On Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), the MLG Spring Championship will play host to the MLG-KeSPA Invitational Tournament, an exhibition event featuring eight top KeSPA pros competing live in StarCraft II for the first time in a US tournament. This is history in the making, folks. We told you which players were coming. Now, here's the bracket.
Please note: this bracket was randomly generated. Apparently, the fates are smiling down upon the world of StarCraft II.
We will be broadcasting the entire event live across four of the Anaheim StarCraft II streams. This is what you will see on majorleaguegaming.com starting at Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00):
Red Stream: Flash vs Stork (cast by Tasteless and Artosis)
Blue Stream: Jaedong vs Leta
SCII Premium 1: Bisu vs Calm
SCII Premium 2: Fantasy vs Soulkey
The Red and Blue streams are free to all in standard definition. To gain access to the two Premium streams, and watch all the streams in ad-free HD, use your Spring Season Pass, your Gold Membership, or buy a Spring Championship Live Streaming Pass. Seriously; it's Bisu vs Calm! FLASH vs STORK! Do you really want to miss any of that? Do you want to watch it in anything less than beautiful, crisp 1080p? Of course you don't.
stork played pretty good sc2 against zero. looking forward to see how he improved. cant wait! fantasy vs soulkey is probably going to be the best 1st round match though.
On June 01 2012 07:40 Defiler1a2a3a4567 wrote: Will replays be available for these games after the event due to them being Kespa players. From my understanding they dont release their replays
these arent really official Kespa games. Just like WCG, IEF, Blizzcon etc
Edit: Hoping for a Fantasy vs Jaedong finals SC2 Edition lol
On June 01 2012 07:43 iNcontroL wrote: but it says
Please note: this bracket was randomly generated. Apparently, the fates are smiling down upon the world of StarCraft II.
are you saying you don't believe them?!!?!
They must have clicked "randomize" 12 times to get that bracket It is sooooo perfect. But they should have clicked one more when Flash had the number 5 next to him heh
Damn, Soulkey vs Fantasy would've made a great final. as it is, I'd say... uh.. I don't know about their TvZ much, but I'd go with Fantasy vs Leta finals, Fantasy winning. I'd say who ever makes it to the finals in the higher half of the bracket will win.
On June 01 2012 08:15 MetalPanda wrote: Damn, Soulkey vs Fantasy would've made a great final. as it is, I'd say... uh.. I don't know about their TvZ much, but I'd go with Fantasy vs Leta finals, Fantasy winning. I'd say who ever makes it to the finals in the higher half of the bracket will win.
... It's SC2 so I don't know where you guys can come off saying this or this would be better other than pure fanboyism.
On June 01 2012 08:19 IamBach wrote: No way are these brackets randomly generated... I mean, I want to believe them, but that is just rather startling.
On June 01 2012 08:15 MetalPanda wrote: Damn, Soulkey vs Fantasy would've made a great final. as it is, I'd say... uh.. I don't know about their TvZ much, but I'd go with Fantasy vs Leta finals, Fantasy winning. I'd say who ever makes it to the finals in the higher half of the bracket will win.
... It's SC2 so I don't know where you guys can come off saying this or this would be better other than pure fanboyism.
I'm watching these proleague match, you know... Edit : I meant, I'm not judging them based on SC1, but I'm judging them on their SC2 skills in the proleague. Didn't get to watch Leta yet so that one is just a near random prediction. I know the lower bracket is weaker in general in SC2 for sure though.
On June 01 2012 08:18 StarStruck wrote: I much rather see these guys playing BW. :/
On June 01 2012 08:15 MetalPanda wrote: Damn, Soulkey vs Fantasy would've made a great final. as it is, I'd say... uh.. I don't know about their TvZ much, but I'd go with Fantasy vs Leta finals, Fantasy winning. I'd say who ever makes it to the finals in the higher half of the bracket will win.
... It's SC2 so I don't know where you guys can come off saying this or this would be better other than pure fanboyism.
I'm watching these proleague match, you know... Edit : I meant, I'm not judging them based on SC1, but I'm judging them on their SC2 skills in the proleague. Didn't get to watch Leta yet so that one is just a near random prediction. I know the lower bracket is weaker in general in SC2 for sure though.
You are basing it off a very small, small sample size.
This will be interesting. They will all be super good or sub-par. Hopefully they do some cool things. (Just curious, do you have to pay to watch this online?)
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
looks hype! but I feel like we're going to be seeing some pretty subpar games in general. The guys who are with Kespa and can play SC2 at a half way decent level are all the no names and this side tournament is big names only, whose attention is split between two games. I think it's great these guys are coming to the states, good for the fans more than anything, I just wish they had spent more time with the game but that's not something that was entirely in their control.
OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap! Heard a lot of things about Soulkey in SC2. Can't wait to see this epic epic tournament. Will probably never see this exact bracket again in sc2. *shudders*
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
Indeed. Hell, I'd put it on the HotS build or here's a thought have OSL games boardcasted there instead.
Btw, why is MLG splitting up every little small piece of news into a single thread o.o? Sure it's not really spam but.. keep one thread and put all news and edit/update it with everything instead ?_?
Want jaedong to win, but think Soulkey will win. He is GM in korea I think. They should've made them play HOTS. It would've made things lot more intereseting.
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
Indeed. Hell, I'd put it on the HotS build or here's a thought have OSL games boardcasted there instead.
On June 01 2012 08:08 Terminal wrote: Yeah, single elim makes me sad x.x
makes sense though. They only have so much time.
Not really, if you manage to get this calibre of players together you MAKE the time for it. This is pretty much the RO8 that dreams are made of.
One prob. This aint Brood War and that's where all those guys shine.
Maybe if they ran into another pro, like one of the many other gosu koreans that are coming to play--- otherwise, no. Even then, "destroyed" is far from what would happen.
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
Indeed. Hell, I'd put it on the HotS build or here's a thought have OSL games boardcasted there instead.
On June 01 2012 08:38 IntoTheheart wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:09 Dontkillme wrote: Put them through the open bracket. It will be fun to watch :D
Don't know how well they'd do...
They would get destroyed. That's why they're doing an invitational.
On June 01 2012 08:57 moochu wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:08 Terminal wrote: Yeah, single elim makes me sad x.x
makes sense though. They only have so much time.
Not really, if you manage to get this calibre of players together you MAKE the time for it. This is pretty much the RO8 that dreams are made of.
One prob. This aint Brood War and that's where all those guys shine.
Maybe if they ran into another pro, like one of the many other gosu koreans that are coming to play--- otherwise, no. Even then, "destroyed" is far from what would happen.
No, quite the chance someone could conjure some obscure build they never seen, given their minimal experience. Diamond player almost beat Korean SC2 player in open brackets, and anything like that happening to some of them is simply unfair given their market value their earned for themselves. Thats not even playing field, they have 1 month worth of true SC2 practice, thats a gap no amount of talent can hop.
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
Indeed. Hell, I'd put it on the HotS build or here's a thought have OSL games boardcasted there instead.
On June 01 2012 08:38 IntoTheheart wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:09 Dontkillme wrote: Put them through the open bracket. It will be fun to watch :D
Don't know how well they'd do...
They would get destroyed. That's why they're doing an invitational.
On June 01 2012 08:57 moochu wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:08 Terminal wrote: Yeah, single elim makes me sad x.x
makes sense though. They only have so much time.
Not really, if you manage to get this calibre of players together you MAKE the time for it. This is pretty much the RO8 that dreams are made of.
One prob. This aint Brood War and that's where all those guys shine.
Maybe if they ran into another pro, like one of the many other gosu koreans that are coming to play--- otherwise, no. Even then, "destroyed" is far from what would happen.
No, quite the chance someone could conjure some obscure build they never seen, given their minimal experience. Diamond player almost beat Korean SC2 player in open brackets, and anything like that happening to some of them is simply unfair given their market value their earned for themselves. Thats not even playing field, they have 1 month worth of true SC2 practice, thats a gap no amount of talent can hop.
No, no diamond player NA player would ever beat any of them at MLG. Only a GM/High Master NA player might be able to beat them (even then, very unlikely for the masters), and of course the other pros could/should.
I've already said it before, these guys are ALL high masters+ on KR. A High Masters on KR could EASILY make GM on NA. In fact, mid masters on KR could also potentially make GM. That's just how much more competitive it is.
The naivete of this forum astounds me, these guys are progamers. They watch replays, they have a coach, they train with a team, they have high level mechanics from a very similar game, they have other Korean pros to learn from. They don't play 10 games and call it a day, they play 30+ games a day to train. The Korean server has much more diversity in builds, all-around.
This game does NOT take years and years of practice to learn, contrary to believe, when you are coming from a similar game like BW. Especially when you are in a teamhouse and capable of learning with many other players/being helped by others.
On June 01 2012 08:18 sM.Zik wrote: Single elimination is a joke..
Since this is the most relevant tournament in SC2 history it should be bo7 from the beginning with a bo23 final in a brand new triple elimination format.
This stuff is just for show and the games are probably going to be lackluster.
If you want great play wait for the later rounds of the actual MLG tournament...
Indeed. Hell, I'd put it on the HotS build or here's a thought have OSL games boardcasted there instead.
On June 01 2012 08:38 IntoTheheart wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:09 Dontkillme wrote: Put them through the open bracket. It will be fun to watch :D
Don't know how well they'd do...
They would get destroyed. That's why they're doing an invitational.
On June 01 2012 08:57 moochu wrote:
On June 01 2012 08:08 Terminal wrote: Yeah, single elim makes me sad x.x
makes sense though. They only have so much time.
Not really, if you manage to get this calibre of players together you MAKE the time for it. This is pretty much the RO8 that dreams are made of.
One prob. This aint Brood War and that's where all those guys shine.
Maybe if they ran into another pro, like one of the many other gosu koreans that are coming to play--- otherwise, no. Even then, "destroyed" is far from what would happen.
No, quite the chance someone could conjure some obscure build they never seen, given their minimal experience. Diamond player almost beat Korean SC2 player in open brackets, and anything like that happening to some of them is simply unfair given their market value their earned for themselves. Thats not even playing field, they have 1 month worth of true SC2 practice, thats a gap no amount of talent can hop.
