|
On May 10 2012 20:10 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 19:53 StarBrift wrote:On May 10 2012 19:32 yoigen wrote:On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game. You could creed spread before when hellions were out with good queen control and spinecrawler movement. Most zergs are just to bad to do that. No. You could spread creep against terrans with bad multitasking IF you took a risk and made 2 spines so that you could move one without getting 6-8 helions dive into your base and end the game. Or could spread your creep to whatever place 1 spine could defend. Then you'd have maybe 8 creep tumors waiting on the edge of your natural ramp / entrance just for those 4 helions to dissapear so you could keep spreading. If you are counting games where zergs make 2 spines and a good number of lings just to get their creep spread out then yeah, that's what they paid to get creep spread and you should be clearly ahead in econ. Then they mass drone to get to a good econ and you are now clearly ahead in tech / units. Most good zergs play now without lings just to get drone count up to match a terran FE. With that style your creep tumors stop at your natural ramp. So no. Most zergs weren't too bad to creep spread vs helions. Most terrans are too bad to actually watch their helions and stop creep spread from the zerg. Whenever I get matched up against a progamer terran that opens up helions they will not only stop creep spread but they will most likely scan and stop further spread unless you have 4 queens. Even with 3 queens (1 queen completely devoted to creep spread) terran can deny creep 100% with a very insignificant cost to econ. Actually the biggest reason why 2 queen, 2 hatch, 2 base muta never ever works vs anything that is not some kind of 1 base 2 star banshee all in is the fact that helion openinigs deny creep so easily. You can not play low econ muta with 2 queens if your creep gets shut down. Really? Being unable to spread creep because you're only building drones is unfair?
Careful, if you push him too far, he'll start claiming marines and mules are OP and that scans are free.
|
I don't like the queen buff..
|
Really dislike the queen range buff, will be harder to prevent creepspread early game for terran which once again makes the terran to be more aggresive earlygame..
|
On May 10 2012 19:52 Maekchu wrote:I find it funny how everyone whines about the 5 range for the Queen saying Zerg don't need to place a spine anymore... You do know, that whether the Queen have 3 or 5 range. It's damage is crap. So you will still be able to put on some pressure with hellions, but it's a bit harder to micro now. Also, Blizz did come up with an explanation for making the buff for the Queen. Show nested quote +Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
-We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
-We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4347080/Call_to_Action_Balance_Testing-03_05_2012#blogWhether or not you think this explanation is sufficient is up to you though. But they did have some kind of argumentation for the buff. Anyway, these changes are so small that they are hardly going to have any decisive influence on any match outcomes below master/grandmaster. So I say, put away your forks and pitches...
What? Im only high diamond and this changes will seriously affect me. I dont think you realise how much of a nerf to hellion openers it is. Without the ability to deny creep, things like early tank marine pushes are now hugely weaker.
Also, zergs can be even greedier as hellion all ins are far worse.
This is not a small patch, its a big deal.
|
too much qq in this thread. I feel there needs to be league restrictions on QQing. Any1 below masters that dont really know what they're talking about are just clogging the thread up with negativity and wrong information.
I like these changes, a lot.
|
On May 10 2012 19:55 wildstyle1337 wrote:
queen have melee attack with range 5 ? :O
No. Queens never had a melee attack, it's always been ranged, even though the animation is of them striking the target with their limbs. Queens' ground attack benefits from the ranged attack upgrade, and its damage is reduced by Guardian Shield.
|
|
|
On May 10 2012 20:10 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 19:53 StarBrift wrote:On May 10 2012 19:32 yoigen wrote:On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game. You could creed spread before when hellions were out with good queen control and spinecrawler movement. Most zergs are just to bad to do that. No. You could spread creep against terrans with bad multitasking IF you took a risk and made 2 spines so that you could move one without getting 6-8 helions dive into your base and end the game. Or could spread your creep to whatever place 1 spine could defend. Then you'd have maybe 8 creep tumors waiting on the edge of your natural ramp / entrance just for those 4 helions to dissapear so you could keep spreading. If you are counting games where zergs make 2 spines and a good number of lings just to get their creep spread out then yeah, that's what they paid to get creep spread and you should be clearly ahead in econ. Then they mass drone to get to a good econ and you are now clearly ahead in tech / units. Most good zergs play now without lings just to get drone count up to match a terran FE. With that style your creep tumors stop at your natural ramp. So no. Most zergs weren't too bad to creep spread vs helions. Most terrans are too bad to actually watch their helions and stop creep spread from the zerg. Whenever I get matched up against a progamer terran that opens up helions they will not only stop creep spread but they will most likely scan and stop further spread unless you have 4 queens. Even with 3 queens (1 queen completely devoted to creep spread) terran can deny creep 100% with a very insignificant cost to econ. Actually the biggest reason why 2 queen, 2 hatch, 2 base muta never ever works vs anything that is not some kind of 1 base 2 star banshee all in is the fact that helion openinigs deny creep so easily. You can not play low econ muta with 2 queens if your creep gets shut down. Really? Being unable to spread creep because you're only building drones is unfair?
