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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody.
Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. |
On January 22 2013 08:07 EtherealDeath wrote:
btw Grimmyman, the 14:00 move to the opponent's 3rd on Cloud Kingdom (3) is perfectly normal. I would do that all the time based on the situation in the game and when the 3rd was taken by protoss, and his apparent lack of move out. And actually he hit at a bad angle for where the protoss was.
Although one thing actually has me somewhat spooked from that game. At that same time, he is exceptionally exceptionally quick from hotkey to minimap actions (he actually doesn't stop staring from one general area in his main for about 10 seconds), wherein hotkey will be followed by minimap command in the same frame, followed by another hotkey into minimap 4 frames later, and then another hotkey into minimap in the same frame. But, as far as I know, there is no automation tool that does such a thing, so I think it just means he is really damn fast with the minimap, which explains some other things that look like automation.
i don't think the send lings to third is that scary as well on daybreak game. he didn't find the scouting probe, and the protoss hadn't taken 4 gas yet.
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I'm all for disproving evidence piece by piece if I have to. Its just that there is a LOT of circumstantial evidence, and a few of them are pretty condemning. The one that finally caught my eye, was a 'straight up no good reason to be looking there' Peek through the fog of war on Shakuras at the stalkers at 15:21. Later on he goes to attack the rocks to get at the island expansion.
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Also about Cloud Kingdom (189). The way I see it, he saw emptied chrono energy onto gate with cessation of gas + moving out probe, and probably read that as a gas delay 1 gate expand into something of a probably ~7:20 timing (not including zealot stalker poke). Judging by the amount of droning he did, I would suspect that.
Also, his response was utterly awful given what city was actually doing, and resulted in having to cancel his 3rd. Basically if he had a maphack/production tab hack it would have been trivial to stop that pressure and then counter the protoss. His response was actually about as bad as it possibly could have been.
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[/QUOTE]My bad my bad, I meant to say SPORE Crawler. My post edited as such.
At 5:06 there was a peek in the protoss base, but was as zerglings attack move, which attack he scrubbed.[/QUOTE]
Do you think he has map hacks?
He also went out of his way to kill a second probe that was under fog of war.
The only reason I checked the replay in the first place was because he's friends with hackers, and having a spore crawler up before ever detecting DTs, after looking at toss base under fog of war... fishy >.>;;
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http://sc2ranks.com/us/3071144/sovereignone
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3071144/1/sovereignone/
Hacker name: sovereignone
Server: US
League: EDIT: demoted from masters to diamond  )))
Description: pretty sure he never confirms where our base is before leaving probe at natural, but he could just be bad, seems to react to army pushing at end, but doesnt actually get into a position to do anything, selects entire army at the end and blinks individual stalkers, some of them blinking in retarded direction
replay:http://drop.sc/297498
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On January 22 2013 12:03 chris2423 wrote:http://sc2ranks.com/us/3071144/sovereignonehttp://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3071144/1/sovereignone/Hacker name: sovereignone Server: US League: masters Description: pretty sure he never confirms where our base is before leaving probe at natural, but he could just be bad, seems to react to army pushing at end, but doesnt actually get into a position to do anything, selects entire army at the end and blinks individual stalkers, some of them blinking in retarded direction replay:http://drop.sc/297498
Wow, haha! I just watched the replay, everything you said was true. They cannon rushed you without scouting your base, and obviously looked at your base under fog of war, so they knew you were there. The end was the most funny; they selected all units, but some how were blinking individual stalkers.
After the cannon rush fail, they should have left the game. It's funny that kid thought his blink hack would help him win in the end...
So funny how kids think hacks make them good, this replay just shows how it makes you bad, sooooo bad
~still laughing
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 22 2013 07:57 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 07:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:On January 22 2013 07:47 crbox wrote:If anybody wondered what a scan-move is? + Show Spoiler +
"Scan-Move is a command available to units without an attack, such as high templar and the medivac dropship. The hotkey used is A, the same as the attack command.
Using scan-move "orders selected units to move to the target area or follow the target unit. Scan-Moving units will not engage enemies. " TL;DR Basically just what replaces the attack command in units like overlords and HTs
Weird, units like zerglings shouldn't be a ble to Scan Move, since they have an attack command no? Correct. The line was: 0:24 isurusCham Scan Move; target: x=135.98,y=106.10 which to me says overlord? ah, you live and you learn. thanks crbox.
Disregard this post.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36919 Posts
So what's going on with Cham? Is he a confirmed hacker or...?