Exactly and that's why we're separating them to even the level playing field even though it's artificial because some teams have been practicing a little longer, but that's beside the point.
These guys are going to need more time to settle in. It would be much more fun if they were doing this special tournament on HotS.
Would have been excited if this was broodwar it has been a long time since I have seen Flash v Stork in a bw match . Anyway here is hoping that the games will be interesting and viewers won't be disappointed .
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
On June 01 2012 11:25 Cloak wrote: I don't get why they're pushing the BW Pros so soon. They probably need more time to practice. Let them be so they can floor us in 2-3 months.
Why not? Of course they need more time to practice, but I'm excited to see them play anyway!
My take on the matchups (there might be some OSL spoilers): + Show Spoiler +
Fantasy vs Soulkey Fantasy played BW in proleague on 29th and OSL on 30th. Having being sent out for BW, he has to play SC2 in proleague on the 3rd. This give him more than 1 week of SC2 practice (31st to 8th) leading to MLG. Soulkey unlike Fantasy played SC2 in proleague on 29th and as such has to play BW in proleague on the 2nd (unless he is not registered to play). Moreover, he has to play in a OSL tiebreaker with 2 other Zergs on the 5th. Going by the amount of time to practice, Fantasy has a massive advantage. As for form and strategy wise, Fantasy won BByong in a unconvincing TvT while Soulkey is 1-1 against protoss. Fantasy to win in a close encounter, the question is whether he goes bio + Show Spoiler +
Flash vs Stork Like Soulkey, Flash has a OSL tiebreaker to play on the same day and has to play BW in proleague. Stork is out of OSL and played BW in his last proleague game. LIke Fantasy, he has a whole week to focus only on SC2. Form wise, both are 0-1 against zerg. As of now, Flash looks ahead in his TvT matchup (He lost TvZ against an impressive Effort) but his TvP seems shaky judging from his comments and rumoured vod of him against desrow. Stork seemed clueless about late game protoss from his match against Zero and if we were to believe what Coach January has been saying about the level of SC2 in Samsung house, I give the edge to Flash unless Stork finds some cheese to punish his 14cc.
Bisu vs Calm Bisu said if he had forcefields and he would never lose. He played a PvP against hero and lost, having his units trapped by forcefields and picked off. Both Bisu and Calm have no OSL to worry about and they do not have BW obligations in the next proleague match (Bisu played BW previously and Calm has not appeared since playing BW in opening day) and have all the time in the world to prepare for Anaheim. Too little match data as well. When in doubt, pick protoss.
Leta vs Jaedong Expect cheese from Leta or at least 2 port banshee. CJ Entus seems ahead of the pack at the moment in terms of SC2 having won all 3 SC2 Bo3 (2-1, 2-0 and 2-1) and in Effort (who destroyed Flash), Leta has arguably the best TvZ practice partner available in Kespa right now. Jaedong came off to a slow start going 0-2 in SC2 against protoss and zerg before destroying Lizzy (rumoured to be the best SC2 player in the league right now). The potential is there but how will he do against a abusive terran? Leta is eligible to play SC2 in the next proleague match but Jaedong has to play BW and he will certainly practice and (unlike the other players mentioned above that are only eligible to play BW) he will most certainly appear for Team 8 because of their lack of depth. The odds are against Jaedong but just because he is the Tyrant I think he will prevail.
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
From the OP it really sounds like premium is payed tough.
The Red and Blue streams are free to all in standard definition. To gain access to the two Premium streams, and watch all the streams in ad-free HD, use your Spring Season Pass, your Gold Membership, or buy a Spring Championship Live Streaming Pass. Seriously; it's Bisu vs Calm! FLASH vs STORK! Do you really want to miss any of that? Do you want to watch it in anything less than beautiful, crisp 1080p? Of course you don't.
What i can understand here is "You want Bisu vs Calm? Premium only".
So 6 players travel to Anaheim with the chance of not playing SC2 on main stage infront of all the fans that went to the event to see their favorite play? That sucks.
On June 01 2012 16:45 lightsentry wrote: Has fantasy been playing that much sc2? I don't recall him ever playing it in proleague...but I could be mistaken (probably am).
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
Cool! Then I'll maybe tune in for Jaedong's games... I haven't missed a game he has played in five years, so it would be weird to not see these.
On June 01 2012 16:45 lightsentry wrote: Has fantasy been playing that much sc2? I don't recall him ever playing it in proleague...but I could be mistaken (probably am).
On June 01 2012 16:45 lightsentry wrote: Has fantasy been playing that much sc2? I don't recall him ever playing it in proleague...but I could be mistaken (probably am).
He looked rather bad at SC2 with the exception of his stutter step micro :p
On June 01 2012 17:02 shawty wrote: I'm assuming that the final will be on the free stream. MLG wouldn't be that dumb...right?
No reason to hype up these players coming over and playing at an MLG if you're gonna put the finals behind a paywall. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be on a free stream.
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
Cool! Then I'll maybe tune in for Jaedong's games... I haven't missed a game he has played in five years, so it would be weird to not see these.
Read OP?
To gain access to the two Premium streams, and watch all the streams in ad-free HD, use your Spring Season Pass, your Gold Membership, or buy a Spring Championship Live Streaming Pass. Seriously; it's Bisu vs Calm! FLASH vs STORK!
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
They didn't say anything about all streams being free? Here's the quote from the announcement thread:
Every match will be cast in this single elimination 8 man tournament. There will be multiple free streams for this event as well as first person POV for those that are on main stage (free).
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
They didn't say anything about all streams being free? Here's the quote from the announcement thread:
Every match will be cast in this single elimination 8 man tournament. There will be multiple free streams for this event as well as first person POV for those that are on main stage (free).
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
They didn't say anything about all streams being free? Here's the quote from the announcement thread:
Every match will be cast in this single elimination 8 man tournament. There will be multiple free streams for this event as well as first person POV for those that are on main stage (free).
On June 01 2012 18:02 fcb10 wrote: sooo... what are they playing for? no prizepool?
That isn't how bw/kespa works, it has never been about the prizepool but the pride, I don't even know if they announce the prize pools of OSLs etc, I certainly couldnt tell you how much they gave out for starleagues/proleagues. Though I reckon the team takes pretty sizable cut. In this case, I think it is likely MLG just paying kespa an appearance fee
On June 01 2012 12:46 chawinski wrote: So premium games are paywalled? i.e. Bisu vs Calm?
No, in a previous thread I believe it was confirmed that all these games will be free. The name of the stream is only coincidental (they use those names for the normal MLG games)
They didn't say anything about all streams being free? Here's the quote from the announcement thread:
Every match will be cast in this single elimination 8 man tournament. There will be multiple free streams for this event as well as first person POV for those that are on main stage (free).
On Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), the MLG Spring Championship will play host to the MLG-KeSPA Invitational Tournament, an exhibition event featuring eight top KeSPA pros competing live in StarCraft II for the first time in a US tournament. This is history in the making, folks. We told you which players were coming. Now, here's the bracket.
Please note: this bracket was randomly generated. Apparently, the fates are smiling down upon the world of StarCraft II.
We will be broadcasting the entire event live across four of the Anaheim StarCraft II streams. This is what you will see on majorleaguegaming.com starting at Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00):
Red Stream:Flash vs Stork(cast by Tasteless and Artosis)
Blue Stream: Jaedong vs Leta
SCII Premium 1: Bisu vs Calm
SCII Premium 2: Fantasy vs Soulkey
The above suggests that Flash vs Stork will be free.
On June 01 2012 07:37 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The Red and Blue streams are free to all in standard definition. To gain access to the two Premium streams, and watch all the streams in ad-free HD, use your Spring Season Pass, your Gold Membership, or buy a Spring Championship Live Streaming Pass. Seriously; it's Bisu vs Calm!FLASH vs STORK! Do you really want to miss any of that? Do you want to watch it in anything less than beautiful, crisp 1080p? Of course you don't.
On Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), the MLG Spring Championship will play host to the MLG-KeSPA Invitational Tournament, an exhibition event featuring eight top KeSPA pros competing live in StarCraft II for the first time in a US tournament. This is history in the making, folks. We told you which players were coming. Now, here's the bracket.
Please note: this bracket was randomly generated. Apparently, the fates are smiling down upon the world of StarCraft II.
We will be broadcasting the entire event live across four of the Anaheim StarCraft II streams. This is what you will see on majorleaguegaming.com starting at Sunday, Jun 10 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00):
Red Stream:Flash vs Stork(cast by Tasteless and Artosis)
Blue Stream: Jaedong vs Leta
SCII Premium 1: Bisu vs Calm
SCII Premium 2: Fantasy vs Soulkey
The above suggests that Flash vs Stork will be free.
On June 01 2012 07:37 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The Red and Blue streams are free to all in standard definition. To gain access to the two Premium streams, and watch all the streams in ad-free HD, use your Spring Season Pass, your Gold Membership, or buy a Spring Championship Live Streaming Pass. Seriously; it's Bisu vs Calm!FLASH vs STORK! Do you really want to miss any of that? Do you want to watch it in anything less than beautiful, crisp 1080p? Of course you don't.
Kind of surprised they went for a Single Elimination bracket on basically an exhibition showmatch. You'd expect a round robin kind of thing to make sure everyone plays eachother and the fans get what they want.
On June 01 2012 08:15 MetalPanda wrote: Damn, Soulkey vs Fantasy would've made a great final. as it is, I'd say... uh.. I don't know about their TvZ much, but I'd go with Fantasy vs Leta finals, Fantasy winning. I'd say who ever makes it to the finals in the higher half of the bracket will win.
... It's SC2 so I don't know where you guys can come off saying this or this would be better other than pure fanboyism.
I was thinking the same thing, this whole move to SC2 seems a bit rushed for whatever reason. And I think it's weird how much MLG seems to despise manually making brackets, it seems to be an option that is far better than the random generated ones. I mean, ya it worked out this time, but a lot of players have gotten hit hard by it.
On June 01 2012 07:59 PowerDes wrote: Is this double elim?
