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As a Zerg player I completely sympathise with Terrans and to some extend Protoss with the queen change. Losing to bunker shenanigans is almost exclusively the fault of a Zerg, arguable except for the uncommon case of getting that 3 bunker wall on the choke of some maps (Cloud Kingdom). Even in that specific case, much fault falls on the Zerg. Reactor hellion -> CC is NOT in anyway a strong build which Zerg players need help with. My speedling/roach opening/3 queen entirely shuts down the first set of hellions at very little cost to econ and enables me to take a very fast third with ~4 roaches and spread creep without impedance.
It is entirely possible that I can now delay or even forgo roach for the sake of more queens, enabling much faster and more future minded investment of gas (upgrades/faster lair etc). Not to mention the crazy utility extra queens give in the early game, ie, drops are significantly more risky/ineffective since a scouted drop now has a much higher likelihood of being met by 3-4 queens before it touches down, banshees now face the possibility of meeting a similar fate coupled with the fact that a well rounded queen-centric opening will have faster evos or lair (due to gas surplus), weird marine/scv all ins after failed bunkers are now even more likely to be utterly crushed by possible queen-centric build (transfuse and kiting). Also kiting zealots..... fucking ay.
I feel that intelligent Zergs (hopefully myself included) could find really good queen-centric builds which allow for a re-prioritization of gas and an implicit safety against air/drop plays. Creep spread will become unstoppable since an abundance of five-range queens ensures both the safety of tumors and queens themselves.
To me, this feels like a big loss in the ZvT early game dynamic which is partially solved by the overlord speed change. Having such a strong anti-air, anti-ground mineral only unit which buffs unit speed and static defenses will beget one a uniformly strong build against all Terran openings that aren't extremely all in. To me, this would be a shame and I'd feel a bit cheated if such a build was realised.
But uhhh, thanks for the ladderpoints Blizzard.
Edit: They should bring reaper speed back to tech-lab tech thus creating a cool speedreaper opening which has to dodge queens trying to zone them out and greedy fast third bases could actually be punished with mines. Assuming they bring mines back too. Call me David Kim!
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overlord speed buff will be so annoying now, they will fly and scout your base like overseers
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Lowering observer build times in the robo... are they wishing for more colossus massing?
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I'm starting to wonder if blizzard really is paying attention to the game. Reapers could barely kite queens, they removed reaper kiting roaches, now hellions can't even kite queens...
Say hello to free creep spread.
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Cool, so they'll see how it effects the general ladder, if at all.
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On May 10 2012 12:46 VincendioS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. You cannot take a third against hellions without making roaches. Unless the Terran goes to sleep with his hellions. Zergs DO have a hard time spreading creep, please don't make stupid judgments just because you watch pro streams on ladder where they fool around and have full map creep spread. You rarely even see Zergs in GSL go past half the map. And so often, Terran takes out most of your tumors with just 1-2 scans. Please use your mind. I'm using my mind I'm sorry. Actually you CAN take a third without roaches. Did you ever see the time to kill an hatch with hellions? You can make zerglings just to let your drone making the hatch. and then fall back. And no zerg havent hard time spreading creep. It's pretty normal in mid game that the terran scan the creep but I was talking about early game. If you can spreak you creep faster then the push from the Terran will be slower because the creep will be obviously nearer of the Terran base. It makes the mid game terran weaker and so, the lategame will be too.
Make lings to do what? How are lings going to protect a drone going to make the third base from hellions?
Lol.
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On May 10 2012 12:46 di3alot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. don't you think that maybe a hellion expand gives a Terran to much? map ctrl a free natural and when you want a earlier third then zerg. you get a factory and a reactor you could also deny creep. you force at least a spine serious don't you think thats a bit much for just 4 hellions?
that's not too much wtf
how else are terrans supposed to put pressure on zerg in the early game
no wait we're just supposed to let them drone up and kill us
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Don't know what all this complaining about creep spread is about. Nothing stopping you running in, roasting tumours, running away. Yeah you take a tiny bit of dmg from the queen but really...
Hellions still give you map control, still deny creep - not sure what the fuss is about.
I wonder if Ts are just complaining because now they have look at their hellions every so often :p
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On May 10 2012 12:47 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. Zergs DO have a hard time spreading creep, please don't make stupid judgments just because you watch pro streams on ladder where they fool around and have full map creep spread. You rarely even see Zergs in GSL go past half the map. And so often, Terran takes out most of your tumors with just 1-2 scans. Please use your mind. Oh rats! It must be so disappointing to only get free speed boost/vision on HALF the map, not the WHOLE map. Ugh, what a total shame! In reality, I can't really see the sense behind these changes. Pretty much every non-zerg and even several zergs in the call to action thread were completely against queen changes (multiple pros chimed in as well)... And Blizzard just decides to go through with the changes, because so many zergs were having so much trouble with reactor hellions and reapers... EDIT: Show nested quote +don't you think that maybe a hellion expand gives a Terran to much?
map ctrl a free natural and when you want a earlier third then zerg.
you get a factory and a reactor you could also deny creep.
you force at least a spine
serious don't you think thats a bit much for just 4 hellions? If you take a faster third than zerg its usually very easy to scout and easy to kill terran (3CC is slightly harder, but a well-timed baneling bust will usually destroy everything). Factory+reactor=200/150 +4 hellions=600/150 Spine =150/0 Wow, so expensive....