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On January 22 2013 17:02 Seeker wrote:
So what's going on with Cham? Is he a confirmed hacker or...?
It's one of those cases, where if it was onlyone replay, I'd just call it a fluke in the method of his gameplay. But there are many replays, and some have minor suspisions, and some have thinks that make the claxon go off, in my opinion. But it isn't as concrete as say, a swoozy replay where a single replay is all you need.
The real tipping point for me, is his admission of hacking previously, with the looking through fog of war on Shakuras at the blink stalkers attacking the rocks. Almost every replay has a little something in it that makes me feel a little off. I just watched a 4 month old replay vs areaKitty ( http://drop.sc/262479 ) which had an instance of looking through the fog of war at some phoenix sitting idle, no other action taken other than the look. But that's it for that replay.
But, as someone pointed, out, I'm just a plat leaguer, what do I know! lol. Nunez? thoughts?
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On January 22 2013 17:02 Seeker wrote:
So what's going on with Cham? Is he a confirmed hacker or...?
Personally, there is some odd stuff here and there, but a lot of the evidence I don't feel is so strong. Also there is the key thing where Cham may play a bit weird (a lot of people on NA do), and he may or may not have an idea how city plays, as they appear to play quite a lot on ladder. So his play may be incorporating assumptions based on city's play, no way for me to tell. I know I incorporated such assumptions often vs non protoss opponents on ladder.
I guess it gets down to the point where, if someone is really good at hiding a hack, it is hard to say with confidence that they're a hacker rather than a clean person. I'm not going to comment where on this gradient I consider Cham to be, not publicly anyways (not that I'm implying I think he's a hacker), but from the evidence that has been posted, I am not comfortable in saying that he hacks.
At any rate, Cham is apparently going to start streaming in a month when he gets his new computer, for what it's worth.
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On January 22 2013 08:22 Chelsea wrote:Show nested quote +My bad my bad, I meant to say SPORE Crawler. My post edited as such.
At 5:06 there was a peek in the protoss base, but was as zerglings attack move, which attack he scrubbed. Do you think he has map hacks? He also went out of his way to kill a second probe that was under fog of war. The only reason I checked the replay in the first place was because he's friends with hackers, and having a spore crawler up before ever detecting DTs, after looking at toss base under fog of war... fishy >.>;;
I have observed from all three viewpoints of Prolegomena, Chodeyscrote, and Pandasaurus.
Only Prolegomena appears to be using a map hack.
Player name: Prolegomena
Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2580896/1/Prolegomena/
Server: NA
League: 2v2 and 3v3 Masters
Replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/21506
5:06 Looks at protoss base under pretext of moving zerglings
5:35 Looks at protoss base under pretext of moving zerglings (again)
5:39 Builds Evo chamber in both his and ally's bases(5:55). Terran ally follows 1 minute later with Engineering bay. Spores placed after completion.
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On January 22 2013 12:03 chris2423 wrote:http://sc2ranks.com/us/3071144/sovereignonehttp://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3071144/1/sovereignone/Hacker name: sovereignone Server: US League: masters Description: pretty sure he never confirms where our base is before leaving probe at natural, but he could just be bad, seems to react to army pushing at end, but doesnt actually get into a position to do anything, selects entire army at the end and blinks individual stalkers, some of them blinking in retarded direction replay:http://drop.sc/297498
Player: sovereignone
Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3071144/1/sovereignone
Server: NA
League: Masters
replay: http://drop.sc/297498
Clear evidence of Blink hack at end of game. Stalkers and sentries selected as group, individually blinks individual stalkers.
Possible autoprobe?
32916 sovereignone Select Nexus (10468), Deselect all
32916 sovereignone Train Probe
32916 sovereignone Move screen x=30.27,y=100.65
32916 sovereignone Select Nexus (10338), Deselect all
22868 sovereignone Select Nexus (10468), Deselect all
22868 sovereignone Train Probe
22868 sovereignone Select Nexus (10338), Deselect all
22868 sovereignone Move screen x=23.58,y=80.39
24020 sovereignone Select Nexus (10338), Deselect all
24020 sovereignone Train Probe
24020 sovereignone Select Cybernetics Core (40528), Deselect all
30676 sovereignone Select Nexus (10338), Deselect all
30676 sovereignone Train Probe
30676 sovereignone Select Probe (104cc), Deselect all
30676 sovereignone Right click; target: Mineral Field (1015c); target: x=15.00,y=84.50
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I played a series of games against Cham on ladder a few months ago, here is how they went:
Game 1: forge expand into 37-probe 8-gate. He droned to 60 and died
Game 2: I gateway expand, he goes 15 pool gasless hatch and doesn't start gas until his overlord is in my base. He loses this game due to me being far enough ahead from the build orders, also going for 2-base muta against my stargate play.
