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On May 10 2012 12:52 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:47 GTPGlitch wrote:On May 10 2012 12:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. Zergs DO have a hard time spreading creep, please don't make stupid judgments just because you watch pro streams on ladder where they fool around and have full map creep spread. You rarely even see Zergs in GSL go past half the map. And so often, Terran takes out most of your tumors with just 1-2 scans. Please use your mind. Oh rats! It must be so disappointing to only get free speed boost/vision on HALF the map, not the WHOLE map. Ugh, what a total shame! In reality, I can't really see the sense behind these changes. Pretty much every non-zerg and even several zergs in the call to action thread were completely against queen changes (multiple pros chimed in as well)... And Blizzard just decides to go through with the changes, because so many zergs were having so much trouble with reactor hellions and reapers... EDIT: don't you think that maybe a hellion expand gives a Terran to much?
map ctrl a free natural and when you want a earlier third then zerg.
you get a factory and a reactor you could also deny creep.
you force at least a spine
serious don't you think thats a bit much for just 4 hellions? If you take a faster third than zerg its usually very easy to scout and easy to kill terran (3CC is slightly harder, but a well-timed baneling bust will usually destroy everything). Factory+reactor=200/150 +4 hellions=600/150 Spine =150/0 Wow, so expensive.... Uh, well considering how essential it is as a Zerg to just...not die...yes, it's kind of a big deal. Also, a "well-timed baneling bust" is all-in. So it's okay to you that the standard Terran opening dictates the other race all-in according to what you think is the natural response?
If you die to 4-6 Helions you did something very very wrong because thats the most a Terran build with a standard opening. I mean there should be something that make a Zerg build something but Drones and Queens. Else it would be completely broken consdering there's no way to produce SCV's at a similar rate. If you play a TvZ and allow the Zerg to just build Drones until he's fully saturated without at least faking pressure you might as well just leave the game after the loading screen.
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On May 10 2012 12:45 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:40 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:36 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 dAPhREAk wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On May 10 2012 12:20 tnud wrote:On May 10 2012 12:16 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:14 Corrosive wrote:
Still don't understand how this changes hellion openings. Hellions are faster and usually they have to run by queens to kill drones anyway, right? It's not like the queen is going to come into range of the hellion and every hellion on the map will spontaneously combust. Terrans just complaining about no buffs, overreacting All terran buffs since release: Patch 1.1.2:
- Supply Depot health increased from 350 to 400
Patch 1.3.0:
Battlecruiser:
- Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.
Patch 1.4.0:
Raven:
-Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. This is ignoring the back and forth with the bunker. The Thor changes makes them unusable besides funky lategame TvZ. Yep.. terran getting all the buffs before... >____> Ghost Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. thats a buff. less gas. Don't think this counts as a buff considering it only made Terran unable to spend all their gas in TvP . it means you dont have to mine as much gas, which is more precious than minerals. It means the hardest race to spend gas/mineral is Terran. Cause Protoss and Zerg can fucked up their macro and have tons of gas but still use it (sentry/HT or Infest/bl) Easiest to spend minerals, marines. Terrans need to work out a usefull unit to spend that gas on late game. colossi/bl equiv, but what is that? Ravens are pretty good, they are expensive but so are our high tier units. Ravens against lategame Toss ? For what ? PDD only works against Stalkers that no Toss wants to build anyway. The other abilities are a joke. Autoturrets are a gimmick and Seeker Missile needs so much Energy that once the Raven has enough for it Feedback will instantly kill the Raven not to mention the abysmal range it has. Ravens are only useful with Mechbuilds even in the other MU's and guess what sucks against Toss . Yeah you guessed right Mechbuilds.
If i feedback a raven, It will be less storms on your army and what range does feedback have? if its the same as storm you will seeker then the feedback will land and then nothing will happen except me getting hit by a seeker missile. It will depend on the speed of the players, which it should unlike snipe, I wish they nerfed snipe range by 1 and put the emp radius and snipe damage back up.
