On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
And code A pros have never died to worse? Why can't anyone compliment Bisu's decision making without having their opinion criticized cause of Bisu's poor control? Bisu played decently. Flash played better. Sucks he went such a late gateway and hesitated as the bunker finished. Life goes on.
On June 10 2012 17:10 Drascus wrote: Flash looked okay. He was the only one who looked good in SC2 though. The rest of them were p bad. Looking forward to seeing how Flash is in about 6 mo or a year. The rest of them have got a LOT of work if they're going to make the transition for reals.
Soulkey was actually pretty good, just didn't handle Muta/Bling/Infestor very well at all. His Ultra attack G1 was just 3-5 seconds too early, otherwise it might have been different (armor upgrade hadn't finished). Stork wasn't that bad either, just got overwhelmed by Flash's macro. I don't think anyone really played horrible except Fantasy and Jaedong vs Bisu. Flash looked extremely good; he isn't at Code-S level yet, but he could easily murder some of the mid-tier pros based on his mechanics alone, espec in TvZ.
Flash is the only one who wouldn't have come apart like a wet paper towel in the pool play. He could have done okay but there's no chance he would have won his group.
I get that these guys are amazing at BW, props to them for that. But this is not the same game, and the BW pros do not necessarily have to be good at SC2, just like Idra was the top Foreigner in BW but certainly is not in SC2.
A valid assumption, but you analogy doesn't really hold water.
Idra was a top BW foreigner because he had great mechanics. He was never super inventive or known for amazing micro. And his status as 'THE' top foreigner in BW is not so clear.
However, Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, Stork, etc. are the total packages. It's not just about mechanics with these guys.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
yeah, and some other things
warp tech indestructible force fields with the potential to give a protoss a free-win. fungaled units not being able to move. colossus (a siege range unit with great splash damage AND high mobility) the ability to throw away all your scvs for MULES
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
Even with MKP's level of control, you can't win TvP in the current metagame w/o marauders
On June 10 2012 17:39 one-one-one wrote: well. 50min 50gas makes warp-tech the best upgrade in the game. the only reason the upgrade exists is to delay warp tech as the game would be completely broken otherwise.
same thing with conc. shell upgrade pretty much, even though it wouln't completely break the game if conc. shells wasn't an upgrade, early game TvP would be quite messed up.
the good answer in both cases is that it is not the way Dustin Browder rolls. SC2 is full of gimmicks that goes against fundamental design principles in RTS-games.
I agree with you, except on your assertion that TvP would be messed up without concussive. Heck, it would be fine without marauders altogether.
What are you even talking about, that's retarded. TvP would NOT be fine without concussive/marauders.
Not for anyone without MKP's level of control at least. If AoE wasn't so powerful though...
Even with MKP's level of control, you can't win TvP in the current metagame w/o marauders
There is a misunderstanding here.
What I meant was that TvP would be messed up in the earlygame if conc. shell was a default ability of the marauder.
Then, a lot of terrans with me hates the marauder because it fills the roll that otherwise would be held by the tank. Of course, the removal of the marauder would be the end of bio play in TvP.
Not sure what people are saying that the pros don't have good micro - They actually control small groups of units to get better concaves or avoid splash damage DURING fights as to maximize DPS. Flash did this a lot vs Stork on the game vs Daybreak, not to mention the storm dodging (only moving units that were in storm so his unstormed army was still attacking) and when he got forcefielded, he only moved the units that were in front of the forcefields getting attacked by zealots so that his army could keep attacking and repositioned his army so that the units that were in front of the forcefield could become part of his concave etc.
These little things are the things that win games at the very highest level.
On June 10 2012 17:11 Inviteme wrote: ppl talking trash about flash when they have no idea whats going on LOL
cheese is so hard to execute at that high level because they face it so many times and they know how to counter every cheese.. flash is just showing some epic skills
Bisu has obviously not been cheesed much by Terran if he thinks it's chill to go triple nexus against T. The BW pros don't have that kind of experience yet. They haven't been playing SC2 for that long, and for some of the time they had to split their time between BW and SC2.
Bisu also knows Flash likes to play greedy way more often then he cheeses based on experience. Not to mention in a new game Flash is more likely to play safe rather than cheesy. That's why he opened fast 3rd against Flash in game 1, and it paid off.
How did it pay off? Bisu lost the game.
I think he's talking about the fact that he opened a fast 3rd with barely, if any pressure from Flash so he got away with it.
IMO you only actually get away with it if you win. I don't think that third nexus ever really paid for itself. Or if it did, that's all it really did, and it would have been better to not have the vulnerability.
What kind of gold level analysis is this bullshit?
Bisu made no robotech, didn't upgrade, had almost 0 units on the field and got away with getting mass WGs + fast 3rd + crazy amount of probes early on. If it wasn't for the fact that Bisu's HT control was god awful at times, he would have stomped Flash.
You let MC get away with that much greed and he would have utterly smashed ANYONE.
"Except for all these terrible, inexperienced mistakes, Bisu was totally winning."
Well okay. I guess he's awesome then? Except that any of the current SC2 pros would have curbstomped Bisu for that.
That's my point. Flash has good macro, and exceptional control. He lacks the experience to do things like brutally punish someone who goes for as greedy a build as Bisu did. He could probably have gone 3-2 in pool play, depending on his group.
All the other BW pros would have been 0-5 in any of the groups. Nobody would have let Bisu get away with that stuff. Jaedong's queen stuff was just bizzare and nonsensical. They were interesting matches, I guess, but they mostly showed that the BW pros have a long way to go making the switch, with Flash leading the pack by a pretty huge margin.
............
Bisu would have never played that greedy in game 1 against anyone else. He knew he could get away with that because he knows for a fact that Flash plays ultra greedy from their BW play. Flash punished him in G2 because he knew there was no way Bisu could power 10 WG / HT tech that fast without playing really greedy.
Jesus fucking christ. If you watched Bisu vs Jaedong you'd see that he ran COOKIE CUTTER PvZ, almost no variation at all from what anyone does. The reason why he played so different against Flash was because he KNEW he had to play that greedy to keep up with him. That is why Flash was so phenomenally good in BW; people had to cut massive corners to keep up with his insane macro.
In fact, his previous match, Bisu looked like a fucking cookie cutter Code-A P before his match vs Jaedong. It was PLAIN OUT COOKIE CUTTER.
If he knows how to play modern SC2 metagame, why did he stutter so badly dealing with that bunker and proxy rax? He allowed not one but two bunkers to complete in his base. Any Code A pro would know that that's death, esp against a player with good micro.
EPT
