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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody.
Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. |
On January 22 2013 07:04 wwjqd92 wrote:@Grimmyman123 + Show Spoiler +I'm sorry but I don't think that a platinum player should be someone that is analyzing replays, honestly NONE of your notes were even close to suspectable map hack, the only thing that would be even remotely close is your "auto inject" which isn't auto inject and if it was then you can easily identify it as auto inject with sc2gears for example.
daybreak 86 analysis: just because someone looks through fog of war doesn't mean they are map hacking, maybe he is about to move a unit there and decides not to, etc... I challenge you to find a replay of any high level player in a long game that doesn't look through the fog of war, just because it happens doesn't mean MAP HACKS GUYS, MAP HACKS!!!
Antiga Shipyard 55: same as before
Cloud Kingdom 3: same as before, with zerg you need to flank so he was more then likely just positioning himself for when he did have an engagement
Antiga Shipyard: There is no such thing as close ground position on antiga
Entombed Valley 197: the fog of war stuff, you really need to stop with that, it's one thing to just look @ fog of war, it's another to look @ fog of war and see a dark shrine then instantly respond with a spore or move your units back and make spine crawlers. Scouting for a probe @ your 3rd and behind your mineral lines of expos are incredibly standard to do.
Cloud kingdom 189: Normally when a protoss 4gate gets scouted, they stop 4gating and try transitioning to something else so when he saw that the attack wasn't coming he most likely amused he was just going to expand out of it, and expanded himself, if the attack came, he would still be ready for it regardless so it doesn't matter
Entombed Valley 87: A 9 minute 4th is standard, looking through fog of war doesn't mean jack shit
Entombed Valley 86: 6 pool on close spawns? so what, if you look @ cham's match history he 6 pools more then a majority of players
Shakurahs Plateau 63: Probe hunting is standard, so what if he moves out, once again you are so caught up in the "looking through fog of war"
FOG OF WAR: Everyone, EVERYONE looks through Fog of War, maybe they are going to move a unit there, or attack move there who knows, it is one thing to look through Fog of War, and an entirely different thing to look through fog of war then hard countering exactly what they saw.
Platinum Players shouldn't be analyzing replays not a single point in anything that you posted was even close to suspicious, the things he does are incredibly predictable and standard, you think taking a fast blind 4th as zerg vs toss is suspicious, when it is incredibly standard, you think when he scouts a 4gate and an attack still hasn't arrived @ 6:30 you think they are going to continue 4gating in GM? no, they will transition, and players at that level will know that and expand.
You have a right to your opinion. But I discount yours entirely based on your making a nice pretty brand new account to post. So, you have no credibility. Thanks though for your thoughts.
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On January 22 2013 06:36 EtherealDeath wrote:[spoiler] Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 05:27 Grimmyman123 wrote:On January 20 2013 15:57 city42 wrote:On January 20 2013 15:37 Grimmyman123 wrote:
If you don't mind uploading a few that would be great.
