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On June 10 2012 17:08 theBOOCH wrote:
That was painful... Flash is just using the cheesiest builds from the beta in TvP. Not that he isn't good, but it's not that he's that much better. Terran is just infinitely micro-able. You can't say that X player has 'godly' micro or whatever when the other player can't micro his units to effectiveness even if he has the skill to do so. I didn't like seeing that. Bad beta flashbacks (no pun intended).
You clearly don't get it.
Sure, proxy marauder was maybe popular in the beta and any progamer should be able to hold it.
That is not the point.
First, just because a build was common in the beta doesn't mean it is bad.
Secondly, you are implying that Bisu would easily counter that if he had more experience.
You are wrong in everything you say.
Forget the beta. Forget all your preconceived ideas and try to see things with an unbiased eye.
The power of the stuff Flash pulled of was that he switched between 14 cc or insane rushes.
He was simply tricking Bisu into going a greedy build.
Did people do that in the beta?
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TLADT24920 Posts
FLASH dominating lol. His games against Soulkey especially the second one were insane. His macro is solid, his micro is great and well, he's such a solid player for the amount of time he had to practice. Even though Jaedong's third game with Bisu was bizzare XD, his creep spread is better than most and he has decent macro as well. Just needs more time for strategies and such 
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On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
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On June 10 2012 17:13 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote:
Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals. Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
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Flash's game vs stork on daybreak.... he kited while snipe HT in between the attack cooldown of the kiting. The level of control is like ridiculous man holy shit
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On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
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On June 10 2012 17:16 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:13 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote:
Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals. Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ. Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group. I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
The only pros that are beating Flash are Code-A/Code-S and maybe a handful of top level foreigners. If you think Flash is losing to any mid-tier pro you're kidding yourself, especially after what everyone just saw. His macro alone would overwhelm most players, even alot of mid-tier pros. It's not like Flash hasn't proven himself incapable of beating some of the better pros out there; he already has.
On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
Bisu didn't lose because of triple Nexus. Bad argument is bad. Flash put ZERO pressure onto Bisu, which allowed Bisu to quick tech to Storm with virtually nothing while taking an extremely fast 3rd and getting a big economy for a 10+ WG Infrastructure. He lost game 1 because of bad army control, not because he made poor decisions. You're logic is astoundingly bad.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
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He won against Stork with a malfunctioning keyboard.
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On June 10 2012 17:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:01 0neder wrote:
Is there any reason concussive is so cheap and so fast to research? -_______- Did you see Bisu's build? Give me a break.
Bisu was punished for being greedy, but my question still stands.
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On June 10 2012 17:18 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game. I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
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On June 10 2012 17:20 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:18 BigFan wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game. I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it. IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE. Flash literally put NO pressure until the 3rd was way saturated.
And people get away with greedy builds all the time. No one that plays high level SC:BW ever played "safe." Flash literally 14 cc's almost every map, and also randomly throws in cheeses. It's actually rare for him to open standard/safe. Jaedong is also notorious for playing ulta greedy. Fantasy has some of the weirdest builds/timings ever. That's just how they play, and they are so good at it because what is unsafe for 99.9% of the population, they can make it work for them.
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On June 10 2012 17:19 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:05 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2012 17:01 0neder wrote:
Is there any reason concussive is so cheap and so fast to research? -_______- Did you see Bisu's build? Give me a break. Bisu was punished for being greedy, but my question still stands.
Bad question.
It is not that fast.
It looked ridiculously fast because he proxied the baracks. A fair trade-off imo. because he has to take a risk.
I could ask the same thing about warp-tech upgrade ...
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On June 10 2012 17:21 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:20 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 BigFan wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game. I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it. IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability. What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit? Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash. You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
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On June 10 2012 17:24 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:21 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:20 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 BigFan wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game. I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it. IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability. What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit? Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash. You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE. "Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning." Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that. That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group. All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER. He only played greedy because he doesn't know any cheeses that work very well against T. Otherwise, he would have cheesed the living fuck out of Flash because that's what he's done almost every time in their past few matches in BW.
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Wow, it's.. wow.. I just felt like I went back in time to the early Starcraft 2, and I brought all of the most amazing BroodWar pros with me.
Then I enter these forums to see BW fanatics exclaiming the end of the current SC2 pros, constant insults, balance whining and an inane discussion over analysis. This really is the new Battle.net forums, and the Battle.net forums is the new forum that shall not be named.
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People need to remember Flash has only been playing for two months...
...And he still finds himself highly deficient in his understanding of the game (he said it'll take a year or two to get to the top).
So long as he keeps improving over the next months, he's going to be a heavey contender in the sc2 pro-scene. Plus his macro was fucking beast.
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On June 10 2012 17:24 Drascus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:21 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:20 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 BigFan wrote:On June 10 2012 17:18 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:15 superstartran wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Drascus wrote:On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote:
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2. Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off. How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game. I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it. IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability. What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit? Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash. You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE. "Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning." Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that. That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group. All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
I guess you didn't see his first game against stork? He punished him so hard for being greedy pulling 10 SCV's with his 7 marines. He seems to have a pretty good idea when he should punish his opponent
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On June 10 2012 17:23 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:19 0neder wrote:On June 10 2012 17:05 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2012 17:01 0neder wrote:
Is there any reason concussive is so cheap and so fast to research? -_______- Did you see Bisu's build? Give me a break. Bisu was punished for being greedy, but my question still stands. Bad question. It is not that fast. It looked ridiculously fast because he proxied the baracks. A fair trade-off imo. because he has to take a risk. I could ask the same thing about warp-tech upgrade ...
Investing in any upgrade should be a meaningful risk/reward decision. What is the risk for researching concussive? You invest almost nothing.
Warp tech is less egregious but I heartily agree it could get longer or move to the twilight council and the game would probably benefit.
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EPT
