" player opinions and accusations are mostly piling on, drama mongering and without any evidence. I dont even really care about the community being stupid but when his peers so quickly come in to accuse him of regularly stream cheating on meaningful matches or note that they have felt like he was maphacking against them it makes me not want to watch this game anymore.
If pro players are going to randomly accuse him of maphacking then they should post the replays and note the actual evidence. They have the replays. They should be held to that standard. God knows Spades is being held to a much higher standard than some joe blow maphacker.
I think you're wrong on these points:
It is not random accusation of maphacking by pros. There is nothing random about it.
It is not flimsy circumstantial evidence. It is very suspicious circumstantial evidence. And that evidence is not in short supply.
There are too many questionable occurances back to back in back to back games in 2 different series for it to be random luck. Plus there's the whole issue of his mechanics (lack FOW viewing, scanning using minimap) not lining up with his mechanics in the control group of his normal ladder games. It just doesn't make sense. And he, the only one who truly can, won't try to help make sense of it, he'd rather just play the victim and turn tail.
The only pro to post any sort of replay to back up their claim that Spades hacked was Illusion.
He posted 3 games that showed "proof" that Spades hacked based on his play and specific moves. Included was a text document listing these instances of proof. A good deal of it was just random "hey he didnt scout enough hacks!" but included were a few specific "suspicious acts". None of them were particularly suspicious unless you watched them assuming Spades had cheated.
Game 2- Spades moves his army back to his base just before Theo attacks from his base towards the middle of the map where Spades' army was. -Spades had forgotten siege mode which he had just recently started. He was scanned and realized he probably didnt have enough forces to hold the attack. Theo had already moved his army once from his third to a position outside of his base before moving it again towards the center of the map. Spades moves his army BEFORE Theo moves his army out the second time and AFTER he is scanned. He leaves a unit at the watchtower and sees Theo's army following. He ends up losing the game. -If he was hacking why didnt he position marines to defend the reaper that was on the way or why didnt he position his viking against the banshee that was incoming? He had an excuse to do so because he mineral lines were already defended with turrets which were a perfectly legitimate response to the scan that scouted the starport and double gas.
Game 3 supposedly has the real evidence. "No scouting until scan ~6:30 Scans tech lab + starport bout to be swapped" No scouting in TvT color me surprised! The scan was nothing special. It was a run of the mill lets see what he is doing scan centered in the main of Theo. Ive seen it a million times from every terran pro. Edit- In fact Theo scanned 15 seconds earlier at the same spot in Spades' base after failing to scout whether Spades had expanded.
"11:20 army is in middle and theo is doing a runby out of xel naga range with hellions, spades pulls back in position to defend the hellions" 10:45 Spades scouts 7 BFH with a marauder positioned outside Theo's base. 11:00 Spades engages said hellions at the watchtower and they pull back. Spades drops some barracks and a few seconds later preemptively moves his units back from the center to defend the hellions. Now I dont know about you, but when I see 8 BFH I get worried about a runby. I think its pretty reasonable to put some units in position for such an occurrence.
"15+ sick game sense bottom left defense? What if top right." Spades scans and sees Theo's army is not where it should be. He moves the bottom left to defend and guesses correctly. Its a pretty reasonable guess considering that is where his third is and the third on Antigua can be vulnerable if the rocks are broken down. Attacking the low ground near the main and elevatoring would probably not have been very effective because Theo had no anti air and could not have prevented medivac bombs.
"~16:10 sends marine to top right to scout for "runbys" with army, doesn't send to bottom left. Fishy or dumb play" This is actually just incorrect. Spades actually does send a marine to the bottom left. You can clearly see him select it and move it but then he hits his army hotkey and overrides the marines move command because the marine is still hotkeyed. After that he moves a marine to the top right as well and catches the runby.
"16:55 scans perfect, why not scan right side again -can't be judged too much though." Spades does a generic scan at the usual rally point and catches most of the army as it is moving for a bottom left attack.
Ultimately there is almost nothing that isnt seen every day when observing pro players. There are a couple correct guesses which are also accompanied by many incorrect guesses but because he was being sneaky about his cheating those were clearly intended. /end sarcasm.