Thing is, while he admits to hacking, he only admits to it having been done on a different account. That is enough proof for us, but that is not enough for Blizz for this exact account. To get a replay would be icing on the cake. drop.sc won't let me upload a pack without signing up for some premium service, so I uploaded it here. Player: Isuruscham aka Cham Rank: GM Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2680634/1/Cham/Several replays were provided. My note are as follows. Daybreak LE (82) 1:20 Looks around under guise of overlord clicks 2:12 Looks around again 5:21 Moves zerglings back to address cannons to which he has no vision at his 3rd. Antiga Shipyard (55) 10:00 Looks around in base 11:30 Looks again 12:20 Loos at army before engaging ]cloud kingdom LE (3) 6:05 - sends lings to get probe 6:07 - Peeks at gases 6:58 - Looks at Zealot 7:00 Looks at empty main 8:29 - Peeks fast 11:27 Looks at army 13:22 peeks at front of base 14:00 positions army left side of map in response to opponent movement DAybreak (261) 1:06 Good looking around 13:09 Looks back at natural expo 13:30 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 14:04 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 15:10 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. Antiga Shipyard 6 Pool. Scouts lucky. Daybreay (231) Nothing notable, usual fascination with checking and double checking his scouting overlords and looking around where they are going. Entombed Valley (197) Scouts Verticle position start. (pre patch?) !!! 4:00 Frequent looks 4:45 Probe at his 3rd. 8:20 looks at front wall 12:20 looks at front wall off 15:01 Auto inject? injects so fast. 16:04 Same as above Cloud kingdom (189) Scouts a 4gate by protoss with no expo, and expands to his 3rd at 5:46 after protoss takes his expo. Has virtually no army. 6:30 fast peek at attack incoming odd thing, his vision shows the timer on hallucinated phoenix. ?? 19:48 Peeks at protoss 4th. Entombed Valley (87) 5:32 peeks at front 9:00 Takes blind 4th after opponent expands with 20 lings as sole defense. Entombed Valley (86) 6pools close by ground positions. Lucky. Shakuras Plateau (63) "Finds" probe with lings at 3rd 9:20 - Push moves out, no vision, instantly makes static defenses at natural and 3rd bases 13:00 Looks at observer 15:21 Peeks through Fog at stalkers shooting at rocks. Replay # 296889 vs Revelations -Looks at front wall severall times -Sends lings to front wall which is not completed. Several instances are key and are sure tells for me: Addressing the unknown Cannons on Daybreak LE (82); Expanding to 3rd though an impending and scouted 4gate or similar push is incoming Cloud kingdom (189); Taking a blind 4th on Entombed Valley (87); and the solid look at the stalkers breaking down rocks on Shakuras Plateau (63) NOTE: This player hides peeks and looks through fog of war VERY well, under the guise of overlord or army units. One example of this is on Cloud Kingdom, as well as other maps, where he will move the army and click on the ramp or near the wall, get his look, and then move elsewhere on the map. The force sometimes is so small that it is obvious there is no intent to attack, and often times does not even poke to see what defense or units are present. This is especially evident on 4 player maps, where he will often send out the overlords to scout, and a GREAT deal of attention to the overlord scouting the proper position will be made, clicking and looking at the opponents base, though actual position not yet scouted proper. If an overlord has vision of an area, almost always the player is looking at the fog of war near this overlord, not at what the overlord actually has vision of. Having watched MANY replays, his vision habits regarding scouting overlords is not normal or even close to it. He's constantly looking around "moving" his overlords in the opponents base and area. My Opinion. The player is using a production tab hack and map hack and is exceedingly smart about it, and disguses most peeks as "movements" of units or overlords. Possible inject hack or assist is employed. Could you add the download links for those games? I can't see the (#) for some reason on any of the drop.sc replays in the ones he linked, so I have no idea which games you are referring to. [/spoler] edit - nvm, me bad edit 2 - Daybreak (261) doesn't look like the standard auto inject in SC2Gears, could just be really damn fast injects.
I saw that, doesnt look like a normal auto inject hack. But 4 injects in 1 second is DAMN fast. Watching the replay its a blur. Keyboard macro maybe?
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Or backspace method?
edit: or maybe a macro that uses the backspace method? because autoinjects are easy to identify through sc2gears...
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On January 22 2013 07:04 wwjqd92 wrote:
@Grimmyman123
I'm sorry but I don't think that a platinum player should be someone that is analyzing replays, honestly NONE of your notes were even close to suspectable map hack, the only thing that would be even remotely close is your "auto inject" which isn't auto inject and if it was then you can easily identify it as auto inject with sc2gears for example.
daybreak 86 analysis: just because someone looks through fog of war doesn't mean they are map hacking, maybe he is about to move a unit there and decides not to, etc... I challenge you to find a replay of any high level player in a long game that doesn't look through the fog of war, just because it happens doesn't mean MAP HACKS GUYS, MAP HACKS!!!
Antiga Shipyard 55: same as before
Cloud Kingdom 3: same as before, with zerg you need to flank so he was more then likely just positioning himself for when he did have an engagement
Antiga Shipyard: There is no such thing as close ground position on antiga
Entombed Valley 197: the fog of war stuff, you really need to stop with that, it's one thing to just look @ fog of war, it's another to look @ fog of war and see a dark shrine then instantly respond with a spore or move your units back and make spine crawlers. Scouting for a probe @ your 3rd and behind your mineral lines of expos are incredibly standard to do.