I hope so. If it's single elimination they've flown some of them there for just a Bo3. Seems like a waste.
Well they will likely be there to watch the tourney too...
Single elimination has to be done, it starts at 9PM For them. If they didn't do single, they would be up until three am. That would definitely reduce tastosis' ability to cast effectively guys.
On June 01 2012 18:02 fcb10 wrote: sooo... what are they playing for? no prizepool?
It's just exhibition anyway, nobody can really derive anything from results as long as they still play BW.
Honestly most of them barely play BW. An overwhelming majority of there time (around 80%) is spent practicing SC2. The reason you cant derive anything from results is because they have only been playing for a few months and thats not enough time to catch up to people who have been playing for years.
On June 01 2012 21:27 Hadley_ wrote: I and most people don't know 95% of the bracket
Get a clue then.
Couldn't care less. If I would care about mediocre sc2-players I would watch Incontrol and IdrA...
Man you are so cool acting like a dick. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean 95% of the people don't know them lol. Don't write here and please don't watch them play as I don't want to read your comments in the thread. Thank you in advance!
Dont mean tot be a debbie downer but as much as I'm a fan of Calm, Effort, Zero or Jangbi would have been better choices. I wish they made it that much more epicwith the 4 players in the semi's seeded into pool play... Man can drea though -.-
On June 01 2012 21:27 Hadley_ wrote: I and most people don't know 95% of the bracket
Get a clue then.
Couldn't care less. If I would care about mediocre sc2-players I would watch Incontrol and IdrA...
Man you are so cool acting like a dick. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean 95% of the people don't know them lol. Don't write here and please don't watch them play as I don't want to read your comments in the thread. Thank you in advance!
No dude. It's absolutely vital to his existence that he lets everybody know how much he doesn't care. If someone were to suspect for one second that he cared, it would completely destroy him. We should spread the word for his sake. GUYS. HE DOESN'T CARE. Just letting everyone know!
I just want to thank MLG for doing what they do! THank you so much for bringing so much excitement to the viewers and THANK YOU SO MUCH! for doing it at Anaheim so that i will be able to attend! Its going to be the best road trip of my LIFE! and best off all is that i will be doing it with my DAD! which he promised to give this event a chance! He is the kind of man that thinks gaming is a waist of time so this means a LOT to me! (I'm 20 btw, just saying so that people dont confuse me for a little kid). hahha
I absolutely cannot wait for this! Here's to hoping for the first Flash vs Jaedong finals in Starcraft 2. I noticed they set up the bracket so that it is a possibility! :D :D :D
You can SO tell that they're edging for a Flash/Jaedong finals... Too bad Soulkey is probably the strongest player of the lot of them... and Stork angst love/hates SC2...
Why are they even doing this? I feel like they're pushing up players who have very little real experience with SC2 and expecting them to be able to put on a GSL caliber show... which just won't happen.
EDIT: I'm having BoxeR vs YellOw flashbacks... which is a terrible, terrible thing... But it's even worse... at least BoxeR was low Code S/high Code A level at the time...
On June 08 2012 09:18 ShatterZer0 wrote: You can SO tell that they're edging for a Flash/Jaedong finals... Too bad Soulkey is probably the strongest player of the lot of them... and Stork angst love/hates SC2...
Why are they even doing this? I feel like they're pushing up players who have very little real experience with SC2 and expecting them to be able to put on a GSL caliber show... which just won't happen.
EDIT: I'm having BoxeR vs YellOw flashbacks... which is a terrible, terrible thing... But it's even worse... at least BoxeR was low Code S/high Code A level at the time...
That will never happen. It really ought to be a showcase of HotS instead of WoL. It would be ten times more fun.
Holy shit, those match-ups are amazing. :D Sick bracket.
Gonna watch this with a lot of interest.
And I sure hope everyone going to this MLG will do their best to make these E-sport superstars feel as welcome and appreciated as they deserve to be. ^__^
Is it just me or did they put this tournament at the worst possible time ever? 6 am on a monday for europeans means that basically no one will watch it and 9 pm at the actual event when everything else is over and when the crowd and everyone else has started leaving?
On June 08 2012 09:55 sM.Zik wrote: You guys underestimate them so much its disturbing....
A lot of us have been watching the SPL, the SC2 games are pretty unimpressive. But of course I'm pretty sure we all expect them to get much better very quickly.
On June 01 2012 21:27 Hadley_ wrote: I and most people don't know 95% of the bracket
Get a clue then.
Couldn't care less. If I would care about mediocre sc2-players I would watch Incontrol and IdrA...
Man you are so cool acting like a dick. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean 95% of the people don't know them lol. Don't write here and please don't watch them play as I don't want to read your comments in the thread. Thank you in advance!
No dude. It's absolutely vital to his existence that he lets everybody know how much he doesn't care. If someone were to suspect for one second that he cared, it would completely destroy him. We should spread the word for his sake. GUYS. HE DOESN'T CARE. Just letting everyone know!
What, he cares about this show match? OK I'll make sure the internet knows.
The bracket looks perfect, but it won't when JD loses first round.
I get why Stork is there, but personally I think Jangbi would have been a better invite.
On June 08 2012 09:55 sM.Zik wrote: You guys underestimate them so much its disturbing....
A lot of us have been watching the SPL, the SC2 games are pretty unimpressive. But of course I'm pretty sure we all expect them to get much better very quickly.
That's going to take a lot of time.
The BW games have been just as unimpressive as well dating back to the last PL and some of the games in the OSL have been baffling.
This is bittersweet, the best BW players, but SC2 still hasnt reached half the excitement level of BW yet. Im not saying SC2 isnt fun, but its just not as fun as watching BW.
However,
Im glad they have switched before HoTs so that now when the game takes a drastic change they will be ready as most Blizz expansions fix a ton of problems and can hopefully make this game more exciting to watch.
seems silly that the bracket picture is something from challonge. Come on, get a custom MLG bracket up there! regardless, this should be a hype tournament, not going to expect the best SC2 but still have my hopes up for some good games.
The names themself are big but dont expect high lvl play. I checked out Proleague a couple of times. Lets just hope they get better really fast. Predicting Jaedong to take this since he was fairly good the last sc2 game I've seen him play. Some say Soulkey but I havent seen him play yet. Hoping Flash takes this..since you know...he is god..
jaedong is improving fast. he took out lizzy who been playing way longer than him and is currently the player that have the best record in spl for sc2. by mlg i think we will see some nice play
On June 08 2012 10:13 Talionis wrote: I just noticed that this will be on at the same time as the proleague games. That sucks.
But Soulkey is going to own Fantasy again and dominate the rest easy.
I haven't been keeping up with the BW players playing SC2... has Soulkey really been that much better than everyone else so far?
Is there an obvious top three? Or is it still up in the air because none of their play is *that* refined yet?
He played some decent games, probably in the top3 so far but no he isnt that much better than everyone else.
On June 08 2012 12:27 Diizzy wrote: jaedong is improving fast. he took out lizzy who been playing way longer than him and is currently the player that have the best record in spl for sc2. by mlg i think we will see some nice play
That's the spirit! They will improve faster than most of you seem to think.
I am supporting either Bisu or Fantasy, all in all it should be fun to watch them play.
On the other hand wait and see how the BW pros are going to destroy everyone the next year. They are only getting the hang of it because they are not practicing for SC2 full time, many of TL current followers (I am a long time lurker of TL) never played SC:BW and don't know how difficult it was to even get to C- in ICCUP and only judge them from what they saw off of the Proleague games, just give them time and see.
Leta and Calm haven't played any televised SC2 games in SPL so far, so their play should be especially interesting considering that this is literally the first time that we are seeing them play SC2.
That being said, Jaedong is improving at a decent pace and has tons of potential despite some dodgy decision-making. His multitasking is superb, as evident by his multi-pronged Roach aggression, though he could play better against forcefields. His macro is phenomenal, but again, some dodgy decision-making has lost him games. He has only played a ZvZ and two ZvPs, so it'll be interesting to see how he does against Leta.
Bisu has looked very weak in SC2. He lost in a PvP and a PvT in rather unspectacular fashions. If Calm was Zerg, then I would love to see Bisu's SC2 PvZ, but Calm is Terran in SC2, so that won't happen. His one PvT loss showed some bad control against a very basic Terran timing that caught Bisu severely off-guard.
Stork is kinda harder to predict. His PvZ loss against ZerO was due to his sheer passivity in the face of ZerO's out-of-control macro and cute Spine Crawler pushes. His PvT win against Fantasy may have been partially the result of Fantasy's poor play.
Meanwhile, Flash looks to be not the easiest opponent for Stork. We haven't seen Flash's TvP outside of a few old replays and over-the-shoulder cam footage. However, he is VERY greedy, blindly going 14cc at every opportunity in the televised games that he's played so far. He died to EffOrt early on in SPL due to way too much passivity in his TvZ play, which let EffOrt drone up and expand without risk. However, his TvT against Baby showed some stronger play very reminiscent of the play in his over-the-shoulder cam footage and the replay against Kawaiirice. His TvT decision-making seems to be developing along quite nicely.
Neo.G_Soulkey's ZvP looks quite good so far, but that's it as far as televised games go. His 2 ZvP wins were quite strong, and his one ZvP loss was to one of those annoying 3-base Blink-Immortal timings that have been killing Zergs all over the place. However, his ZvZ and ZvT are a mystery so far with no televised games played so far, though I expect them to be quite strong if his rumored Grandmaster ladder ranking is true.
Fantasy, like Bisu, isn't looking that strong in SC2 despite being one of SKT1's star players. By.Sun has been looking like a much stronger SC2 player on SKT1. His one TvT win was a showcase of constant, entertaining aggression immersed in a ridiculous amount of sloppiness and baffling decision-making from both players. It was a very messy game, and even in victory, Fantasy didn't look that strong considering a better Terran could have won the same game several times before Fantasy had clinched his win. His TvP loss I've already talked about, but he hasn't played a TvZ yet, so that is quite a mystery. His TvZ was his weakest matchup in BW, though he did compensate with some awesome and innovative mech play. I hope he shows some cool mech TvZ at MLG.