Game 3: I forge expand with a 13 scout, he goes hatch first thinking that I'm gateway expanding again, gets cannon rushed, and dies. He didn't find out about the cannons until they were almost done
I don't think Cham hacks, or used to hack, I think people are reading a lot into him messing with Kane. None of those strategies would work against a map hacker.. Also, that long quote of analyzing replays from Cham seems very circumstantial and non-conclusive to me. I could take a dozen replays of any legitimate player and find equally "suspicious" moments.
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On January 22 2013 07:33 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 06:36 EtherealDeath wrote:[spoiler] On January 22 2013 05:27 Grimmyman123 wrote:On January 20 2013 15:57 city42 wrote:On January 20 2013 15:37 Grimmyman123 wrote:
If you don't mind uploading a few that would be great.
Thing is, while he admits to hacking, he only admits to it having been done on a different account. That is enough proof for us, but that is not enough for Blizz for this exact account. To get a replay would be icing on the cake. drop.sc won't let me upload a pack without signing up for some premium service, so I uploaded it here. Player: Isuruscham aka Cham Rank: GM Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2680634/1/Cham/Several replays were provided. My note are as follows. Daybreak LE (82) 1:20 Looks around under guise of overlord clicks 2:12 Looks around again 5:21 Moves zerglings back to address cannons to which he has no vision at his 3rd. Antiga Shipyard (55) 10:00 Looks around in base 11:30 Looks again 12:20 Loos at army before engaging ]cloud kingdom LE (3) 6:05 - sends lings to get probe 6:07 - Peeks at gases 6:58 - Looks at Zealot 7:00 Looks at empty main 8:29 - Peeks fast 11:27 Looks at army 13:22 peeks at front of base 14:00 positions army left side of map in response to opponent movement DAybreak (261) 1:06 Good looking around 13:09 Looks back at natural expo 13:30 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 14:04 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 15:10 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. Antiga Shipyard 6 Pool. Scouts lucky. Daybreay (231) Nothing notable, usual fascination with checking and double checking his scouting overlords and looking around where they are going. Entombed Valley (197) Scouts Verticle position start. (pre patch?) !!! 4:00 Frequent looks 4:45 Probe at his 3rd. 8:20 looks at front wall 12:20 looks at front wall off 15:01 Auto inject? injects so fast. 16:04 Same as above Cloud kingdom (189) Scouts a 4gate by protoss with no expo, and expands to his 3rd at 5:46 after protoss takes his expo. Has virtually no army. 6:30 fast peek at attack incoming odd thing, his vision shows the timer on hallucinated phoenix. ?? 19:48 Peeks at protoss 4th. Entombed Valley (87) 5:32 peeks at front 9:00 Takes blind 4th after opponent expands with 20 lings as sole defense. Entombed Valley (86) 6pools close by ground positions. Lucky. Shakuras Plateau (63) "Finds" probe with lings at 3rd 9:20 - Push moves out, no vision, instantly makes static defenses at natural and 3rd bases 13:00 Looks at observer 15:21 Peeks through Fog at stalkers shooting at rocks. Replay # 296889 vs Revelations -Looks at front wall severall times -Sends lings to front wall which is not completed. Several instances are key and are sure tells for me: Addressing the unknown Cannons on Daybreak LE (82); Expanding to 3rd though an impending and scouted 4gate or similar push is incoming Cloud kingdom (189); Taking a blind 4th on Entombed Valley (87); and the solid look at the stalkers breaking down rocks on Shakuras Plateau (63) NOTE: This player hides peeks and looks through fog of war VERY well, under the guise of overlord or army units. One example of this is on Cloud Kingdom, as well as other maps, where he will move the army and click on the ramp or near the wall, get his look, and then move elsewhere on the map. The force sometimes is so small that it is obvious there is no intent to attack, and often times does not even poke to see what defense or units are present. This is especially evident on 4 player maps, where he will often send out the overlords to scout, and a GREAT deal of attention to the overlord scouting the proper position will be made, clicking and looking at the opponents base, though actual position not yet scouted proper. If an overlord has vision of an area, almost always the player is looking at the fog of war near this overlord, not at what the overlord actually has vision of. Having watched MANY replays, his vision habits regarding scouting overlords is not normal or even close to it. He's constantly looking around "moving" his overlords in the opponents base and area. My Opinion. The player is using a production tab hack and map hack and is exceedingly smart about it, and disguses most peeks as "movements" of units or overlords. Possible inject hack or assist is employed. Could you add the download links for those games? I can't see the (#) for some reason on any of the drop.sc replays in the ones he linked, so I have no idea which games you are referring to. [/spoler] edit - nvm, me bad edit 2 - Daybreak (261) doesn't look like the standard auto inject in SC2Gears, could just be really damn fast injects. I saw that, doesnt look like a normal auto inject hack. But 4 injects in 1 second is DAMN fast. Watching the replay its a blur. Keyboard macro maybe?