Cloud kingdom 189: Normally when a protoss 4gate gets scouted, they stop 4gating and try transitioning to something else so when he saw that the attack wasn't coming he most likely amused he was just going to expand out of it, and expanded himself, if the attack came, he would still be ready for it regardless so it doesn't matter
Entombed Valley 87: A 9 minute 4th is standard, looking through fog of war doesn't mean jack shit
Entombed Valley 86: 6 pool on close spawns? so what, if you look @ cham's match history he 6 pools more then a majority of players
Shakurahs Plateau 63: Probe hunting is standard, so what if he moves out, once again you are so caught up in the "looking through fog of war"
FOG OF WAR: Everyone, EVERYONE looks through Fog of War, maybe they are going to move a unit there, or attack move there who knows, it is one thing to look through Fog of War, and an entirely different thing to look through fog of war then hard countering exactly what they saw.
TL;DR Platinum Players shouldn't be analyzing replays not a single point in anything that you posted was even close to suspicious, the things he does are incredibly predictable and standard, you think taking a fast blind 4th as zerg vs toss is suspicious, when it is incredibly standard, you think when he scouts a 4gate and an attack still hasn't arrived @ 6:30 you think they are going to continue 4gating in GM? no, they will transition, and players at that level will know that and expand.
Yep Cham def loves (or loved) to 6 pool protoss players. Did it to me in most of our games :D. Sadly for him I started in base forging or gating after he did that, so from then on he tended to run into a hard counter. And kept running into a hard counter.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 22 2013 05:27 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 15:57 city42 wrote:On January 20 2013 15:37 Grimmyman123 wrote:
If you don't mind uploading a few that would be great.
Thing is, while he admits to hacking, he only admits to it having been done on a different account. That is enough proof for us, but that is not enough for Blizz for this exact account. To get a replay would be icing on the cake. drop.sc won't let me upload a pack without signing up for some premium service, so I uploaded it here. Player: Isuruscham aka Cham Rank: GM Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2680634/1/Cham/Several replays were provided. My note are as follows. Daybreak LE (82) 1:20 Looks around under guise of overlord clicks 2:12 Looks around again 5:21 Moves zerglings back to address cannons to which he has no vision at his 3rd. Antiga Shipyard (55) 10:00 Looks around in base 11:30 Looks again 12:20 Loos at army before engaging ]cloud kingdom LE (3) 6:05 - sends lings to get probe 6:07 - Peeks at gases 6:58 - Looks at Zealot 7:00 Looks at empty main 8:29 - Peeks fast 11:27 Looks at army 13:22 peeks at front of base 14:00 positions army left side of map in response to opponent movement DAybreak (261) 1:06 Good looking around 13:09 Looks back at natural expo 13:30 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 14:04 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. 15:10 - Auto inject? REALLY fast injects, 4 bases in 1 second. Antiga Shipyard 6 Pool. Scouts lucky. Daybreay (231) Nothing notable, usual fascination with checking and double checking his scouting overlords and looking around where they are going. Entombed Valley (197) Scouts Verticle position start. (pre patch?) !!! 4:00 Frequent looks 4:45 Probe at his 3rd. 8:20 looks at front wall 12:20 looks at front wall off 15:01 Auto inject? injects so fast. 16:04 Same as above Cloud kingdom (189) Scouts a 4gate by protoss with no expo, and expands to his 3rd at 5:46 after protoss takes his expo. Has virtually no army. 6:30 fast peek at attack incoming odd thing, his vision shows the timer on hallucinated phoenix. ?? 19:48 Peeks at protoss 4th. Entombed Valley (87) 5:32 peeks at front 9:00 Takes blind 4th after opponent expands with 20 lings as sole defense. Entombed Valley (86) 6pools close by ground positions. Lucky. Shakuras Plateau (63) "Finds" probe with lings at 3rd 9:20 - Push moves out, no vision, instantly makes static defenses at natural and 3rd bases 13:00 Looks at observer 15:21 Peeks through Fog at stalkers shooting at rocks. Replay # 296889 vs Revelations -Looks at front wall severall times -Sends lings to front wall which is not completed. Several instances are key and are sure tells for me: Addressing the unknown Cannons on Daybreak LE (82); Expanding to 3rd though an impending and scouted 4gate or similar push is incoming Cloud kingdom (189); Taking a blind 4th on Entombed Valley (87); and the solid look at the stalkers breaking down rocks on Shakuras Plateau (63) NOTE: This player hides