Concerning Theo not having any anti-air, you obviously know this, but does Spades know this? I guess I'll just have to look myself... Okay, so Spades did kill Theognis' only starport (that he knew of, and there only was one), and Spades hadn't seen any vikings before that or during the battle and even if Theognis rebuilt the starport instantly there wouldn't be any vikings out by the time he did that suspicious move to the left. So it's possible that he considered the left side to be more exposed, and expected Theognis to move to the side after seeing Spades' position with a scan.
Spades scanned at 15:16 (before he moved his army to the left). It looks like the scan revealed nothing, but if you look at the minimap as the scan hits, for a moment you can see a blue dot down to the left. If you look at the location you can see a tank there. It looks like Spades doesn't see the tank itself (though I think he did. The movement of camera positions are instant in-game, but takes a split second when watching the replay) but either way he might have seen the blue dot on the minimap, and he proceeds to scroll to the left a bit, crossing a bit of fog of war. It's not a mass of fog though. There's the scan on one side and the vision from the watchtower on the other, with a bit of fog between and down the left. It's quite reasonable that Spades saw the tank on the minimap, but I still don't understand why he would scroll to the left into the fog. If he hacks that would let him see a bunch of tanks (he didn't scroll enough to see the mass of hellions). But he might also scroll over there considering to scan (Theognis does this in a sort of similar situation, namely when approaching the left flank with his army right after this), but decides he is certain he saw something and will just reposition his army. I was convinced this was highly suspicious before but now it doesn't seem weird at all. It also seems risky of him to move back into the middle without being sure Theognis' army isn't in position to just run by though, but he does try to put a marine on the left side to spot for that and like you say it's just still in the control group so it is stopped when he issues a command to his main army, and he then sends a marine to the top left. So if he is hacking, he's still trying to cover it up and doing a good job this game.
There's still the fact that he doesn't look into fog of war like he normally does. But like I said, after the scan at 15:16 he scrolls to the right through a bit of fog, but it's not compact fog (revealed on two sides, but still a decent chunk of fog). If only someone with the hack active could replicate this and see if it let's you do that.
With this game looking decently legit I guess I'll have to look through the other two games vs Theognis as well.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question.
Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating. If this was someone who is held in high regard by the community, then I could imagine posting every few seconds in his defense. But with Spades I'm not sure why.
It's not about who he is, it's about people making false statements that are easily debunked. Stop supporting your accusations with exaggerations that are simply untrue, you would never gain any credibility in court that way.
Nothing I said was untrue - they were all things said by the exact parties in this very thread. I don't know whether he hacked or not, but I do know that based on the facts of his past and the personal anecdotes from other pros in this thread, that there is no way I'm going way out of my way to defend him.
I understand the desire to protect the innocent, but outside of the hacking debate, hes not innocent. Hes stream cheated in SC2 besides hacking in BW. Hes not someone that I'm going to get all up in arms to defend.
at 17:14 in the replay the bottom 2 medivacs are issued a drop command to the hidden base that he hasnt scouted, nor does he know of it.
why would he choose to drop there instead of rally moving them there and then shift clicking up to the natural, and THEN dropping AFTER he has scouted that its there??? (like he did for the bottom left main on the way)
i can understand some peoples hesitation to call him a hacker because its the biggest deal in the world for a progamer and he will be crucified and ruined for this.
but really, what other proof do you want aside from his confession, that can equate to this "100%" proof you guys are asking for??
this replay clearly shows you he is maphacking and screenlocking... there is no explanation for those medivacs dropping there
the guy has been using hacks, in some games no, but in some games yes. he needs to be banned.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Don't tell me you've never dropped at a third base, without knowing if it's even there, because 17 minutes into a game, I would probably assume that he's got a third up by then, as well.
They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Who the hell would unload a Medivac at an expansion and then rally the empty Medivac into the main of their opponent? And furthermore, how is a third base, 17 minutes into a game hidden?
You have not watched the replay.
Please stop telling people that they've not watched the replays, just because you don't agree.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Really, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal matters, when jail time is involved. The standard for civil matters, like breach of contract or deceptive business practices, is "preponderance of the evidence". It is a much lower standard of proof requiring that it be at least 50% more likely that the person is responsable for the action they are accused of. Because we are only talking about people losing money and not jail time, the standard would be far lower than that in a criminal case.