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On May 10 2012 12:11 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Queen and observer change are probably the worst changes I've seen in SC2.
Even change for blue flame upgrade icon from red to blue was better.
The amusing thing about that change is that it made the hellion +10 upgrade way op. Before that change, nobody even considered it.
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On May 10 2012 12:52 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:47 GTPGlitch wrote:On May 10 2012 12:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. Zergs DO have a hard time spreading creep, please don't make stupid judgments just because you watch pro streams on ladder where they fool around and have full map creep spread. You rarely even see Zergs in GSL go past half the map. And so often, Terran takes out most of your tumors with just 1-2 scans. Please use your mind. Oh rats! It must be so disappointing to only get free speed boost/vision on HALF the map, not the WHOLE map. Ugh, what a total shame! In reality, I can't really see the sense behind these changes. Pretty much every non-zerg and even several zergs in the call to action thread were completely against queen changes (multiple pros chimed in as well)... And Blizzard just decides to go through with the changes, because so many zergs were having so much trouble with reactor hellions and reapers... EDIT: don't you think that maybe a hellion expand gives a Terran to much?
map ctrl a free natural and when you want a earlier third then zerg.
you get a factory and a reactor you could also deny creep.
you force at least a spine
serious don't you think thats a bit much for just 4 hellions? If you take a faster third than zerg its usually very easy to scout and easy to kill terran (3CC is slightly harder, but a well-timed baneling bust will usually destroy everything). Factory+reactor=200/150 +4 hellions=600/150 Spine =150/0 Wow, so expensive.... Uh, well considering how essential it is as a Zerg to just...not die...yes, it's kind of a big deal. Also, a "well-timed baneling bust" is all-in. So it's okay to you that the standard Terran opening dictates the other race all-in according to what you think is the natural response?
Well, uh, yeah? It's called good decision-making? Like... you could sit and wait for the 3 base Terran to kick in against a 3base zerg, or you could go kill the terran... That's like saying if Protoss scouts a 14cc->fast tech they shouldn't do a 4gate and instead expand and try to play from behind or something...
And its essential for every race to not die, and none of them except zerg get free non-temporary vision and the only other T1 flying vision comes from hallucination, and you actually have to research hallucination.
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On May 10 2012 12:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 11:55 JEcho wrote:
the queen buff will help alot with 2 rax rushes and even just 1 rax rushes, sorry if no1 thought it was stupid terran could bunker rush you with 1 scv and 2-3 marines, best case scenario winning the game (or gaining a stupid big advantage if the bunker finishes) and worst case breaking even because you force lings and lose max 1 scv + 3 marines while safely going reactor hellion at home behind a wall. Yes, it will help in making them obsolete.
Bunker rushes won't be obsolete. They hit before queens are out most of the time, so you can still get that first bunker up with good control. All early pressure openings will be severely weakened, though.  I thought that was the job of overlord speed....
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On May 10 2012 12:55 zOula... wrote:
I just pray to the good Lord Christ above that this patch makes the game playable again for Mac users
There is not going to be a patch apparently, just server-side changes after maintenance, so you might have to keep praying. (or go to tech support).
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Really terrible.
I'm embarrassed for blizzard's balance team
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On May 10 2012 12:45 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:39 Gosi wrote:
And Terran gets nothing. This isn't even fun anymore. You can scream and show statistics from GSL on how good Terran is how much you want, the point is still that all of us are just ladder scrubs trying to have fun but we don't because it gets so stale quickly when we get nerfed every patch. Meanwhile P and Z gets new buffs in their favour even when they are doing just fine at the same time as they are throwing so much shit in our fucking faces because Terran was OP way back and Terran players in the pro scene sweep the floor with their competition like it has anything to do with Terran being OP now in 2012.
No wonder the ladder is a Z/P fest. zzzz Correction. Pro scene is not dominated by terran anymore. Latest MLG was won by a Zerg. Previous GSL is won by the same Zerg player (u know who). And the current GSL Semi Final consists of 3 protoss and 1 Terran. So yeah, Terran is supposingly strongest in the early/mid game and weakest in the late game but now our advantage is denied by P and Z's faster scouting and also stronger queen defence. So where do we stand now?