peeks and looks through fog of war VERY well, under the guise of overlord or army units. One example of this is on Cloud Kingdom, as well as other maps, where he will move the army and click on the ramp or near the wall, get his look, and then move elsewhere on the map. The force sometimes is so small that it is obvious there is no intent to attack, and often times does not even poke to see what defense or units are present. This is especially evident on 4 player maps, where he will often send out the overlords to scout, and a GREAT deal of attention to the overlord scouting the proper position will be made, clicking and looking at the opponents base, though actual position not yet scouted proper. If an overlord has vision of an area, almost always the player is looking at the fog of war near this overlord, not at what the overlord actually has vision of. Having watched MANY replays, his vision habits regarding scouting overlords is not normal or even close to it. He's constantly looking around "moving" his overlords in the opponents base and area. My Opinion. The player is using a production tab hack and map hack and is exceedingly smart about it, and disguses most peeks as "movements" of units or overlords. Possible inject hack or assist is employed.
Yeah I checked into it as well, not as obvious as most hackers, not because he doesn't use it as much, but because he's being less obvious with the way he uses it.
There's no doubt in my mind anymore, his name belongs to that list e.e
He also admitted that the hack "doesn't work anymore", admitting that he tried to use it recently as well~
edit: spoilered the big-ass quote
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can anybody explain why his move commands come out as:
0:24 isurusCham Scan Move; target: x=135.98,y=106.10
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On January 22 2013 07:44 nunez wrote:
can anybody explain why his move commands come out as:
0:24 isurusCham Scan Move; target: x=135.98,y=106.10
No idea what a scan move is, ask Dakota_Fanning on TL maybe? He codes SC2Gears.
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On January 22 2013 07:37 Mavvie wrote:
Or backspace method?
edit: or maybe a macro that uses the backspace method? because autoinjects are easy to identify through sc2gears...
A keyboard macro that uses the backspace method and properly set hotkeys me thinks.
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If anybody wondered what a scan-move is?
+ Show Spoiler +
"Scan-Move is a command available to units without an attack, such as high templar and the medivac dropship. The hotkey used is A, the same as the attack command.
Using scan-move "orders selected units to move to the target area or follow the target unit. Scan-Moving units will not engage enemies. " TL;DR Basically just what replaces the attack command in units like overlords and HTs
Weird, units like zerglings shouldn't be a ble to Scan Move, since they have an attack command no?
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On January 22 2013 06:13 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 05:56 ( bush wrote:
wtf, chams vision shows timer of hallucinated phoenix? Yes. That struck me as odd. Honestly I don't know if that is normal or not.
Its normal, I just ran a test game, in replays you see the count down time regardless of which player you are spectating as.
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On January 22 2013 07:47 crbox wrote:If anybody wondered what a scan-move is? + Show Spoiler +
"Scan-Move is a command available to units without an attack, such as high templar and the medivac dropship. The hotkey used is A, the same as the attack command.
Using scan-move "orders selected units to move to the target area or follow the target unit. Scan-Moving units will not engage enemies. " TL;DR Basically just what replaces the attack command in units like overlords and HTs
Weird, units like zerglings shouldn't be a ble to Scan Move, since they have an attack command no?
Correct.
The line was: 0:24 isurusCham Scan Move; target: x=135.98,y=106.10
which to me says overlord?
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On January 22 2013 07:46 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 07:37 Mavvie wrote:
Or backspace method?
edit: or maybe a macro that uses the backspace method? because autoinjects are easy to identify through sc2gears... A keyboard macro that uses the backspace method and properly set hotkeys.
Eh looks just like a normal fast backspace inject. I mean, his queen energy is kind of high to be using automation lol.
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Kinda funny that someone would a-move an overlord...
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This one strikes me as odd as well.