This is really the standard people should be using, from my professional opinion. No criminal action was commited and he did not physicially harm someone. We are only talking about money and for that, we do not need 100% proof Spades was hacking. All that should be needed is that is more likely than not that he was hacking in some games. That is enough proof for me to demand that he be barred from touranments.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
I think we're on the same side here, I was rebutting what Benjamin99 was saying.
The thing is that as long as he uses a maphack with this screen locking feature, there pretty much cannot be 100% proof that he is hacking. You can always just base everything on random chance or guessing.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
This right here.
Guys, for the LAST time, this is not a court of law. We do NOT need 100% proof to come to an informed decision. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that Spades is a hacker. His actions, and attempted defense do nothing but reinforce that idea.
No one is ruining anyone's life. The player chose to cheat to gain an unfair advantage, and took the risk of being caught, and did. Spades is not a victim in ANY sense. Everything that has happened and has been shown in this thread is due to his own actions.
We get it, there's a lot of you out there that think that criminal legal standards of proof should be applied in every scenario ever. This is moronic, and shows that you have definitely not graduated high school to have such a simplistic, and ignorant understanding of justice. For example, in Civil cases (IE for money) only a 51% standard of proof needs be shown, which is why OJ was found innocent in a criminal trial, yet went broke in civil court by the families of the victims.
As to public, non-judicial things such as hacking in video games, it simply comes down to community consensus. You guys are the ones who have to enforce and set the standard. You may think it needs to be 100% proof, but please at least understand that that is a ridiculous standard to set that anyone with any understanding of the legal system will never agree with.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.
On June 06 2012 21:01 Alejandrisha wrote: i'm showing you the same time frame of 2 different screens.
screen 1 - lock at same time hotkey spam and lack of on screen actions, DOES NOT MOVE CAMERA TO 4TH BASE,
screen 2 - actions given when camera is still locked on his army, though those clicks are quite clearly done on screen. magically, wp appears. here's the 2nd video
1. the lock at same time hotkey spam is not really a hotkey spam open your rageing eyes. He selects all his army in ctrl 1. 2. The move his army exactly when my warp prism comes is like : he knew your army was coming NOT THE WARP PRISM ... but hey you never showed that in your little movies... WHY ?
By the way i watched THE ENTIRE replay and you can see it was logical to move and defend that base. It is pretty sad that there were 5-6 posts after the replay was posted that say he map hacks and they don't even watch the replay.
I'm surprised this thread is still going @_@ I'm not suprised more replays are going to turn up proving spades hacks though.
You can 100% verify that spades hacks from this replay. I watched it, and you do not even need to get to the warp prism parts to find clear evidence. It's the same evidence that was already found during the luci vs spade series, except even worse in this replay (i think)?
16:02 Spades loads up two dropships at natural, waypoint via minimap perfectly to an unscouted base in the mineral line
16:02-16:11 Camera block with useless spam actions, this is the timespades is looking into the fog to set the drop to drop at alej's bottom right corner base
16:48 Spades loads two dropships at his third. Notice next part in particular.
16:51 Spades two dropships are selected and sent out during this exact second spades gives the dropships a queue, first to the empty space and then perfectly into the corner of alej's base...via minimap?
16:52-17:02 This is where spades begins "randomly" spamming his barracks hotkeys while his camera is sitting inside of his own base, first spamming rally points at his third, then...
17:02 You have to rewind the replay to catch the following. But at 17:02 is the exact moment that spades manually selects his 2 dropships at the top to manually control them. During this exact moment his screen is camera locked onto his main's command center.
17:02 Spades manually selects the dropships to give a drop command or what not into alej's base. This is again, one of the most important and 100% pieces of evidence of hacking from this replay.
Spades selects the dropships without ever (in the replay) moving his screen to the dropships. They were not hotkeyed. It is actually 100% technically impossible to box select two dropships from the mini-map.
What this means is, Spade's screen is currently camera locked at his base but he had actually moved his screen to select the two dropships in the empty space to give them new commands.
