07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That´s Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
No it isnt impossible they must overlooked something with this program somewhere it must be. Otherwise everyone with strange mechanics can be the next dude getting fucked up by the community
Unfortunately, the rest of us live in this place called "the real world". And in this "real world" there is NEVER 100% proof.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Don't tell me you've never dropped at a third base, without knowing if it's even there, because 17 minutes into a game, I would probably assume that he's got a third up by then, as well.
They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Who the hell would unload a Medivac at an expansion and then rally the empty Medivac into the main of their opponent? And furthermore, how is a third base, 17 minutes into a game hidden?
You have not watched the replay.
Please stop telling people that they've not watched the replays, just because you don't agree.
You do not know when to quit. Had you watched the replay, you would know that
a) the expansion was not in the usual third location. b) that the medivacs were waypointed to the hidden base, and not the main. What the medivacs were supposed to do afterward is irrelevant c) It was a fourth base, not a third.
I disagree with the Disclaimer at the top of the thread. If it was anyone else I might say they deserve the benifit of the doubt, but not Spades.
Why? He hacked in BW was caught hacking and then refused to admit it when confronted with overwhelming evidence. This means the guy will lie to your face about things that you know are true. Other hackers caught the same way all admitted they hacked up when accused. Not Spades he was the one innocent person caught in a wave of hackers that were all caught the same way.
If TT1 (another BW hacker) did this I would give him the benifit of innocent until proven guilty, but Spades never showed the responsibility to desrve that in BW, so he doesn't deserve it in SC2 either.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Really, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal matters, when jail time is involved. The standard for civil matters, like breach of contract or deceptive business practices, is "preponderance of the evidence". It is a much lower standard of proof requiring that it be at least 50% more likely that the person is responsable for the action they are accused of. Because we are only talking about people losing money and not jail time, the standard would be far lower than that in a criminal case.
This is really the standard people should be using, from my professional opinion. No criminal action was commited and he did not physicially harm someone. We are only talking about money and for that, we do not need 100% proof Spades was hacking. All that should be needed is that is more likely than not that he was hacking in some games. That is enough proof for me to demand that he be barred from touranments.
Faith in humanity restored. Thanks, I was saying basically the same thing. The problem is you have a lot of people in here under 18 years old who really have no concept of justice other than what they see in cartoons and movies.
it's a little deeper than that
the bigger problem is that this is the first instance (at least, that i'm aware of) of a pro player being caught hacking in SC2, and all the new blood doesn't even know what the cues of a player who's maphacking and trying to conceal it looks like
On June 07 2012 03:45 Battleaxe wrote: Ok, quick video I did on the drop at the bottom of the base Avilo was referring to, hopefully explaining to those that want to see without the replay what's being talked about.
Again if the video is too off base of incorrect just let me know or PM me, I'll delete it no problem. @Avilo: If you're planning on doing one yourself or disagree with what I've presented definitely let me know as this was mainly your post I was going off
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
LOL, ok I'll bite. What "reasonable doubt?"
It shouldn't be surprising to me that the same 3 people are still using these failed excuses to defend Spades. Which one of you is him? Which ones are his friends? Just curious, because there's no way you're not bias in this at this point. The evidence is too strong.
Im sure he hacked but want a proof to caught him and everyone after him to make hacks invalid on the long run as well ... Sorry for trying to get this out of the once and for all ^^
Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.png If people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156 EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.
Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Not saying he isn't hacking, but his actions do cast doubt on it as evidence of hacking.
Well, your post already points out most of the things that tip the scales in favour of him hacking so you must be aware of the issues. Had he just rallied a medivac somewhere in search of a hidden base, that would not be convincing because of the scan of a usual third. Being very detailed about the drop location and timing, though, requires a much more detailed explanation to constitute reasonable doubt. This is entombed, he had a choice between 10 possible hidden base locations.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
Not when he has already hacked.
Maybe for a first time offender, but once you hack once and are caught (and lie about it repeatedly), you lose the good faith of the community. I think 80% probability of hacking is enough for his SC2 career to be over (what little he had).
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
LOL, ok I'll bite. What "reasonable doubt?"
It shouldn't be surprising to me that the same 3 people are still using these failed excuses to defend Spades. Which one of you is him? Which ones are his friends? Just curious, because there's no way you're not bias in this at this point. The evidence is too strong.
Im sure he hacked but want a proof to caught him and everyone after him to make hacks invalid on the long run as well ... Sorry for trying to get this out of the once and for all ^^
Well that is actually never going to happen. Honestly if more evidence was needed than what we already have then all pro players might as well maphack in all online events. Since there will never be the 100% proof that some people seem to require.
Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I believe I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. But, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.png If people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156 EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection.
Interesting, I was thinking the exact same thing, but there is an easier (less painful) way to determine conclusively if a hack was used with a similar method. You only need to count the length/width in pixels of the minimap, which gives you a click-grid. Then you need to figure out the length/width of the entire play area, and figure out the ratio between the two. This gives you a scaling factor-- any clicks made on the minimap will have to be AT A MINIMUM, x pixels (i.e. the scaling factor) away (in the actual map) from any other clicks made on the minimap. If we can find any example at all of, when a players cam is locked, of clicks made closer together than this, you have conclusive proof of maphacking.