Soulkey will crush Fantasy if Fantasy plays like the way he did in SPL. Hopefully, Flash will fare better against Stork, but that's kinda hard to predict considering Flash's lack of televised TvP games. Calm and Leta are HUGE wild-cards considering that no one has seen their SC2 play yet, so it's very difficult to predict that side of the bracket.
Contrary to many people's believe, I think Jaedong has the highest chance to win. The reasons are:
1. He has a whole week to prepare for SC2. His last SPL game was BW, therefore his next SPL game must be SC2. There's no incentive for him to practice BW this week for him so he can dedicate his whole practice to SC2 this week.
2. Team 8 recently hired Cezanne. A team with a coach that has high level knowledge of the game is going to practice the more efficiently and have more understanding about the game. An example would be how good Woongjin perform this season in SC2. They hired coach Ryu Won from Slayers and it shows that Woongjin has more understanding in SC2 than other teams.
Soulkey is probably the best player in SC2 right now. But because of the OSL tiebreaker matches he played on Tuesday would make him practice BW more than SC2 in the past week (or at least until the Tie-Breaker). Couple with that the last SPL game he played is a SC2 one, he has less incentive to practice for SC2 than Jaedong so he might not be in a perfect form.
On June 08 2012 13:49 LimeNade wrote: Are they not gonna play in the normal MLG open tournament too? I think im a bit confused. They just doing the separate tourney?
On June 08 2012 13:49 LimeNade wrote: Are they not gonna play in the normal MLG open tournament too? I think im a bit confused. They just doing the separate tourney?
only doing their own separate tournament.
ah damn thats kinda lame thought they'd want to jump in the open bracket too since time wise they should be able to do both ? O_o but maybe they dont wanna at same time since they may not feel ready
I'm excited to see their reaction to how big the SC2 fan base is when they show up. I wonder how many of them really kick it into high gear when they truly see the next level of StarCraft =D
On June 08 2012 13:49 LimeNade wrote: Are they not gonna play in the normal MLG open tournament too? I think im a bit confused. They just doing the separate tourney?
only doing their own separate tournament.
ah damn thats kinda lame thought they'd want to jump in the open bracket too since time wise they should be able to do both ? O_o but maybe they dont wanna at same time since they may not feel ready
Honestly most of them would probably make it past the first round or two then get raped even if that.
I think ill be watching stream 2 for the first round but I really want to hear what tastosis say in a way ill just have to mute who ever is on stream 2 and listen to 1 for a little bit so I can soak it in
Side note: First time we will get to see the kespa players playing SC2 in not so horrible quality.
All matches shouldn't be anything less then a BO5 with semis BO7 and final BO 9 :D . It would be a waste if the matches are below BO5 games . Also can't you invite them to join the open bracket or something i am dying to see how they will perform with the current pros at this point in time .
Sry for this question, but can someone find me all MLG brackets, kespa players + open bracket + pool play schedule of streams? Im interested which games can be viewed for free and I cant find anywhere
On June 08 2012 18:10 Nawe wrote: Sry for this question, but can someone find me all MLG brackets, kespa players + open bracket + pool play schedule of streams? Im interested which games can be viewed for free and I cant find anywhere
I think it's strange that they would only compete in the mini-tournament, all that travel for only 1 game.. I have a feeling they will be attending mlg open brackets too..
Flash and Jaedong will probably won't make it out of first round imo. Although its cool to see them compete in SC2, this is literally a toss up with all the KeSPA invited.
On June 08 2012 23:52 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: Flash and Jaedong will probably won't make it out of first round imo. Although its cool to see them compete in SC2, this is literally a toss up with all the KeSPA invited.
What?
Jaedong will most likely reach finals pretty easily. He showed some really good play vs Lizzy who is probably one of the top players in PL.
Bisu/Calm/Leta are all unproven and most likely won't be dangerous.
Flash on the other hand, we haven't seen his PvT really so there's no way of knowing. Stork seems pretty good though so we'll see. I think Stork will take it.
On June 09 2012 00:15 Chunhyang wrote: I'd love it if the winner of this got spot in the main tournment...
Why? So they'd get crushed by the much more experienced players? Why does everyone want them to feed them to the wolves so soon. It will de-moralize and taint them.
Let them get more experienced so they can truly compete and destroy the world. That sounds like a much better scenario!
This is so awesome, and that bracket is pure perfection. All of the matches are bound to be world class, from ro8 and all the way through with this kind of bracket.
On June 08 2012 18:10 Nawe wrote: Sry for this question, but can someone find me all MLG brackets, kespa players + open bracket + pool play schedule of streams? Im interested which games can be viewed for free and I cant find anywhere
On June 10 2012 06:53 Cbear wrote: Apologies if this has been cleared up already - but does anyone know for certain how many hours it is until the games start?
On June 08 2012 13:04 eviltomahawk wrote: Leta and Calm haven't played any televised SC2 games in SPL so far, so their play should be especially interesting considering that this is literally the first time that we are seeing them play SC2.
That being said, Jaedong is improving at a decent pace and has tons of potential despite some dodgy decision-making. His multitasking is superb, as evident by his multi-pronged Roach aggression, though he could play better against forcefields. His macro is phenomenal, but again, some dodgy decision-making has lost him games. He has only played a ZvZ and two ZvPs, so it'll be interesting to see how he does against Leta.
Bisu has looked very weak in SC2. He lost in a PvP and a PvT in rather unspectacular fashions. If Calm was Zerg, then I would love to see Bisu's SC2 PvZ, but Calm is Terran in SC2, so that won't happen. His one PvT loss showed some bad control against a very basic Terran timing that caught Bisu severely off-guard.
Stork is kinda harder to predict. His PvZ loss against ZerO was due to his sheer passivity in the face of ZerO's out-of-control macro and cute Spine Crawler pushes. His PvT win against Fantasy may have been partially the result of Fantasy's poor play.
Meanwhile, Flash looks to be not the easiest opponent for Stork. We haven't seen Flash's TvP outside of a few old replays and over-the-shoulder cam footage. However, he is VERY greedy, blindly going 14cc at every opportunity in the televised games that he's played so far. He died to EffOrt early on in SPL due to way too much passivity in his TvZ play, which let EffOrt drone up and expand without risk. However, his TvT against Baby showed some stronger play very reminiscent of the play in his over-the-shoulder cam footage and the replay against Kawaiirice. His TvT decision-making seems to be developing along quite nicely.
Neo.G_Soulkey's ZvP looks quite good so far, but that's it as far as televised games go. His 2 ZvP wins were quite strong, and his one ZvP loss was to one of those annoying 3-base Blink-Immortal timings that have been killing Zergs all over the place. However, his ZvZ and ZvT are a mystery so far with no televised games played so far, though I expect them to be quite strong if his rumored Grandmaster ladder ranking is true.
Fantasy, like Bisu, isn't looking that strong in SC2 despite being one of SKT1's star players. By.Sun has been looking like a much stronger SC2 player on SKT1. His one TvT win was a showcase of constant, entertaining aggression immersed in a ridiculous amount of sloppiness and baffling decision-making from both players. It was a very messy game, and even in victory, Fantasy didn't look that strong considering a better Terran could have won the same game several times before Fantasy had clinched his win. His TvP loss I've already talked about, but he hasn't played a TvZ yet, so that is quite a mystery. His TvZ was his weakest matchup in BW, though he did compensate with some awesome and innovative mech play. I hope he shows some cool mech TvZ at MLG.
Soulkey will crush Fantasy if Fantasy plays like the way he did in SPL. Hopefully, Flash will fare better against Stork, but that's kinda hard to predict considering Flash's lack of televised TvP games. Calm and Leta are HUGE wild-cards considering that no one has seen their SC2 play yet, so it's very difficult to predict that side of the bracket.
Wow, great writeup. Thanks for that. If I could subscribe to you I would :O
I think I've been reading too much of the Unimpressed Flash meme thread - I expected Flash to say something about being impressed, or if we were all impressed with him being there.
Also, you can tell they've had coaching outside of just playing the game - they did very well with both English (probably pretty good there to begin with) and working the crowd. And Leta! WOO!
On June 10 2012 13:33 Random_Guy09 wrote: Never watched BW in my life but still hyped about these guys being here. And very surpised at some of their english skills.
Also looks like Bisu will take over the USA meme over Stephano
Like Artosis said, imagine Mvp... but better. You should be hyped
On June 10 2012 13:33 Random_Guy09 wrote: Never watched BW in my life but still hyped about these guys being here. And very surpised at some of their english skills.
Also looks like Bisu will take over the USA meme over Stephano
Like Artosis said, imagine Mvp... but better. You should be hyped
MLG has done a great job with this I haven't been this pumped before a match starts for a while. I'm not too concerned how they play it's just a great fun event on top of the awesome matches we've already seen today.
On June 10 2012 13:33 Random_Guy09 wrote: Never watched BW in my life but still hyped about these guys being here. And very surpised at some of their english skills.
Also looks like Bisu will take over the USA meme over Stephano
Like Artosis said, imagine Mvp... but better. You should be hyped
Good to know Like the attitude of them wanting to break the language barrier and how much they're starting to see how much passion and such you older SC fans are. Not expecting GSL like games but should still be entertaining. Stork or Bisu going to take it As being a toss player its only natural to cheer for them lol But still GL to everyone else nothing against them at all.
Also nice to see the "random brackets" managed to randomly make the brackets completely even having both Zergs and Protoss players on opposite sides from each other. Will be fun to see how things turn out!
On June 10 2012 13:45 dcsoda wrote: MLG has done a great job with this I haven't been this pumped before a match starts for a while. I'm not too concerned how they play it's just a great fun event on top of the awesome matches we've already seen today.
agreed, that MKP vs stephano series was seriously the best starcraft 2 ive ever seen
Bought MLG pass just for this. Don't give a crap about MLG to be honest. It's no fun because there is very little game preparation and the games suffer for it.
I hope SC2 develops into a game suitable for these world class minds.
well, i'd so much rather see them play this tourney in broodwar...