On top of this, from the psychological/strategic analysis that alej gave, the reason in this instance that spades has re-taken manual control of the dropships before they get nearer to his base is because spades must actually have more information than he should - he was looking through the fog of war.
16:43 I realized I had to rewind to catch this as well. At 16:43, the exact same scenario happened that is literally impossible. Spades once again begins spamming hotkeys at his third base, but in reality at this exact second he has moved his camera is locked again, and he has moved his screen to select his two dropships at the bottom of the map, which of course were en route to a base that spades had no knowledge of in the first place.
17:11-17:15 Spades manually takes control of the bottom two dropships, this time as well manually re-positioning the drop and manually using the map hack to look through the fog of war (no camera lock) to drop onto two unfinished cannons.
I didn't continue to analyze the later warp prism shinenigans that alej described because it's unneeded, though i'm sure it's just as much evidence as the entire scenario that occurred from 16:02 - 17:15.
Whatever maphack spades has been using, as already gone over 5000 times, it obviously has a camera lock feature. Was this all a random drama "witchhunt" like we saw in the past about orb/destiny? Not really, I don't think anyone that has interacted with spades before wanted it to be true that he hacks, because it is a shame. But people need to understand there has to be zero tolerance for hackers in the sc2 community.
There are so many prizes/prize money floating around now that SC has become much bigger, that it's unacceptable for cheaters to be taking qualifying spots over honest and more deserving players that are working hard to get good at this game/e-sport. So yes, they do need to 100% be put under the gun so to speak.
Okay there are several things blatantly false in this analysis...
@ 16:02: This makes sense to me seeing as p probably has either the main or the nat, but ok.
@ 17:02: I have no idea what you're talking about. He had already set them up to go to the bottom left corner and then towards the bottom right main at about 16:06. It's obvious from the replay that when he does select them at ~17:11, he does in fact click on the minimap right before, because the screen jumps over there before he even selects them.
@ 16:43 I have spam pause/played through these couple of seconds time and time again, and he never selects the dropships. Here's a pro tip, replays don't always display the players selections in case you have selected something on your own. Grab something from the opponent and return to the fpview of spades in order to see his real selections.
Besides, every maphack that I'm aware of does prevents the recording of selections (just like camera position) while in camera lock. That was the single most useful thing in broodwar, finding out someone had selected something they couldn't have vision of. If you use camera lock, this can't happen. The side effect of this is that when someone is in camera lock mode, it will look like they are doing absolutely nothing. No selections, no moving around the screen, and most certainly not issuing commands because all maphacks with cam lock functionality will snap out of camera lock if you issue any commands.
@ 16:51 People do this all the time.. I'm no pro, but I issue drop commands via the minimap. What's even suspicious about that?
@ 16:52-17:02 Nothing really spectacular here. Again he doesn't touch his dropships at this point. By "randomly spamming" you mean positioning some troops, setting rallies, checking on an upgrade, while supply capped and having his two drops on route? I don't know what else he's supposed to do. He's moving his screen around so it's not camera lock anyway.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Really, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal matters, when jail time is involved. The standard for civil matters, like breach of contract or deceptive business practices, is "preponderance of the evidence". It is a much lower standard of proof requiring that it be at least 50% more likely that the person is responsable for the action they are accused of. Because we are only talking about people losing money and not jail time, the standard would be far lower than that in a criminal case.
This is really the standard people should be using, from my professional opinion. No criminal action was commited and he did not physicially harm someone. We are only talking about money and for that, we do not need 100% proof Spades was hacking. All that should be needed is that is more likely than not that he was hacking in some games. That is enough proof for me to demand that he be barred from touranments.
Faith in humanity restored. Thanks, I was saying basically the same thing. The problem is you have a lot of people in here under 18 years old who really have no concept of justice other than what they see in cartoons and movies.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
I think we're on the same side here, I was rebutting what Benjamin99 was saying.
Yeah, I know, don't worry. It's just overwhelming how stupid a lot of people on TL have become as of lately.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
LOL, ok I'll bite. What "reasonable doubt?"
It shouldn't be surprising to me that the same 3 people are still using these failed excuses to defend Spades. Which one of you is him? Which ones are his friends? Just curious, because there's no way you're not bias in this at this point. The evidence is too strong.
EPT