What gets lost in the collective backlash against Terran over the last 18 months is that Terran was never really OP at any of our levels, unless you are in GM. MVP and MMA are OP, not Marines( which are insanely hard countered by everyones mid game units).
It is a simple case of self interest and incentives. Z and P have a natural interest in seeing Terran get shittier. They see MVP win 3 GSL's, and boom theres fodder for 18 months of bitching until it is this accepted fact about Terran being OP. Except really we havent really been since early 2011, if even then. But don't tell the thought police that.
Just my two cents. I love the observer change, because I hate when terrans get build order wins with banshee against P. But the queen change just doesn't make sense to me. I feel like there has to be a change that helps the ZvP matchup more then then ZvT.
TvZ is the most balanced, complete and entertaining matchup in the game. I think you are playing with fire a little bit when the standard T opening in this matchup takes a fairly serious nerf. And make no mistake, a nerf it is. Kiting and harassing queens with hellions isn't huge, but it is an important nuisance that we have to do to get into the mid game in position to play a good macro game
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On May 10 2012 12:57 m!st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:45 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:40 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:36 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 dAPhREAk wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On May 10 2012 12:20 tnud wrote:On May 10 2012 12:16 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:14 Corrosive wrote:
Still don't understand how this changes hellion openings. Hellions are faster and usually they have to run by queens to kill drones anyway, right? It's not like the queen is going to come into range of the hellion and every hellion on the map will spontaneously combust. Terrans just complaining about no buffs, overreacting All terran buffs since release: Patch 1.1.2:
- Supply Depot health increased from 350 to 400
Patch 1.3.0:
Battlecruiser:
- Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.
Patch 1.4.0:
Raven:
-Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. This is ignoring the back and forth with the bunker. The Thor changes makes them unusable besides funky lategame TvZ. Yep.. terran getting all the buffs before... >____> Ghost Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. thats a buff. less gas. Don't think this counts as a buff considering it only made Terran unable to spend all their gas in TvP . it means you dont have to mine as much gas, which is more precious than minerals. It means the hardest race to spend gas/mineral is Terran. Cause Protoss and Zerg can fucked up their macro and have tons of gas but still use it (sentry/HT or Infest/bl) Easiest to spend minerals, marines. Terrans need to work out a usefull unit to spend that gas on late game. colossi/bl equiv, but what is that? Ravens are pretty good, they are expensive but so are our high tier units. Ravens against lategame Toss ? For what ? PDD only works against Stalkers that no Toss wants to build anyway. The other abilities are a joke. Autoturrets are a gimmick and Seeker Missile needs so much Energy that once the Raven has enough for it Feedback will instantly kill the Raven not to mention the abysmal range it has. Ravens are only useful with Mechbuilds even in the other MU's and guess what sucks against Toss . Yeah you guessed right Mechbuilds. If i feedback a raven, It will be less storms on your army and what range does feedback have? if its the same as storm you will seeker then the feedback will land and then nothing will happen except me getting hit by a seeker missile. It will depend on the speed of the players, which it should unlike snipe, I wish they nerfed snipe range by 1 and put the emp radius and snipe damage back up.
Ravens are more expensive than HTs, and building a raven requires a starport with tech lab.
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Well the zerg buffs are welcome, hopefully this helps top tier Zs a bit in early game.
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On May 10 2012 12:53 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:48 power-overwhelming wrote:On May 10 2012 12:45 gengka wrote:On May 10 2012 12:39 Gosi wrote:
And Terran gets nothing. This isn't even fun anymore. You can scream and show statistics from GSL on how good Terran is how much you want, the point is still that all of us are just ladder scrubs trying to have fun but we don't because it gets so stale quickly when we get nerfed every patch. Meanwhile P and Z gets new buffs in their favour even when they are doing just fine at the same time as they are throwing so much shit in our fucking faces because Terran was OP way back and Terran players in the pro scene sweep the floor with their competition like it has anything to do with Terran being OP now in 2012.
