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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all.
Yes I know this, but I'm saying while this is going on his drop at the north is unloading and instead of microing it immediately he snaps his camera to the south dropships, shows him spam clicking on a place where the expansion is, sets the drop command BEFORE he gets vision of a base that he has no idea exists. Why drop everything out at a base where you don't know if anything is there if you have another drop at the north that needs attention at the same time? Why not queue up the medivacs at the south to continue towards the natural of the protoss instead of dropping units out right there?
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On June 07 2012 03:36 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all. Really now? You just randomly queue up drops (including unload, not just moving to check if maybe theres a base) to a supposedly empty base? And upon seeing that theres a base there, you don't even look at it?
Can someone link the replay? or is it from the OP?
This does not at all lead to hacking, dudes
Spades himself says he's not the greatest gamer of all times, he might have just assumed there was a base. stop arguing over this and find better evidence. Please.
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On June 07 2012 03:36 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all. Really now? You just randomly queue up drops (including unload, not just moving to check if maybe theres a base) to a supposedly empty base? And upon seeing that theres a base there, you don't even look at it?
Yes?
It would only be weird if it was 10 mins in, his first drop and protoss went for a fast 3rd hidden cheesy base. There was a pretty good chance he had that base.
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On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
I don't think anybody is defending him, we are just correcting people who claim to have come across more evidence of hacking.
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On June 07 2012 03:38 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all. Yes I know this, but I'm saying while this is going on his drop at the north is unloading and instead of microing it immediately he snaps his camera to the south dropships and d-clicks on the medivacs to unload while moving instead of a queued up drop command BEFORE he gets vision of a base that he has no idea exists. Why drop everything out at a base where you don't know if anything is there if you have another drop at the north that needs attention at the same time? Why not queue up the medivacs at the south to continue towards the normal third base of the protoss instead of dropping units out right there?
He can see on the minimap if there is no base and just move on. If there was defense like a turret or a cannon (still didnt see the replay) he can continue droppin so the marines take the fire and his medevaks (OOOooooops =) ) are fine. better than moving there and running into turrets and having to retreat i guess.
Still no evidence
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On June 07 2012 03:26 gasmeter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:23 scDeluX wrote:On June 07 2012 03:16 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:14 artanis2 wrote:
Yes, this is the 100% proof. Great job avilo! I watched it a few times thinking you were wrong, but you can clearly see the previously queued command is removed from the unit and a new command is given. Fuck you spades. Fuck hacking. It is because of replies like this one that this thread should be closed. Thread should not be closed, stop it already. People are making research and others are proofing them, The Avilo "proof" is not 100% but it's post like thoses that are helping, not yours. I am not saying that this shouldn't be discussed, as has already been done for the last 240 pages. Comments like 'F*** you spades. F*** hacking.' is very inappropriate and should be kept to oneself.
Really? 100% proof of hacking isn't enough to tell someone to go fuck themselves?
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On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
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On June 07 2012 03:40 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all. Yes I know this, but I'm saying while this is going on his drop at the north is unloading and instead of microing it immediately he snaps his camera to the south dropships and d-clicks on the medivacs to unload while moving instead of a queued up drop command BEFORE he gets vision of a base that he has no idea exists. Why drop everything out at a base where you don't know if anything is there if you have another drop at the north that needs attention at the same time? Why not queue up the medivacs at the south to continue towards the normal third base of the protoss instead of dropping units out right there? He can see on the minimap if there is no base and just move on. If there was defense like a turret or a cannon (still didnt see the replay) he can continue droppin so the marines take the fire and his medevaks (OOOooooops =) ) are fine. better than moving there and running into turrets and having to retreat i guess. Still no evidence
If you didn't see the replay why are you commenting?
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On June 07 2012 03:40 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:26 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:23 scDeluX wrote:On June 07 2012 03:16 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:14 artanis2 wrote:
Yes, this is the 100% proof. Great job avilo! I watched it a few times thinking you were wrong, but you can clearly see the previously queued command is removed from the unit and a new command is given. Fuck you spades. Fuck hacking. It is because of replies like this one that this thread should be closed. Thread should not be closed, stop it already. People are making research and others are proofing them, The Avilo "proof" is not 100% but it's post like thoses that are helping, not yours. I am not saying that this shouldn't be discussed, as has already been done for the last 240 pages. Comments like 'F*** you spades. F*** hacking.' is very inappropriate and should be kept to oneself. Really? 100% proof of hacking isn't enough to tell someone to go fuck themselves?
Calm down, that was an oversight by avilo on the rallies, he has already changed his stance regarding those. Its hardly 100% proof.
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On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question.
Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating. If this was someone who is held in high regard by the community, then I could imagine posting every few seconds in his defense. But with Spades I'm not sure why.
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On June 07 2012 03:40 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:26 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:23 scDeluX wrote:On June 07 2012 03:16 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:14 artanis2 wrote:
Yes, this is the 100% proof. Great job avilo! I watched it a few times thinking you were wrong, but you can clearly see the previously queued command is removed from the unit and a new command is given. Fuck you spades. Fuck hacking. It is because of replies like this one that this thread should be closed. Thread should not be closed, stop it already. People are making research and others are proofing them, The Avilo "proof" is not 100% but it's post like thoses that are helping, not yours. I am not saying that this shouldn't be discussed, as has already been done for the last 240 pages. Comments like 'F*** you spades. F*** hacking.' is very inappropriate and should be kept to oneself. Really? 100% proof of hacking isn't enough to tell someone to go fuck themselves?
My post is merely stating that I do not think we should be using inappropriate language when discussing something as serious as this.