Yeah it's so unfair that Zerg actually have an advantage in certain aspects of the game.
|
From a Protoss perspective, it's annoying that Queens are becoming the ultimate answer to any pressure I can do against Zerg, which is practically required in order to take a third against the inevitable roach max. Queens really didn't need to be better against Zealots and Stalkers. This also makes 1 base openings worse, since one of their strengths was the ability to put on some pressure with chronoboosted units before speed finished.
|
On May 10 2012 20:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 20:10 Saechiis wrote:On May 10 2012 19:53 StarBrift wrote:On May 10 2012 19:32 yoigen wrote:On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game. You could creed spread before when hellions were out with good queen control and spinecrawler movement. Most zergs are just to bad to do that. No. You could spread creep against terrans with bad multitasking IF you took a risk and made 2 spines so that you could move one without getting 6-8 helions dive into your base and end the game. Or could spread your creep to whatever place 1 spine could defend. Then you'd have maybe 8 creep tumors waiting on the edge of your natural ramp / entrance just for those 4 helions to dissapear so you could keep spreading. If you are counting games where zergs make 2 spines and a good number of lings just to get their creep spread out then yeah, that's what they paid to get creep spread and you should be clearly ahead in econ. Then they mass drone to get to a good econ and you are now clearly ahead in tech / units. Most good zergs play now without lings just to get drone count up to match a terran FE. With that style your creep tumors stop at your natural ramp. So no. Most zergs weren't too bad to creep spread vs helions. Most terrans are too bad to actually watch their helions and stop creep spread from the zerg. Whenever I get matched up against a progamer terran that opens up helions they will not only stop creep spread but they will most likely scan and stop further spread unless you have 4 queens. Even with 3 queens (1 queen completely devoted to creep spread) terran can deny creep 100% with a very insignificant cost to econ. Actually the biggest reason why 2 queen, 2 hatch, 2 base muta never ever works vs anything that is not some kind of 1 base 2 star banshee all in is the fact that helion openinigs deny creep so easily. You can not play low econ muta with 2 queens if your creep gets shut down. Really? Being unable to spread creep because you're only building drones is unfair? Careful, if you push him too far, he'll start claiming marines and mules are OP and that scans are free.
heavens from team light showed exactly how you could creep good, he was at the middle of the map very soon. only thing he did against the hellions were 2 roaches pushing forward with the creep. But zergs are so greedy and only want drones drones drones. now i guess you can drone with full injects AND get some queens aditionally instead of spending your o so valuable gas into 2-3 roaches.
|
stephano's queen troll builds just got scarier
|
this will be so nice to see.
|
On May 10 2012 19:55 wildstyle1337 wrote:
queen have melee attack with range 5 ? :O
Have you ever seen the attack animation ^^ Sometimes I wish all units had tank markers.
|
On May 10 2012 20:13 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 19:52 Maekchu wrote:I find it funny how everyone whines about the 5 range for the Queen saying Zerg don't need to place a spine anymore... You do know, that whether the Queen have 3 or 5 range. It's damage is crap. So you will still be able to put on some pressure with hellions, but it's a bit harder to micro now. Also, Blizz did come up with an explanation for making the buff for the Queen. Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
-We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
-We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4347080/Call_to_Action_Balance_Testing-03_05_2012#blogWhether or not you think this explanation is sufficient is up to you though. But they did have some kind of argumentation for the buff. Anyway, these changes are so small that they are hardly going to have any decisive influence on any match outcomes below master/grandmaster. So I say, put away your forks and pitches... What? Im only high diamond and this changes will seriously affect me. I dont think you realise how much of a nerf to hellion openers it is. Without the ability to deny creep, things like early tank marine pushes are now hugely weaker. Also, zergs can be even greedier as hellion all ins are far worse. This is not a small patch, its a big deal.
It is a nerf for hellion openings, which is also what they wanted to do with this buff.
But I think people over exaggerate a bit on this. Currently, Terran is able to completely shut down the creep spread of a Zerg without no big risk really. Zerg have to go either roach or make big amounts of Zerglings to push away the hellions, and the zerglings are pretty ineffective, since you just pushed away the creep, right. Oh... And Queens get kited.
With a buff in giving the Queen the same range as a hellion, she will be able to deal some damage back to the hellions for denying the creep. You can still snipe the tumors, but if you want to do that, you'll have to exchange some HP of the hellions in order to get the tumor. It's not like the Queen will insta-kill your hellions. Her damage will stay the same. If you don't repair your hellions, there will get a point in time where they are so low, that you'll probably lose them. But you have managed to deny creep for some time...