No wonder the ladder is a Z/P fest. zzzz Correction. Pro scene is not dominated by terran anymore. Latest MLG was won by a Zerg. Previous GSL is won by the same Zerg player (u know who). And the current GSL Semi Final consists of 3 protoss and 1 Terran. So yeah, Terran is supposingly strongest in the early/mid game and weakest in the late game but now our advantage is denied by P and Z's faster scouting and also stronger queen defence. So where do we stand now? At equal footing. Sorry, 6 months of all TvT's forced Blizz to bring Terran down to the same level as Zerg and Protoss  Don't be silly, we have ZVZ and PVP GSL Finals before. and you have MC as the 2 times protoss champion also Nestea the 3 times Zerg champions. You can only remember TVT because its the best mirror match up to watch comparing to ZVZ and PVP. LMAO
If you want to try out that battle, look at how many Zergs have actually reached the round of 8 any given season starting from January 2011 (the first non-open season). Aside from one season where there was NesTea, CoCa, and LosirA, there's basically been an average of about 1 Zerg in the round of 8 each season. Sounds absolutely outstanding, bro.
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terrans... feeling like lategame tvp is in a tough place right now is one thing
thinking this queen buff is gonna be a problem or that tvz isn't a pretty fair or favored matchup for T from top to bottom is getting a little carried away
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Wow, couldnt disagree with the changes more.
Observer speed is probably the worst of 3, as someone said, its an indirect buff to collossus and immortal. Making the choice of immortal vs observer first much more "forgiving". I really dislike observers, they are too good for map vision imo.
Queen range is also an horrible change, shuts down heavily early aggression (which is not necessary a bad thing).
Oh and the overlord change is super good. Agree 100%
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can queens still catch overlords you think?>
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So... now terrans have to go 1 rax expo against zerg too instead of reactor hellion. fuck this
let zergs get 4 bases for free
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I'm still wondering about the reason of this patch's existence.
I haven't really followed the patch 1.4.3.2 history so this is all speculation; anyway like some of you said, Blizzard may have used MLG or GSL results or whatever. Well I think this patch is actually aimed towards the BW progamers who are switching to sc2. In my opinion, this patch might be adressing some of the issues that the progamers seem to have. We know that some progamers, especially Zerg ones, have been expressing some concerns. I have a feeling that this patch is more of an accommodation, to make the transition easier.
Does that make sense?
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On May 10 2012 13:01 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
can queens still catch overlords you think?>
The new overlords are still the slowest unit in the game.
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I'm not a big fan of the queen change. I'm in favor for the overlord change and as for the observer change I don't think it's completely necessary but it's a nice addition.
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Man this is going to be interesting how this affects TvZ. The majority of TvZ builds seem to rely on some sort of reactor hellion, if you can't kill creep without taking heavy damage from a queen how will these builds work. If they will work...Idk be interesting how this plays out on the pro level. Can't wait to see.
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On May 10 2012 12:39 Gosi wrote:
And Terran gets nothing. This isn't even fun anymore. You can scream and show statistics from GSL on how good Terran is how much you want, the point is still that all of us are just ladder scrubs trying to have fun but we don't because it gets so stale quickly when we get nerfed every patch. Meanwhile P and Z gets new buffs in their favour even when they are doing just fine at the same time as they are throwing so much shit in our fucking faces because Terran was OP way back and Terran players in the pro scene sweep the floor with their competition like it has anything to do with Terran being OP now in 2012.
No wonder the ladder is a Z/P fest. zzzz
Cause terran doesn't need anything at the highest level? That's what this game is balanced around. If you don't like that, leave. They're not going to cater to bad low level terrans and then break the pro scene.
This is hardly a change to TvP, and Terrans are doing fine in TvZ so I don't know why you have to freak out.
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EPT