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On June 07 2012 03:41 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:40 schaf wrote:On June 07 2012 03:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:34 the p00n wrote:On June 07 2012 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 03:25 Ameisenmann wrote:
I don't think there needs to be more evidence than that he queues up 2 medivacs to unload at an unscouted, hidden base without ever looking at it. Theres litteraly no reason he would normally ever do that. If he wouldn't see it, he'd move the medivacs to another base and maybe accidentially scout the hidden one, look at the medivacs, select them and THEN unload. But no. Because he sees everything he just does it blindly. I think this is the most important point in the entire replay. He sets them to unload before he ever gets vision of the base while his other drop is landing at the north. Shouldn't he be microing that or sending the medivacs at the south to the normal third base location instead? Why is it weird that he unloads before he gets vision? If you issue the 'unload' command you can easily cancel it by just issueing a new order to your medivacs (to move them to another base you think he may have taken). You can also just box everything and right-click your medivacs to instantly load up. You barely lose any time at all. Yes I know this, but I'm saying while this is going on his drop at the north is unloading and instead of microing it immediately he snaps his camera to the south dropships and d-clicks on the medivacs to unload while moving instead of a queued up drop command BEFORE he gets vision of a base that he has no idea exists. Why drop everything out at a base where you don't know if anything is there if you have another drop at the north that needs attention at the same time? Why not queue up the medivacs at the south to continue towards the normal third base of the protoss instead of dropping units out right there? He can see on the minimap if there is no base and just move on. If there was defense like a turret or a cannon (still didnt see the replay) he can continue droppin so the marines take the fire and his medevaks (OOOooooops =) ) are fine. better than moving there and running into turrets and having to retreat i guess. Still no evidence If you didn't see the replay why are you commenting?
Because it's just about dropping; you're welcome to link me the replay. I can't dig through 250 pages 
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On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That´s Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
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On June 07 2012 03:42 recallsm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:26 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:23 scDeluX wrote:On June 07 2012 03:16 gasmeter wrote:On June 07 2012 03:14 artanis2 wrote:
Yes, this is the 100% proof. Great job avilo! I watched it a few times thinking you were wrong, but you can clearly see the previously queued command is removed from the unit and a new command is given. Fuck you spades. Fuck hacking. It is because of replies like this one that this thread should be closed. Thread should not be closed, stop it already. People are making research and others are proofing them, The Avilo "proof" is not 100% but it's post like thoses that are helping, not yours. I am not saying that this shouldn't be discussed, as has already been done for the last 240 pages. Comments like 'F*** you spades. F*** hacking.' is very inappropriate and should be kept to oneself. Really? 100% proof of hacking isn't enough to tell someone to go fuck themselves? Calm down, that was an oversight by avilo on the rallies, he has already changed his stance regarding those. Its hardly 100% proof.
And I already changed my post as well.
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Once a hacker, always a hacker.. The guy was busted back in BW for hacking, how big of a stretch is it that he would hack in SC2? Hackers don't reform, they just improve their methods so they aren't detectable. The fact that WW dropped him (or he quit) right after this story broke shouldn't be taken for granted.
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On June 07 2012 03:42 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question. Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating.
LOL i defending him??? ^^ No im not im sure he hacked ^^ I want to see a proof thats 100%. To ruin this guy.
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Ok, quick video I did on the drop at the bottom of the base Avilo was referring to, hopefully explaining to those that want to see without the replay what's being talked about.
Again if the video is too off base of incorrect just let me know or PM me, I'll delete it no problem.
@Avilo: If you're planning on doing one yourself or disagree with what I've presented definitely let me know as this was mainly your post I was going off
http://www.twitch.tv/tahkira/b/320565050
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On June 07 2012 03:41 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Don't tell me you've never dropped at a third base, without knowing if it's even there, because 17 minutes into a game, I would probably assume that he's got a third up by then, as well.
They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Who the hell would unload a Medivac at an expansion and then rally the empty Medivac into the main of their opponent? And furthermore, how is a third base, 17 minutes into a game hidden?
I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question.
Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating. If this was someone who is held in high regard by the community, then I could imagine posting every few seconds in his defense. But with Spades I'm not sure why.
Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. There's no proof. There's a lot of evidence and split opinions, but no proof. Take a good luck at the thread about a guy named "Zack" from North America who's invited to the WCS qualifiers, he's hacking, there's proof, but I won't spoil anything for you, so head over to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704
Just off the record, I personally am not defending Spades, because I do not know if he's hacking. What I do know, is that as of yet, we've not found any proof of that he does. That does not mean that I don't think he's hacking, that just means that I'm not willing as of yet to take the next step and say "he's hacking."
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On June 07 2012 03:42 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question. Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating. If this was someone who is held in high regard by the community, then I could imagine posting every few seconds in his defense. But with Spades I'm not sure why.
It's not about who he is, it's about people making false statements that are easily debunked. Stop supporting your accusations with exaggerations that are simply untrue, you would never gain any credibility in court that way.
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On June 07 2012 03:44 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:42 Dante_A_ wrote:On June 07 2012 03:37 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote:
That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse! Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely) I can't understand why so many people have come to Spades defense (regardless of the proof). This guy was a hacker in BW who lied about it for a long time. His former RGN team manager says he personally saw him stream cheat. His former teammate says he doesn't believe Spades could have gotten the ladder results he did without cheating. Other pros have cast his character into question. Regardless of the proof, how is THIS a guy that gets such fervent community support in his defense. Even if he wasn't hacking against Lucifron, I wouldn't approve of him because of the stream cheating. LOL i defending him??? ^^ No im not im sure he hacked ^^ I want to see a proof thats 100%. To ruin this guy.
Sorry for quoting your post - I didn't mean it as a direct reply.
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EPT