This has the advantage over the previous method in that you don't need to figure out which pixels are 'grid pixels' and you don't need to care about what resolution someone was using. It has the slight disadvantage in that it requires two alleged minimap-clicks to occur closely together (time and distance)
EDIT: this may be difficult if the hack ceases camera lock, and jumps to a location if clicks are made
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
We do not. You'll find that courts of law require guilt to be established beyond reasonable doubt. I look forward to someone providing a reasonable doubt explanation to those dropships. They were rallied to only one base on the map, not even en route to the main, and an unload command was given only to the one base that had a hidden expo.
Really, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal matters, when jail time is involved. The standard for civil matters, like breach of contract or deceptive business practices, is "preponderance of the evidence". It is a much lower standard of proof requiring that it be at least 50% more likely that the person is responsable for the action they are accused of. Because we are only talking about people losing money and not jail time, the standard would be far lower than that in a criminal case.
This is really the standard people should be using, from my professional opinion. No criminal action was commited and he did not physicially harm someone. We are only talking about money and for that, we do not need 100% proof Spades was hacking. All that should be needed is that is more likely than not that he was hacking in some games. That is enough proof for me to demand that he be barred from touranments.
Faith in humanity restored. Thanks, I was saying basically the same thing. The problem is you have a lot of people in here under 18 years old who really have no concept of justice other than what they see in cartoons and movies.
it's a little deeper than that
the bigger problem is that this is the first instance (at least, that i'm aware of) of a pro player being caught hacking in SC2, and all the new blood doesn't even know what the cues of a player who's maphacking and trying to conceal it looks like
Also very correct. Maybe it's because I've played like 5000k masters level games since Beta, but its usually pretty clear when someone has an unseen advantage vs just getting lucky here and there.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.
Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
Just an FYI: You don't be a strawman, you create strawmen out of the enemy to tear them down easier.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
LOL, ok I'll bite. What "reasonable doubt?"
It shouldn't be surprising to me that the same 3 people are still using these failed excuses to defend Spades. Which one of you is him? Which ones are his friends? Just curious, because there's no way you're not bias in this at this point. The evidence is too strong.
My reasonable doubt is that most of the arguments that haven't been shown to be false, such as Avilo's waypoint proof, or Catz's magic scans are all much like your question/accusation here. They seem to assume a result and then argue a path to get there. I don't know Spades, but I'm not a huge fan of railroading and terrible arguments.
I defended him at first because I believe in the benefit of the doubt. But enough is enough. Everyone has seen the "evidence", those who still defend him always will, and those who thinks he hacks won't change their mind either. Do I THINK he hacks? Yea, if I had to put money on it one way or the other. Would I convict him in a court of law, hypothetically? Absolutely not. 100% of the evidence is AT BEST circumstantial, but a lot of it is mere speculation. If he did, though, the sooner he owns up to it the better. Never admitting it AND THEN up and quitting the game is as good as an admission of guilt. That says to me,"I got busted, and while I'm too proud and immature to own up to it, I don't think I can win without cheating, so I may as well not even play".
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.
Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
Ok, im gonna tell you for once and for all why we dont need 100% proof, he got caught in BW based on statistics. he didnt click enemy units in 14 games what are the chances that could happen ? very very little. veredict in BW : guilty.
On June 07 2012 03:35 Benjamin99 wrote: That people are still defending Spades are mindblowing with all this evidence seriously? Dont you understand how serious this is to the competive online scene? And while defending this cheater you are actually making it worse!
Thats not the problem we NEED a 100% proof to be 100% sure to ruin this mans life. Thats how justice systems should be no trade of people who might be innocent. (even if very very very unlikely)
This is not the court of law there is no such thing as 100% proof when you dealign with cheaters in online gaming. That Impossible, but there is however shitloads of evidence to support the claim and its more then enough.
So stop nitpicking you will not get 100% proff ever
True, but at least to those of us that aren't coming into this assuming Spades is guilty, there is plenty of reasonable doubt here, and I like to at least believe I'm a reasonable person.
As I've said a ton of times already, yes, a lot of doubt, a lot of suspicion, but no proof.
Please stop using the term "proof" when none is needed. Your entire premise is false, therefore everything you say based on that premise is without merit. Yet you keep parroting it like eventually it'll be true. Read the posts on this page about standard of proof and please stop posting afterwards.
Listen boy, I'm as much part of this community as you are, and if I say I want proof before I can stand by and watch you judge another player by his actions, then I want it. There's no question about that in a million years, and I hope you're bright enough to realize that my presupposition does not have to mirror yours. Stop being a fucking strawman and understand that if you want to tell me that my premise is wrong, you better fucking tell me why, as well.
Just an FYI: You don't be a strawman, you create strawmen out of the enemy to tear them down easier.
I know what a strawman is, thank you. But if you want to accuse me of not knowing so, go ahead. + Show Spoiler +
You seem to be pretty good at accusing people, after all, or am I wrong? See what I did there? Yeah, a strawman. I'm such a dick.
he didnt click enemy units in 14 games what are the chances that could happen ? very very little. veredict in BW : guilty.
EPT