However, all these personalities are what i've grown up with. These guys have some actual HISTORY... epic nerd chills here. Just came home from clubbing and its 7 AM here... im fucking tired and have some assignments for university tomorrow... but who fucking cares when we have broodwar pros?
Rooting for Jaedong and Flash to battle it out in what will be the first really interesting sc2 game for me... hah, im dreaming 8)
no offense though, i'd even watch these guys run up and down a street
I am overwhelmingly hyped after the player entrances. Tournament staff that read this thread: Do stuff like that. Give epic intros. It adds so much to the matches.
Playing a player's chosen intro song would be a great addition in the future.
On June 10 2012 14:04 Sinensis wrote: I just wanted to login and say:
I am overwhelmingly hyped after the player entrances. Tournament staff that read this thread: Do stuff like that. Give epic intros. It adds so much to the matches.
Playing a player's chosen intro song would be a great addition in the future.
I think it would have been better if Artosis and Tasteless had introduced them since Clutch was sort of just reading off his notes for that
It's pretty crazy to me how some SC1 pros like Flash and Fin play with health bars off and utilize the hotkeys for viewing health bars like they did in SC1.
Such an epic occasion, even if Tastosis' casting is massively over the top, there's hyping and there's putting people off watching that game... Determined to revel in it even if I have to mute the game
On June 10 2012 14:44 Clambo wrote: So I don't watch TvP's very often, but flash looked pretty legit good. Anyone wanna break down what a code S player would have done better?
The most glaring thing was the occasional lapses in micro. Flash would sometimes have a small group of MM standing around at the back of his army, and sometimes forgot to stutter step vs zealots.
On June 10 2012 14:44 Clambo wrote: So I don't watch TvP's very often, but flash looked pretty legit good. Anyone wanna break down what a code S player would have done better?
its hard to tell because stork's force fields seem kind of mediocre and so is his weird decision making, he keeps giving up expensive units in trades for marines for no particular reason.
On June 10 2012 14:44 Clambo wrote: So I don't watch TvP's very often, but flash looked pretty legit good. Anyone wanna break down what a code S player would have done better?
its hard to tell because stork's force fields seem kind of mediocre and so is his weird decision making, he keeps giving up expensive units in trades for marines for no particular reason.
Stork just made poor decisions on when to engage. Didn't have good FF's or storms which really cost him the last game But Flash did play really well and show'd some good skills for SC2
Games are sloppy BUT WHO CARES this is MOTHERFUCKING flash playing sc2!! HYPE HYPE HYPE Having tastosis cast these BW legends coming to Sc2 makes me giggy.
I wish they would just call the game instead of pretending they are a top sc2 pro who knows what they should be doing. Cos they continously proved wrong when they could of actually just been calling the game instead of telling us 'what they would do'.
sheesh just call the game - is that too much to ask ?
On June 10 2012 14:44 Clambo wrote: So I don't watch TvP's very often, but flash looked pretty legit good. Anyone wanna break down what a code S player would have done better?
upgrades were really late otherwise flash was playing pretty good tvp - but definitely not code S
On June 10 2012 14:35 Cornstyle wrote: Lol, guess they're not too used to seeing cloaked observers yet in SC2 based on the second game
Observers are cloaked in BW as well wtf
My bad, poorly worded.
Meant Flash missed sniping any observers around his army even though they were floating over the middle of it for most of his 2nd game. Still great games, just something that stuck out at me!
You know what i think it is? They seem to be really good with reinforcing, so whilst the engagements aren't giant deathballs the fights go for longer because units keep joining in.
Soulkey's fatal error that game was the decision to go ultralisks on Antiga. Once Terran sieges the middle, you need broodlords to break it efficiently otherwise you're wasting too many units to break his siege line and gold base.
On June 10 2012 15:16 moochu wrote: You know what i think it is? They seem to be really good with reinforcing, so whilst the engagements aren't giant deathballs the fights go for longer because units keep joining in.
Looks like the BW pro's are alot more agressive with their units. It never looks like "OMG turtle till 200/200 then we'll just micro around to get a better engage and then games over". Always lots of good small engagements that are making it entertaining. Only time it looks like turtling is when they're defending because the opponent has a small group of units standing on their door step. Don't think there has been an actual 200/200 "Deathball" fight yet from what I've seen (no access to the premium streams). They're all honestly playing "Thorzain" style of play just chipping away at each other when they think they have an advantage and arent overcommiting to attacks. Pretty good to watch
On June 10 2012 15:16 moochu wrote: You know what i think it is? They seem to be really good with reinforcing, so whilst the engagements aren't giant deathballs the fights go for longer because units keep joining in.
Looks like the BW pro's are alot more agressive with their units. It never looks like "OMG turtle till 200/200 then we'll just micro around to get a better engage and then games over". Always lots of good small engagements that are making it entertaining. Only time it looks like turtling is when they're defending because the opponent has a small group of units standing on their door step. Don't think there has been an actual 200/200 "Deathball" fight yet from what I've seen (no access to the premium streams). They're all honestly playing "Thorzain" style of play just chipping away at each other when they think they have an advantage and arent overcommiting to attacks. Pretty good to watch
Because you can afford to do some small engagements in BW. Even if you lost all the small engagements, comeback is still highly probable. But in SC2 if you lost all the small engagement and are low on supply and then hit by a forceful counterattack, comeback is much less likely so players tend to turtle more.
On June 10 2012 15:16 moochu wrote: You know what i think it is? They seem to be really good with reinforcing, so whilst the engagements aren't giant deathballs the fights go for longer because units keep joining in.
Looks like the BW pro's are alot more agressive with their units. It never looks like "OMG turtle till 200/200 then we'll just micro around to get a better engage and then games over". Always lots of good small engagements that are making it entertaining. Only time it looks like turtling is when they're defending because the opponent has a small group of units standing on their door step. Don't think there has been an actual 200/200 "Deathball" fight yet from what I've seen (no access to the premium streams). They're all honestly playing "Thorzain" style of play just chipping away at each other when they think they have an advantage and arent overcommiting to attacks. Pretty good to watch
Because you can afford to do some small engagements in BW. Even if you lost all the small engagements, comeback is still highly probable. But in SC2 if you lost all the small engagement and are low on supply and then hit by a forceful counterattack, comeback is much less likely so players tend to turtle more.
The way they're playing is making it much more entertaining as they're not waiting for it to get to deathball vs deathball. Always good to see they're not falling into how we normally see it played everyday. Refreshing to see it being different
On June 10 2012 15:36 haduken wrote: lols flash is ridiclous.
He just made Stork and Soulkey look like scrubs. Granted both Stork and Soulkey made some mistakes, but that's gonna happen when they are so new. But god damn Flash looks like a new player since losing to Effort.
How is the level of Flash right now from these games??? I can't really seem to grasp how good he is in SC2, but those games vs Soulkey were very entertaining!
Oh, and I see that JD and soulkey has an extra queen just for creeping, do top zerg SC2 gamers like Stephano do that too?
That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
On June 10 2012 15:37 CaptainCharisma wrote: That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
Walking into 6+ Siege Tanks not good idea with Muta/Bling.
On June 10 2012 15:37 CaptainCharisma wrote: That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
He's not MVP level yet but he would definitely smash alot of midtier pros at the moment purely on mechanics. His TvP against Stork was abit gimmiky at times, but his TvZ vs Soulkey particularly g2 was pretty nuts. Most pro gamers would not attack against a huge Muta/Bling/Infestor army in the field like that but Flash did and took minimal casualties the entire time.
Eventho i liked the engagements flash did, i think he isnt using the little timing pushes a terran can make efficiently. if you go 2 fast ebays you either have to exploit the fast +1/1 or +2/2, considering he goes 3 cc a nice 2/2 timing would be good imo.
Oh man oh man. Jaedong vs Bisu. Bisu has seemed to have Jaedong's number in BW for the past year or so, I wonder how these two hammer it out in SC2...
Also, if we do end up seeing a Jaedong vs Flash finals, I fully expect both of them to play harder than we've seen any of the BW pros do so far. Winning is one thing, but winning over each other should provide a whole new level of motivation for them.
On June 10 2012 15:37 Malpractice.248 wrote: flash quite good... great decision mashing and micro
I think one of the most important reason why flash won is that Soulkey moves his full army into the siege line and pulls back, and then he moves into the siege line and pulls back again. In this process, Soulkey did 0 damage but lost about 30 supply.
Flash looks pretty good, but I think Soulkey just fell victim to thinking his lings were as good as BW lings.
Flash also sieges and unsieges his tanks very often, and when the enemy is quite close - I don't think he fully realizes how fast SC2 units are relative to the siege animation.
On June 10 2012 15:39 Sadist wrote: Macro and multitask looks pretty good. Micro isnt there yet. You can see the potential though.
His micro in relation to TvP wasn't too great, but his TvZ was pretty good for the most part.
On June 10 2012 15:39 Regina wrote: Eventho i liked the engagements flash did, i think he isnt using the little timing pushes a terran can make efficiently. if you go 2 fast ebays you either have to exploit the fast +1/1 or +2/2, considering he goes 3 cc a nice 2/2 timing would be good imo.
He went fast 3-3 which allowed him to utterly smash the Ultras in the middle of the map on Antiga; Soulkey made a huge mistake of not waiting for the armor upgrade to kick in and lost all of his gas he invested way too fast.
On June 10 2012 15:37 CaptainCharisma wrote: That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
I think you are trying to imply that these are scripted matches?
On June 10 2012 15:37 CaptainCharisma wrote: That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
I think you are trying to imply that these are scripted matches?
Hmm. I think Players would not let fixed matched if that what you are thinking, besides The fame that they will get from winning is really important, So why would soulkey throw away a match
On June 10 2012 15:37 CaptainCharisma wrote: That was interesting. I think Soulkey could have devastated Flash a couple of times, but seemed tentative, moving in but pulling back after taking a few tank hits. Did anyone else spot this?
I think you are trying to imply that these are scripted matches?
WHAT THE FUCK GOT INTO FLASH!!!! If he wouldve played in the Open Bracket he wouldve gotten so far, dare I say into pool play?? This man will be SC2's first bonjwa just like he was BW's last.