I have not watched the replays, but I wanted to point out that using the backspace method can theoretically allow you to inject on multiple bases in under a second. By holding down that move to base button you spam through the bases really quickly, and can spam shift+v+click in order to inject on every base spammed through. If the replay shows the guy doing the inject perfectly in under a second then it's seemingly impossible, but if he goes over the bases more than once, or misses a click (which I'm not entirely sure how to prove) then it's likely legitimate.
For those who aren't turned off just by his name, Destiny was using a similar method before he switched to LoL. He wouldn't always 100% get every hatch though, but it was in general an extremely fast, if inaccurate method of injects.
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Are these people actually banned or taken action against by Blizzard?
I'm scared about how many they are only in GM/Master. I'm afraid to think about lower leagues, probably thousands.
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On January 23 2013 05:07 RemarK wrote:
I played a series of games against Cham on ladder a few months ago, here is how they went:
Game 1: forge expand into 37-probe 8-gate. He droned to 60 and died
Game 2: I gateway expand, he goes 15 pool gasless hatch and doesn't start gas until his overlord is in my base. He loses this game due to me being far enough ahead from the build orders, also going for 2-base muta against my stargate play.
Game 3: I forge expand with a 13 scout, he goes hatch first thinking that I'm gateway expanding again, gets cannon rushed, and dies. He didn't find out about the cannons until they were almost done
I don't think Cham hacks, or used to hack, I think people are reading a lot into him messing with Kane. None of those strategies would work against a map hacker.. Also, that long quote of analyzing replays from Cham seems very circumstantial and non-conclusive to me. I could take a dozen replays of any legitimate player and find equally "suspicious" moments.
from the latest replays i have seen of cham i have seen nothing that really indicates hacking, however there is still the admission which we disagree on. it does not look at him messing with kane at all, as i noted in my previous post directed to you, and i don't think the admission is not of the sort to piss someone off.
i have already removed the initial post as i think it's too contentious.
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hi - i usually never accuse people of maphack, in my 2½ years of experience in this game ive only accused people who proxy gate me, in my base on 4 player spawned maps - but this guy is quite obvious in his aproach.
http://drop.sc/297773 - this game against the gm protoss "protostitute" - he never scouts my build and never builds a single observer but has perfect army movement against my positions, and he responds perfectly to everything going on in my production tap.
time stamps: 4:45 - goes directly into my reapers path and kills it
07:00: starts to build immortals + mass sentries vs a 1 base bio medivac play(as said, he had no idea was comeing)
10:00 moves outside his base in the direction of an idle medivac in stead of just moveing directly vs my base
10:30 moves to place proxy pylon out side my base-- 3 bunkers pop up on my production tap - so with out any knowledge of this, he stops it- he then expands, adds robo bay and forge instantly-
12:35 he looks at his 3rd base through cloud - and goes to kill my scouting scv down there(not uncommon for a gm player. but still kind of noticeable)
13:00 : starts to move in a weird direction army movement wise- i try to sneak up on his 3rd- but his going at me like half way there leaveing his entire mainbase open if i'd picked another route- he has no knowledge of this, he just does it,.
14:00 - i pick up my entire army for a doom drop- simountaniously he adds 3 cannons in the location i want to drop.
16:40 - he goes in- loseing his entire army - and proceeds to lose the rest of the game as a retarded person. obvious that gm is only inclined because of maphack.
if you have time - thanks alot- i allways feel kind of mutilated when people have this sort of behavior - sad that i cannot add this to some blizzard employee to look over in details :'( .