3:24 isurusCham [MinimapClick] Attack; target: x=123.54,y=44.71
3:25 isurusCham [MinimapClick] Attack; target: x=123.54,y=44.71
Which I guess could be attributed to:
A Minimap left click
A Minimap left click
without moving the mouse whatsoever.
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I thought you meant all move commands were replaced by Scan Move commands.
If it's just one it doesn't really mean anything.
Anyways, Scan Move or not It's kinda confirmed now, until we get more info on this I'm gonna be out, spent enough time on Cham already, his team knows he's being accused of hacking, I guess that's all we can do, unless someone really wants to take that to the next level and contact Blizzard, but that isn't really my intention here.
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On January 22 2013 07:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 07:47 crbox wrote:If anybody wondered what a scan-move is? + Show Spoiler +
"Scan-Move is a command available to units without an attack, such as high templar and the medivac dropship. The hotkey used is A, the same as the attack command.
Using scan-move "orders selected units to move to the target area or follow the target unit. Scan-Moving units will not engage enemies. " TL;DR Basically just what replaces the attack command in units like overlords and HTs
Weird, units like zerglings shouldn't be a ble to Scan Move, since they have an attack command no? Correct. The line was: 0:24 isurusCham Scan Move; target: x=135.98,y=106.10 which to me says overlord?
ah, you live and you learn. thanks crbox.
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On January 22 2013 07:57 crbox wrote:
Anyways, Scan Move or not It's kinda confirmed now.
lets not jump to conclusions or be too hasty.
edit: and scan move is just me being ignorant, not anything else. at least in the cases i saw it was overlords being scan moved, which would be fine.
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On January 22 2013 06:30 Grimmyman123 wrote:Please use template in future to help. Player: Prolegomena League: Masters 3v3 ONLY Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2580896/1/Prolegomena/2x peeks at protoss base under pretext of attack move with 'lings. Blind spine crawler defense to DT rush. Does same for shared control allied zerg. No scouting. No other indicators of hacking in this replay.
Not only does Prolegenoma put down a blind spine crawler, but looks at enemy toss base through fog of war and drops an evo chamber. Spine crawlers don't see DTs, but spore crawlers do; which he ends up building before ever scouting the toss base. This whole replay is fishy; one person controlling units, moving all the units to the exact places the other team is attacking with out ever seeing them coming. Please add Prolegomena to the list of hackers. It would be most appreciated <3
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On January 22 2013 08:01 Chelsea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 06:30 Grimmyman123 wrote:Please use template in future to help. Player: Prolegomena League: Masters 3v3 ONLY Profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2580896/1/Prolegomena/2x peeks at protoss base under pretext of attack move with 'lings. Blind spine crawler defense to DT rush. Does same for shared control allied zerg. No scouting. No other indicators of hacking in this replay. Not only does Prolegenoma put down a blind spine crawler, but looks at enemy toss base through fog of war and drops an evo chamber. Spine crawlers don't see DTs, but spore crawlers do; which he ends up building before ever scouting the toss base. This whole replay is fishy; one person controlling units, moving all the units to the exact places the other team is attacking with out ever seeing them coming. Please add Prolegomena to the list of hackers. It would be most appreciated <3
My bad my bad, I meant to say SPORE Crawler. My post edited as such.
At 5:06 there was a peek in the protoss base, but was as zerglings attack move, which attack he scrubbed.
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btw Grimmyman, the 14:00 move to the opponent's 3rd on Cloud Kingdom (3) is perfectly normal. I would do that all the time based on the situation in the game and when the 3rd was taken by protoss, and his apparent lack of move out. And actually he hit at a bad angle for where the protoss was.
Although one thing actually has me somewhat spooked from that game. At that same time, he is exceptionally exceptionally quick from hotkey to minimap actions (he actually doesn't stop staring from one general area in his main for about 10 seconds), wherein hotkey will be followed by minimap command in the same frame, followed by another hotkey into minimap 4 frames later, and then another hotkey into minimap in the same frame. But, as far as I know, there is no automation tool that does such a thing, so I think it just means he is really damn fast with the minimap, which explains some other things that look like automation.
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EPT