How dare you question scripted matches... of ALL progamers, these BW progamers would never do that after what Savior did. Never ever ever..
How is Flash compared to current level of progamers? Code A level? Not there yet? I can see JD and other guys are still long way to the top, but Flash looks pretty damn impressive already
On June 10 2012 15:46 ExceeD_DreaM wrote: How dare you question scripted matches... of ALL progamers, these BW progamers would never do that after what Savior did. Never ever ever..
How is Flash compared to current level of progamers? Code A level? Not there yet? I can see JD and other guys are still long way to the top, but Flash looks pretty damn impressive already
+1 I agree with this guy.
Please don't call scripted matches. Its discusting guys! The guy who did, should be banned for a month imho.
On June 10 2012 15:39 YMCApylons wrote: Flash looks pretty good, but I think Soulkey just fell victim to thinking his lings were as good as BW lings.
Flash also sieges and unsieges his tanks very often, and when the enemy is quite close - I don't think he fully realizes how fast SC2 units are relative to the siege animation.
I think the players are quite aware of the relative differences between units in BW, but I take it that you are being sarcastic.
Flash is playing like Boss. Did you notice how often he was supply blocked in the game on Daybreak though ? Probably the mutalisks threw him off.
His on-the-fly decision making is astounding. The decision to pull 10 scvs in the game vs Stork was definitely not something he planned beforehand.
I compared the numbers, MKP was ahead by ~10 supply (wild estimate) , so I think there is some upside in Flash's builds. In particular, he didn't add on more raxes as he should've done. He was always producing marines 11 at the time. He could easily go up to 15 or more.
All comparisons are relative to his opponents. He would probably lose had to Stephano, but it looks very promising.
Also, he changed keyboards after Ro 8. He was using his white Qsenn vs Stork, but a Steelseries in the Ro 4. I assume that it was provided by the organizers since the caster computers all have keyboards from Steelseries. Was Tasteless really trolling with the keyboard jokes?
On June 10 2012 15:39 YMCApylons wrote: Flash looks pretty good, but I think Soulkey just fell victim to thinking his lings were as good as BW lings.
Flash also sieges and unsieges his tanks very often, and when the enemy is quite close - I don't think he fully realizes how fast SC2 units are relative to the siege animation.
I think the players are quite aware of the relative differences between units in BW, but I take it that you are being sarcastic.
Flash is playing like Boss. Did you notice how often he was supply blocked in the game on Daybreak though ? Probably the mutalisks threw him off.
His on-the-fly decision making is astounding. The decision to pull 10 scvs in the game vs Stork was definitely not something he planned beforehand.
I compared the numbers, MKP was ahead by ~10 supply (wild estimate) , so I think there is some upside in Flash's builds. In particular, he didn't add on more raxes as he should've done. He was always producing marines 11 at the time. He could easily go up to 15 or more.
All comparisons are relative to his opponents. He would probably lose had to Stephano, but it looks very promising.
Also, he changed keyboards after Ro 8. He was using his white Qsenn vs Stork, but a Steelseries in the Ro 4. I assume that it was provided by the organizers since the caster computers all have keyboards from Steelseries. Was Tasteless really trolling with the keyboard jokes?
No I think he was completely serious about something going wrong with Flash's keyboard after the first game against Stork. The jokes were Tasteless making Flash meme's. Don't think a pro would ever change keyboard unless there was a hardware problem with their own equipment.
flash looks like a grandmasters level terran if not code s level tonight, he looks nothing like he did in the first week of proleague ... he has progresses so much in a month.
These guys are okay but it will be a long time before they are at the caliber of the current pros. They would be shredded by anybody that was in pool play.
On June 10 2012 16:04 TheEmulator wrote: Hey tasteless, I am pretty sure Nal Ra popularized the forge expand way before bisu. You could tell artosis wanted to correct him.
Tasteless is so bad he's just dragging down artosis at this point.
On June 10 2012 16:11 Malpractice.248 wrote: everyone so testy. someone claims someone else says games thrown. gg explosion. now thinking troll when a sc player asks what a new thing in sc2 is
Well, even a person who has been living under a rock for the last two years should be able to figure out the purpose and function of the Xel'Naga towers after watching exactly one game of SC2.
On June 10 2012 16:04 TheEmulator wrote: Hey tasteless, I am pretty sure Nal Ra popularized the forge expand way before bisu. You could tell artosis wanted to correct him.
On June 10 2012 16:05 lexpoa wrote: What is the point of that shiny silver towers on the maps?
To make it harder to come back or be sneaky or jockey for position. Luckily, this map has a wide open center so it is the least negatively effected of all current ladder maps.
On June 10 2012 16:01 lorestarcraft wrote: These guys are okay but it will be a long time before they are at the caliber of the current pros. They would be shredded by anybody that was in pool play.
I dont know about that. I would say that their macro is on par with the best of the current pros, the only thing they are missing is a little better micro, and experience for that game sense. Other than this Flash's macro is MVP level, and the creep spread from Jaedong is way better than most pros here. Bisu just doing normal toss builds although his feedbacks last game were sick...
On June 10 2012 16:18 Norada wrote: nalra and such *tried* before but bisu made it standard where every game toss just did it.
actually it was more of a problem with savior's absolute destruction of the forge fe build due to his 3hatch muta response which would just crush protoss players due to a distinct lack of anti-air
bisu came in with his solution to followup the forge fe with a corsair dt (later on a corsair reaver) transition in which he had map control to defend from any push due to the ease of sniping overlords, the ability to kill so many overlords and drones that the game just ends (or at least goes into his favor) and most notably the ability to hold off savior's muta style which was plaguing the forge fe
this solidified forge fe as the standard in PvZ as it patched up the by far greatest and most easily exploitable hole in the build (other than ling runbys (mondragon tsl1 ladder vP lol)) making it a true staple in the matchup to this day
On June 10 2012 16:18 Norada wrote: nalra and such *tried* before but bisu made it standard where every game toss just did it.
actually it was more of a problem with savior's absolute destruction of the forge fe build due to his 3hatch muta response which would just crush protoss players due to a distinct lack of anti-air
bisu came in with his solution to followup the forge fe with a corsair dt (later on a corsair reaver) transition in which he had map control to defend from any push due to the ease of sniping overlords, the ability to kill so many overlords and drones that the game just ends (or at least goes into his favor) and most notably the ability to hold off savior's muta style which was plaguing the forge fe
this solidified forge fe as the standard in PvZ as it patched up the by far greatest and most easily exploitable hole in the build (other than ling runbys (mondragon tsl1 ladder vP lol)) making it a true staple in the matchup to this day
yup this. nalra was the first person to do a forge fe(im sure it was something that his team as a whole was practicing) but bisu was the one who popularized the corsair into dt style, before that protoss's used to randomly build shit and attack
On June 10 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote: idk what the fuck that was. I mean, I understood the first part, but the continual making of Queens made no sense.
you dont understand it because jaedong has transcended onto a higher level of thinking in terms of starcraft strategy, he just lacked the execution
Feels like he tried to tank the most of the damage / immortal shots with queens.. rather disappointing game, wonder if that's actually worked in his practice
On June 10 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote: idk what the fuck that was. I mean, I understood the first part, but the continual making of Queens made no sense.
you dont understand it because jaedong has transcended onto a higher level of thinking in terms of starcraft strategy, he just lacked the execution
Bro, the Roach/Queen attack was fine. It was the 2nd part where he had like...... 20 Queens.....
On June 10 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote: idk what the fuck that was. I mean, I understood the first part, but the continual making of Queens made no sense.
you dont understand it because jaedong has transcended onto a higher level of thinking in terms of starcraft strategy, he just lacked the execution
Bro, the Roach/Queen attack was fine. It was the 2nd part where he had like...... 20 Queens.....
Well, I mean it must have worked in his practice games otherwise why would he do it in an elimination game?
On June 10 2012 16:33 superstartran wrote: idk what the fuck that was. I mean, I understood the first part, but the continual making of Queens made no sense.
you dont understand it because jaedong has transcended onto a higher level of thinking in terms of starcraft strategy, he just lacked the execution
Bro, the Roach/Queen attack was fine. It was the 2nd part where he had like...... 20 Queens.....
Well, I mean it must have worked in his practice games otherwise why would he do it in an elimination game?
I have no fucking clue. But Jaedong must know something current SC2 pros don't because I have NEVER seen mass Queens work until way late with Blord/Infestor.
Yeah, the crowd is kinda lackluster... but so would I be at that hour. Besides the level of play wasn't really overwhelming either. Let's just hope that those players see and remember how the winner of mlg gets cheered on. :-/
That was painful... Flash is just using the cheesiest builds from the beta in TvP. Not that he isn't good, but it's not that he's that much better. Terran is just infinitely micro-able. You can't say that X player has 'godly' micro or whatever when the other player can't micro his units to effectiveness even if he has the skill to do so. I didn't like seeing that. Bad beta flashbacks (no pun intended).
Not gonna lie, even though Flash's opponents made some pretty big blunders, I've seen alot of top level pros do some severely perplexing things before. His play was incredibly solid, and even though there were a few minor errors, he still looks to extend his dominance from SC1 to SC2. His level of play from Proleague till now is just leaps and bounds ahead of where he was. He's not quite at the elite level Code-S yet, but he could definitely compete in Code-A no problem right now, and likely take out some Code-S players in just another month or two of practice.
On June 10 2012 17:08 theBOOCH wrote: That was painful... Flash is just using the cheesiest builds from the beta in TvP. Not that he isn't good, but it's not that he's that much better. Terran is just infinitely micro-able. You can't say that X player has 'godly' micro or whatever when the other player can't micro his units to effectiveness even if he has the skill to do so. I didn't like seeing that. Bad beta flashbacks (no pun intended).
He showed that he was more than capable of handling P's late game against Stork and Bisu. Dealt with HT Storms really well, and showed some nice splitting. Not to mention his TvZ vs Soulkey was pretty insane, particularly game 2 for a guy that's barely played the game.
Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
it was a GREAT NIGHT, like old times =) here in my country its 4:09 am, and im so happy to watch those players crushing their keyboards again! so much love to sc2 future right now!! long live to BW history and his legacy!!
ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Bisu also actually wasn't bad vs Flash either in g1, he just had a few minor errors that added up.
oh, and for the new kidz posting... please, RESPECT the real players, in less than a year from here, Kespa players will start dominating the world again.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
On June 10 2012 17:08 theBOOCH wrote: That was painful... Flash is just using the cheesiest builds from the beta in TvP. Not that he isn't good, but it's not that he's that much better. Terran is just infinitely micro-able. You can't say that X player has 'godly' micro or whatever when the other player can't micro his units to effectiveness even if he has the skill to do so. I didn't like seeing that. Bad beta flashbacks (no pun intended).
You clearly don't get it.
Sure, proxy marauder was maybe popular in the beta and any progamer should be able to hold it.
That is not the point.
First, just because a build was common in the beta doesn't mean it is bad. Secondly, you are implying that Bisu would easily counter that if he had more experience.
You are wrong in everything you say.
Forget the beta. Forget all your preconceived ideas and try to see things with an unbiased eye.
The power of the stuff Flash pulled of was that he switched between 14 cc or insane rushes. He was simply tricking Bisu into going a greedy build.
FLASH dominating lol. His games against Soulkey especially the second one were insane. His macro is solid, his micro is great and well, he's such a solid player for the amount of time he had to practice. Even though Jaedong's third game with Bisu was bizzare XD, his creep spread is better than most and he has decent macro as well. Just needs more time for strategies and such
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
Flash's game vs stork on daybreak.... he kited while snipe HT in between the attack cooldown of the kiting. The level of control is like ridiculous man holy shit
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
The only pros that are beating Flash are Code-A/Code-S and maybe a handful of top level foreigners. If you think Flash is losing to any mid-tier pro you're kidding yourself, especially after what everyone just saw. His macro alone would overwhelm most players, even alot of mid-tier pros. It's not like Flash hasn't proven himself incapable of beating some of the better pros out there; he already has.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
Bisu didn't lose because of triple Nexus. Bad argument is bad. Flash put ZERO pressure onto Bisu, which allowed Bisu to quick tech to Storm with virtually nothing while taking an extremely fast 3rd and getting a big economy for a 10+ WG Infrastructure. He lost game 1 because of bad army control, not because he made poor decisions. You're logic is astoundingly bad.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE. Flash literally put NO pressure until the 3rd was way saturated.
And people get away with greedy builds all the time. No one that plays high level SC:BW ever played "safe." Flash literally 14 cc's almost every map, and also randomly throws in cheeses. It's actually rare for him to open standard/safe. Jaedong is also notorious for playing ulta greedy. Fantasy has some of the weirdest builds/timings ever. That's just how they play, and they are so good at it because what is unsafe for 99.9% of the population, they can make it work for them.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER. He only played greedy because he doesn't know any cheeses that work very well against T. Otherwise, he would have cheesed the living fuck out of Flash because that's what he's done almost every time in their past few matches in BW.
Wow, it's.. wow.. I just felt like I went back in time to the early Starcraft 2, and I brought all of the most amazing BroodWar pros with me.
Then I enter these forums to see BW fanatics exclaiming the end of the current SC2 pros, constant insults, balance whining and an inane discussion over analysis. This really is the new Battle.net forums, and the Battle.net forums is the new forum that shall not be named.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
I guess you didn't see his first game against stork? He punished him so hard for being greedy pulling 10 SCV's with his 7 marines. He seems to have a pretty good idea when he should punish his opponent
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
And code A pros have never died to worse? Why can't anyone compliment Bisu's decision making without having their opinion criticized cause of Bisu's poor control? Bisu played decently. Flash played better. Sucks he went such a late gateway and hesitated as the bunker finished. Life goes on.
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
A valid assumption, but you analogy doesn't really hold water.
Idra was a top BW foreigner because he had great mechanics. He was never super inventive or known for amazing micro. And his status as 'THE' top foreigner in BW is not so clear.
However, Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, Stork, etc. are the total packages. It's not just about mechanics with these guys.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
yeah, and some other things
warp tech indestructible force fields with the potential to give a protoss a free-win. fungaled units not being able to move. colossus (a siege range unit with great splash damage AND high mobility) the ability to throw away all your scvs for MULES
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
Even with MKP's level of control, you can't win TvP in the current metagame w/o marauders
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
Even with MKP's level of control, you can't win TvP in the current metagame w/o marauders
There is a misunderstanding here.
What I meant was that TvP would be messed up in the earlygame if conc. shell was a default ability of the marauder.
Then, a lot of terrans with me hates the marauder because it fills the roll that otherwise would be held by the tank. Of course, the removal of the marauder would be the end of bio play in TvP.
Not sure what people are saying that the pros don't have good micro - They actually control small groups of units to get better concaves or avoid splash damage DURING fights as to maximize DPS. Flash did this a lot vs Stork on the game vs Daybreak, not to mention the storm dodging (only moving units that were in storm so his unstormed army was still attacking) and when he got forcefielded, he only moved the units that were in front of the forcefields getting attacked by zealots so that his army could keep attacking and repositioned his army so that the units that were in front of the forcefield could become part of his concave etc.
These little things are the things that win games at the very highest level.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
If you ask artosis he was foreign bonjwa but no there was never much of a separation between him and other very good foreigners let alone a big one
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
it all depends if you count chinese players or not
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
it all depends if you count chinese players or not
what chinese players? as far as im concerned idrA was the best foreigner as well, he was always a favourite in every match and almost always did relatively well
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
lol what?
I can't even begin with how ridiculous this is.
SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
No it doesn't. It's a new RTS game. It's expanded on the fundamental principles, and has entered into this style of gaming its own take. Rather than whine about warp gate, l2p.
well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
Yes, it does exist to delay warp tech. It is not the best upgrade in the game. That could not be more subjective (or more obvious waaaaah i hate warp gate whining). I'm sure hundreds of people would argue stim is the best upgrade (makes units that cost as much as workers late-game viable? Seems strong). What about pathogen glands? That's a pretty good upgrade. I can not get over the fact that all these "i hate sc2 for X,Y,Z it's so broken" are coming back up again? Didn't you guys get this out of your system a year and a half ago when anybody cared?
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
Someone clearly never played the beta. Concussive shell came standard with marauders in the beta, and it was far too powerful. Proxy marauder rushes were nearly impossible to hold if unscouted (though granted, you could build a barracks before depot back then).
This game is perfectly fine with concussive shell as it is, and warpgate. Your post reads so much like "Fuck warpgate, TvP is hard, protoss imba!" a. Not true b. Not the time or place. This is the Kespa Invitational thread, not the get your whining off your chest thread
ON TOPIC: The games last night were awesome. Flash is still a boss, but I think I was most impressed with Jaedong, just seems like he's going to take this game by storm.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
That's also exceptionally debatable, though I don't care to argue semantics. Legionnaire, Nony, WhiteRa, F91, Testie... there were other big foreign players in BW
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
it all depends if you count chinese players or not
what chinese players? as far as im concerned idrA was the best foreigner as well, he was always a favourite in every match and almost always did relatively well
idra's "reign" never felt legit to me because everyone knew that ret, nony, jf, mondi, testie, PJ, Lx, Sen, Draco were a hundred times more talented and could destroy him if and whenever they decided to start giving a fuck.
On June 10 2012 23:55 hifriend wrote: f91 best foreigner? lol what a joke.
idra's "reign" never felt legit to me because everyone knew that ret, nony, jf, mondi, testie, PJ, Lx, Sen, Draco were a hundred times more talented and could destroy him if and whenever they decided to start giving a fuck.
we were listing someone who was a good chinese player is all, and one that always raped idra :>
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
? he was the top foreigner bw player when he left. he wasnt the best foreigner ever but the time he was in CJ, yes he was the best foreigner
it all depends if you count chinese players or not
what chinese players? as far as im concerned idrA was the best foreigner as well, he was always a favourite in every match and almost always did relatively well
F91
Why would you count the chinese players? nobody counted them then, don't count them now.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
Except the foreigner BW community was rather small, at least compared to WC3. That's why, in part, foreigner WC3 are performing better than BW ones.. but look at how things are looking inside korea... most top players are ex-BW pros.
The majority of korean sc2 pros are guys who couldn't hack it in bw. Some of them didn't have the work ethic needed; some didn't have the talent or the multitask. Although I think multitasking is less important in SC2, I do think that it is only a matter of time before the BW pros get caught up with the SC2 pros. These guys are the most talented hard-working, and best coached players in all of esports. But on topic: Flash was really impressive - especially against Soulkey who everyone thought would win this tournament since he's been GM in korea for a while, and Flash just started playing sc2 1-2 months ago. He's doing what he did in broodwar by picking it up fast and rising to the top very quickly. Jaedong said in an interview that he hasn't played enough to understand SC2 yet, so it isn't too surprising that he used a weak strategy vs Bisu in game three, but I'm overall quite impressed by his ZvT cuz it honestly looked better than Soulkey's, but then again FlaSh made Soulkey look bad, so it's not a great comparison. Either way though he is improving fast. Bisu looked decent overall especially in PvZ, but FlaSh made him look bad in PvT ;; I think the BW players are doing good for only having played 1-2 months, but FlaSh is doing great.
Oh and although Idra was successful in BW, he was always considered relatively untalented and uncreative. He was basically the only guy who was playing 12-14 hours a day and living in a Korean team house, so it's not exactly fair to lump him in with the other foreigners. There's a reason that a small minority thought that Idra shouldn't be allowed to participate in foreign tournaments as a result. I think Idra is doing decently in sc2, but as I said he is not very talented, so it's not like he's going to have Stephano level success. He's always going to be a mid-top foreign player though.