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Hacker name:  sovereignone
Server: NA
League: diamond
Description:
2v2 game
auto probe production:
33936 sovereignone Select Nexus (10468), Deselect all
33936 sovereignone Train Probe
33936 sovereignone Select Probe x4 (103ec,20458,3069c,1076c), Deselect all
34772 sovereignone Select Nexus (10338), Deselect all
34772 sovereignone Train Probe
34772 sovereignone Select Probe x8 (103d4,103ec,20458,20464,10670,3069c,106dc,1076c), Deselect all
35156 sovereignone Select Nexus (10468), Deselect all
35156 sovereignone Train Probe
35156 sovereignone Select Probe (1070c), Deselect all
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Has anyone played OPstyle and noticed suspicious activity?(protoss high masters)
i rather not post stuff till I get atleast a +1 reinforcement
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On January 23 2013 06:11 denlillemand wrote:hi - i usually never accuse people of maphack, in my 2½ years of experience in this game ive only accused people who proxy gate me, in my base on 4 player spawned maps - but this guy is quite obvious in his aproach. http://drop.sc/297773 - this game against the gm protoss "protostitute" - he never scouts my build and never builds a single observer but has perfect army movement against my positions, and he responds perfectly to everything going on in my production tap. time stamps: 4:45 - goes directly into my reapers path and kills it 07:00: starts to build immortals + mass sentries vs a 1 base bio medivac play(as said, he had no idea was comeing) 10:00 moves outside his base in the direction of an idle medivac in stead of just moveing directly vs my base 10:30 moves to place proxy pylon out side my base-- 3 bunkers pop up on my production tap - so with out any knowledge of this, he stops it- he then expands, adds robo bay and forge instantly- 12:35 he looks at his 3rd base through cloud - and goes to kill my scouting scv down there(not uncommon for a gm player. but still kind of noticeable) 13:00 : starts to move in a weird direction army movement wise- i try to sneak up on his 3rd- but his going at me like half way there leaveing his entire mainbase open if i'd picked another route- he has no knowledge of this, he just does it,. 14:00 - i pick up my entire army for a doom drop- simountaniously he adds 3 cannons in the location i want to drop. 16:40 - he goes in- loseing his entire army - and proceeds to lose the rest of the game as a retarded person. obvious that gm is only inclined because of maphack. if you have time - thanks alot- i allways feel kind of mutilated when people have this sort of behavior - sad that i cannot add this to some blizzard employee to look over in details :'( .
Hacker name: IIIIIIIIIIII
Server: EU
League: grandmastermaster, 255 points, 10 wins / 10 losses
Description:
Protostitute (p, bot right) vs DenLilleMand (t, top right) @ entombed valley
no scout from Prot.
@4:51 pulls stalker from nat back into main and intercepts a reaper he has no vision of. he doesn't even know what spawn terran is.
@7:00 is chronoing out immortals, skipping observer. has only poked up natural ramp, but not far enough to see if terran has expanded or not, so i basically blind.
@7:14 pulls his stalker from the xel naga watch tower so he has no vision for no reason.
@10:00 clicks a lot next to left behind medevac outside his base and moves to take it out.
@10:22 moves his entire army to terrans ramp, proxy pylon queued, but decides to pull back not even poking up ramp.
@13:00 moves out to catch terran army to the left of his third, he only sees it approach the watch tower from the top right.
@14:24 as a big drop is moving in from the bot left side, he moves his entire army to the third base, being completely blind. he has already started adding on cannons, but admittedly he started building them (on the top right) before the drop was loaded up.
@14:36 looks at drop to FoW, and is focusing all his attention on where the drop is incoming. as soon as it comes into vision he immediately warps in stalkers.
@16:40 horrible engagemnt move commanding through the choke between third and nat into an arc.
@17:56 as terran is doing counter pressure, blindly warps in and moves army to third where he's approaching.
@18:40 as a drop is coming into his third, starts up 3 cannons and warps in stalkers there.
@20:15 moves cross map to attack the third with only zealots, 2 sentries, 2 hts and a colo and no reinforcing pylon.
@22:35 moves out to intercept terran army, leading with his HT's as terran gets close.
@23:03 sends zealot up to hidden fifth.
@23:49 spam clicks with ht right next to bio ball and storms it, without having vision of where it is.
@27:23 has not build a single observer.
@29:33 moves out and prespilts his army as terran approaches.is sending a single HT towards the terran army BEFORE he has any vision of it being there.
@32:14 moves his army to kill an idle viking above his third.
Conclusion:
grandmaster protoss who doesn't scout or build observers until ghosts with cloak are moving out to his base 30 minutes into the game, but still counters his opponent, never moves his army / units / hts without intercepting some force or killing a unit he couldn't possibly know is there. blindly throws down cannons and warps in stalkers where drops are incoming.
Note:
previously named Protostitute.
also previously named DropTheBass and provided levelling services:
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EPT