I don't see how this is not fair... In order to deny the creep the terran have to take some kind of loss. A fraction of HP that the Queen dealt during the time it took to kill the tumor seems reasonable to me. Her damage is NOT buffed, so if Zerg decide to play extremely greedy. Not placing a spine and having atleast a few zerglings. You can always just make a runby like you could before.
|
can someone link a video of the queen attack range in action?
|
On May 10 2012 20:25 Maekchu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 20:13 Squigly wrote:On May 10 2012 19:52 Maekchu wrote:I find it funny how everyone whines about the 5 range for the Queen saying Zerg don't need to place a spine anymore... You do know, that whether the Queen have 3 or 5 range. It's damage is crap. So you will still be able to put on some pressure with hellions, but it's a bit harder to micro now. Also, Blizz did come up with an explanation for making the buff for the Queen. Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
-We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
-We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4347080/Call_to_Action_Balance_Testing-03_05_2012#blogWhether or not you think this explanation is sufficient is up to you though. But they did have some kind of argumentation for the buff. Anyway, these changes are so small that they are hardly going to have any decisive influence on any match outcomes below master/grandmaster. So I say, put away your forks and pitches... What? Im only high diamond and this changes will seriously affect me. I dont think you realise how much of a nerf to hellion openers it is. Without the ability to deny creep, things like early tank marine pushes are now hugely weaker. Also, zergs can be even greedier as hellion all ins are far worse. This is not a small patch, its a big deal. It is a nerf for hellion openings, which is also what they wanted to do with this buff. But I think people over exaggerate a bit on this. Currently, Terran is able to completely shut down the creep spread of a Zerg without no big risk really. Zerg have to go either roach or make big amounts of Zerglings to push away the hellions, and the zerglings are pretty ineffective, since you just pushed away the creep, right. Oh... And Queens get kited. With a buff in giving the Queen the same range as a hellion, she will be able to deal some damage back to the hellions for denying the creep. You can still snipe the tumors, but if you want to do that, you'll have to exchange some HP of the hellions in order to get the tumor. It's not like the Queen will insta-kill your hellions. Her damage will stay the same. If you don't repair your hellions, there will get a point in time where they are so low, that you'll probably lose them. But you have managed to deny creep for some time... I don't see how this is not fair... In order to deny the creep the terran have to take some kind of loss. A fraction of HP that the Queen dealt during the time it took to kill the tumor seems reasonable to me. Her damage is NOT buffed, so if Zerg decide to play extremely greedy. Not placing a spine and having atleast a few zerglings. You can always just make a runby like you could before.
but thats the point of the buff being unfair. terran has to make some commitment in terms of cutting eco by getting fact//reactor//hellions to get scouting and deny creep spread.
while zerg had to cut some eco too to regain creep spread (by getting roach//spines or mass speedlings). now zerg is perfectly fine with just getting queens, so he can regain creep spread and mantain full eco at same time. and thats why its unfair
|
On May 10 2012 20:14 TAMinator wrote:
too much qq in this thread. I feel there needs to be league restrictions on QQing. Any1 below masters that dont really know what they're talking about are just clogging the thread up with negativity and wrong information.
I like these changes, a lot.
That is such a ridiculous suggestion. I see you don't know what your talking about!
Changes seem okay, like the overlord change. Not sure about the queen change, but i guess it's alright.
|
As a Terran, having 10 hellions snipe 2 queens in under 20 seconds with small micro was laughable. Zerg's answer to <6 min aggression is lings, but lings are useless against groups of hellions.
Roaches are a huge commitment mineral/gas/time wise. As a Zerg you either time a lair with busting out at 7+ minutes with spines/creep/queens/small batches of lings or you open roach and try for a faster 3rd now that hellions can't deny it as easily.
The game would be very stagnant and predictable if ALL Terrans opened hellions and ALL Zergs had to open roach to hold it.
|
i CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL......
Sincerely that sucks...
Protoss and zerg will have better scout to counter terran all ins but terran no... Scan is not used to scout cause one scan costs 300 mineral. And it s very easy for protoss and zerg to hide their tec.
But with fast observer and fast overlords so cool...
And now banshee ( already very limited time to be usefull) are useless...
And Do you know why protoss doesnt scout terran ? cause they know they will rock with their death ball.. No need to scout...
So ridiculous buff for toss...
And for zerg...
Queen range.... Blizzard please cancel reaper helion cause they are completely useless in your game.
You wanna protect zerg vs helions but would it be possible for you to protec terran vs violet push or 4 gate or 2 base robo all ins ??? Terran needs to know when it is coming and make 4/5 bunkers to defend with mass scvs for repair... But you dont consider we need help... and with 40s for bunkers instead 30 it s very hard....
Now zerg will be able to mass drone, no sunken cause queen can defend easy vs helions and the map control will be huge cause a lot of creep and fast overlords...
So impossible to harass in early game and very hard to drop...
And what for the tvp late game ??? You told there is a problem and you are about to nerf indirectly the terrans ???? wtf ????
|
On May 10 2012 18:19 Douillos wrote:* LOLOL obs cost ?
what about it? it didn't fix the issues that needed fixing
lolol all you want, that doesn't change the fact that this change was desperately needed
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