On June 11 2012 00:20 ABear wrote: The majority of korean sc2 pros are guys who couldn't hack it in bw. Some of them didn't have the work ethic needed; some didn't have the talent or the multitask. Although I think multitasking is less important in SC2, I do think that it is only a matter of time before the BW pros get caught up with the SC2 pros. These guys are the most talented hard-working, and best coached players in all of esports. But on topic: Flash was really impressive - especially against Soulkey who everyone thought would win this tournament since he's been GM in korea for a while, and Flash just started playing sc2 1-2 months ago. He's doing what he did in broodwar by picking it up fast and rising to the top very quickly. Jaedong said in an interview that he hasn't played enough to understand SC2 yet, so it isn't too surprising that he used a weak strategy vs Bisu in game three, but I'm overall quite impressed by his ZvT cuz it honestly looked better than Soulkey's, but then again FlaSh made Soulkey look bad, so it's not a great comparison. Either way though he is improving fast. Bisu looked decent overall especially in PvZ, but FlaSh made him look bad in PvT ;; I think the BW players are doing good for only having played 1-2 months, but FlaSh is doing great.
Oh and although Idra was successful in BW, he was always considered relatively untalented and uncreative. He was basically the only guy who was playing 12-14 hours a day and living in a Korean team house, so it's not exactly fair to lump him in with the other foreigners. There's a reason that a small minority thought that Idra shouldn't be allowed to participate in foreign tournaments as a result. I think Idra is doing decently in sc2, but as I said he is not very talented, so it's not like he's going to have Stephano level success. He's always going to be a mid-top foreign player though.
Idra has stated that he knows he is not very creative, but as far as multitasking goes, SC2 is mechanically much smoother than BW so I think the potential for multitasking could be higher. It will be interesting when these kespa guys get decent.
IdrA, after he moved to the CJ house, and probably between 2008(2009?)-2010 was considered the scariest and best foreigner when it came to Brood War. Sure, F91, Sen, and NonY at times defeated him. But overall every tournament at the time was his to win. Well, foreign tournaments anyway. That Koreans weren't allowed in.
On June 11 2012 03:15 Picklebread wrote: God that anaheim crowd didnt cheer too loud for flash :/
They did at the beginning of it but by the end of it all I guess everyone was too tired and couldn't be bothered since it was only an exhibition tournament.
On June 11 2012 03:15 Picklebread wrote: God that anaheim crowd didnt cheer too loud for flash :/
Is there something you want to say to the foreign fans?
I am so grateful. I may have seen a larger crowd but, a cheer like that, you would only see once per year. It makes me proud and I want to thank the fans who cheered for me. If possible, I want to attend as many foreign tournaments as possible.
On June 11 2012 03:11 lorestarcraft wrote: Are BW guys that no nothing about SC2 gonna start posting about how SC2 is broken in here now? seriously... this could get really annoying.
Sc2 is not broken, it's not balanced. Happy now?//
Back to topic, Bisu PvT looked pretty crappy even when he played Sc2 in Proleague, he played quite similar this game too - wierd forcefields, macro mistakes, he looks quite bad in this match-up. Jaedong, when playing first game, played quite solid, Stephano-styled, ZvP, Other two games were quite wierd, I'm not quite sure what happened. Flash played straight, macro-oriented games against both Soulkey and against Bisu. Quite similar to what he does in BroodWars.
On June 11 2012 03:15 Picklebread wrote: God that anaheim crowd didnt cheer too loud for flash :/
They did at the beginning of it but by the end of it all I guess everyone was too tired and couldn't be bothered since it was only an exhibition tournament.
i was there, it was loud as hell.
also note that at around Bisu vs. Flash, the LoL crowd was nearly completely cleared out during G3 of CLG vs. Dignitas (two of the premier teams), while the entire sc2 crowd stayed for the entirety of the Kespa matches. This was after an 11am - 1am 14 hour gauntlet, so give us some slack :p
1) Jaedong had the highest level English of the bunch 2) Leta had the most badass opening ceremony..no contest. 3) Provided 6-12 months of pure SC2 practice, these guys will improve similarly to how current Code A/S players improved after 6-12 months of pure SC2 practice (and maybe surpass them, but that's just a wild guess)
On June 11 2012 03:15 Picklebread wrote: God that anaheim crowd didnt cheer too loud for flash :/
They did at the beginning of it but by the end of it all I guess everyone was too tired and couldn't be bothered since it was only an exhibition tournament.
Yeah seconded. At the end, I was really tired otherwise I would have cheered louder. Also, a lot of people left after flash vs soulkey.
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
I just felt the need to correct this: At no point in time was Idra ever considered the top foreigner in BW..ever. Not even close.
If you ask artosis he was foreign bonjwa but no there was never much of a separation between him and other very good foreigners let alone a big one
I dunno. In that TSL2 ladder run IdrA cranked his way up to A+ playing almost exclusively against other KR players. Nobody else was even close to this and most of the others that got to A played heavily against the other foreigners. So in one sense it was obvious that IdrA was much stronger than his competition.
Unfortunately, ladder is just one measure of skill and what truly counts is how you perform in event. While IdrA had good tournament results and a fair number of wins he wasn't completely dominant, especially in TvP. There is a reason why people didn't speak of IdrA; but rather, IdrA, Ret, NonY, and to lesser extent (probably because of less activity) Mondragon.
Basically, IdrA wasn't THE top foreigner in the sense of being undisputed king, but he was certainly top three/four and you could make a strong case he was the best of those.
Damn I missed this and it looks like ill have to buy a premium pass just to watch those vods.. worth it? I wouldnt want to miss a Bisu game, even in SC2 I guess
oh broodwar elitists fans, why won't you ever go away?
if sc2 is full of gimmic, imbalance game, then we wouldn't have such a diverse racial balance at the top level (which shifts depends on meta changes) and we wouldn't have such consistent players on winning tourneys
On June 11 2012 06:42 BlueStar wrote: Idra never been the top foreigner just a casual terran robot who got lucky to play in korea.
Yeah it's all luck really. If only you had flipped the one coin he did and gotten heads, you would have been in his shoes no problem.
In the immortal words of Bic: Get Real.
On topic: I was impressed with Flash. In 2-3 months, I'll almost certainly be impressed with everyone else (especially as they focus more on SC2 than SC1).
BW pros may not instantly become better than GSL players, but they are better showmen thats for sure... that presentation was some good entertainment especially Leta's backflip lol
On June 11 2012 11:45 XXhkXX wrote: BW pros may not instantly become better than GSL players, but they are better showmen thats for sure... that presentation was some good entertainment especially Leta's backflip lol
Yea, you hear a lot of people saying bw pros don't show emotion and they're just mechanical robots who win everything. That's part true, but they have a fun side to them also.
Flash is already at a Code A and maybe above level.
Also, some of the crowd started slowly creeping out, by the end of Flash vs Soulkey it was already past 11:30. I left because I assumed they would play Flash vs Jaedong/Bisu the day after with the rest of the finals (and so did a few other people I know). KInd of silly to put it so late, it was obvious the crowd was tired/ready to go home/back to our hotels for the most part.
On June 11 2012 11:45 XXhkXX wrote: BW pros may not instantly become better than GSL players, but they are better showmen thats for sure... that presentation was some good entertainment especially Leta's backflip lol
On June 11 2012 11:19 iky43210 wrote: oh broodwar elitists fans, why won't you ever go away?
if sc2 is full of gimmic, imbalance game, then we wouldn't have such a diverse racial balance at the top level (which shifts depends on meta changes) and we wouldn't have such consistent players on winning tourneys
Are there really that many of us BW "elitists" making these sorts of claims? Or are you you seeing one or two and then generalizing to the entire group.
Pretty much all I see in the last 4 or 5 pages is discussion of the games, how the KeSPA players stack up vs themselves and how they might compare to the current SC2 pros, and some discussion about IdrA's skill level at the end of his BW days. I'm not sure I saw A post calling SC2 imbalanced or gimmicky.
On June 11 2012 11:19 iky43210 wrote: oh broodwar elitists fans, why won't you ever go away?
if sc2 is full of gimmic, imbalance game, then we wouldn't have such a diverse racial balance at the top level (which shifts depends on meta changes) and we wouldn't have such consistent players on winning tourneys
Are there really that many of us BW "elitists" making these sorts of claims? Or are you you seeing one or two and then generalizing to the entire group.
Pretty much all I see in the last 4 or 5 pages is discussion of the games, how the KeSPA players stack up vs themselves and how they might compare to the current SC2 pros, and some discussion about IdrA's skill level at the end of his BW days. I'm not sure I saw A post calling SC2 imbalanced or gimmicky.
I didn't generalize the entire broodwar fans as elitists, im talking specifically toward those elitists
I didn't quote, but I saw at least 2-3 posts saying something like "Sc2 is not broken, it's not balanced. Happy now?". If that's not being elitists I don't know what is
On June 11 2012 08:18 Louuster wrote: Damn I missed this and it looks like ill have to buy a premium pass just to watch those vods.. worth it? I wouldnt want to miss a Bisu game, even in SC2 I guess
VODs are generally free about a week after the event, or turn up on youtube in a few days.
On June 11 2012 11:45 XXhkXX wrote: BW pros may not instantly become better than GSL players, but they are better showmen thats for sure... that presentation was some good entertainment especially Leta's backflip lol
Yea, you hear a lot of people saying bw pros don't show emotion and they're just mechanical robots who win everything. That's part true, but they have a fun side to them also.
Thanks to the way media works in the west, a lot of people equate "having a personality" to "being a dick". You can be as interesting/outgoing/funny as much as you want, but unless you're occasionally a dick, you're boring.
BW progamers definitely have interesting personalities that show quite often, but they're almost universally nice. I bet a ton of people think White-Ra and Sheth are boring as well.
wth... im surprise they never used flash as an ace in spl. sometimes they didnt even pick him to play. haha he mustve just wanted to hide his skill? im kinda confuse. he came in the invitational by storm. did not expect him to play so well.
On June 11 2012 23:23 Diizzy wrote: wth... im surprise they never used flash as an ace in spl. sometimes they didnt even pick him to play. haha he mustve just wanted to hide his skill? im kinda confuse. he came in the invitational by storm. did not expect him to play so well.
They've always picked Flash to play and his 1-1 just not in ACE matches . There have been like 2 ACE matches as well so no big deal .
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