Uh, well considering how essential it is as a Zerg to just...not die...yes, it's kind of a big deal.
Also, a "well-timed baneling bust" is all-in. So it's okay to you that the standard Terran opening dictates the other race all-in according to what you think is the natural response?
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On May 10 2012 12:46 di3alot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. don't you think that maybe a hellion expand gives a Terran to much? map ctrl a free natural and when you want a earlier third then zerg. you get a factory and a reactor you could also deny creep. you force at least a spine serious don't you think thats a bit much for just 4 hellions?
The hellions arent free and yes they sometimes makes zerg put down spines in a matchup that is 50-50. What new strategys are you guys anticipating from terran to catchup with this Z buff?
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On May 10 2012 12:48 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:45 gengka wrote:On May 10 2012 12:39 Gosi wrote:
And Terran gets nothing. This isn't even fun anymore. You can scream and show statistics from GSL on how good Terran is how much you want, the point is still that all of us are just ladder scrubs trying to have fun but we don't because it gets so stale quickly when we get nerfed every patch. Meanwhile P and Z gets new buffs in their favour even when they are doing just fine at the same time as they are throwing so much shit in our fucking faces because Terran was OP way back and Terran players in the pro scene sweep the floor with their competition like it has anything to do with Terran being OP now in 2012.
No wonder the ladder is a Z/P fest. zzzz Correction. Pro scene is not dominated by terran anymore. Latest MLG was won by a Zerg. Previous GSL is won by the same Zerg player (u know who). And the current GSL Semi Final consists of 3 protoss and 1 Terran. So yeah, Terran is supposingly strongest in the early/mid game and weakest in the late game but now our advantage is denied by P and Z's faster scouting and also stronger queen defence. So where do we stand now? At equal footing. Sorry, 6 months of all TvT's forced Blizz to bring Terran down to the same level as Zerg and Protoss 
what equal footing
Terrans have the worst late game. And the biggest way Terrans are strong mid game is how much harass we can do early game.
now we won't have that
so that's fun.
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On May 10 2012 12:48 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:45 gengka wrote:On May 10 2012 12:39 Gosi wrote:
And Terran gets nothing. This isn't even fun anymore. You can scream and show statistics from GSL on how good Terran is how much you want, the point is still that all of us are just ladder scrubs trying to have fun but we don't because it gets so stale quickly when we get nerfed every patch. Meanwhile P and Z gets new buffs in their favour even when they are doing just fine at the same time as they are throwing so much shit in our fucking faces because Terran was OP way back and Terran players in the pro scene sweep the floor with their competition like it has anything to do with Terran being OP now in 2012.
No wonder the ladder is a Z/P fest. zzzz Correction. Pro scene is not dominated by terran anymore. Latest MLG was won by a Zerg. Previous GSL is won by the same Zerg player (u know who). And the current GSL Semi Final consists of 3 protoss and 1 Terran. So yeah, Terran is supposingly strongest in the early/mid game and weakest in the late game but now our advantage is denied by P and Z's faster scouting and also stronger queen defence. So where do we stand now? At equal footing. Sorry, 6 months of all TvT's forced Blizz to bring Terran down to the same level as Zerg and Protoss
Don't be silly, we have ZVZ and PVP GSL Finals before. and you have MC as the 2 times protoss champion also Nestea the 3 times Zerg champions.
You can only remember TVT because its the best mirror match up to watch comparing to ZVZ and PVP. LMAO
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On May 10 2012 12:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:21 ig0tfish wrote:On May 10 2012 12:16 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:14 Corrosive wrote:
Still don't understand how this changes hellion openings. Hellions are faster and usually they have to run by queens to kill drones anyway, right? It's not like the queen is going to come into range of the hellion and every hellion on the map will spontaneously combust. Terrans just complaining about no buffs, overreacting Zerg and toss buffs= Terran QQ. Fixed that for you.
Because Terrans are the ones who had a sad zealot everywhere until they got a buff LOL
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I don't understand the queen buff, Blizzard said they were helping zergs scout better this patch. They did that by increasing overlord speed but what is the reason behind the queen buff?
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On May 10 2012 12:51 Zrana wrote:
Don't know what all this complaining about creep spread is about. Nothing stopping you running in, roasting tumours, running away. Yeah you take a tiny bit of dmg from the queen but really...
Hellions still give you map control, still deny creep - not sure what the fuss is about.
I wonder if Ts are just complaining because now they have look at their hellions every so often :p
sure
if theres 1 queen
what if there's 2?
or 3?
or 4?
not so easy to fry creep tumors. if you lose any of the hellions, you're putting yourself at a pretty big disadvantage
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On May 10 2012 12:46 VincendioS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:34 VincendioS wrote:On May 10 2012 12:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 10 2012 12:26 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 12:23 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how all these terrans say "no need to make roaches or spines anymore". Queens are still going to kill hellions EXTREMELY slow, so if you don't have roaches or spines the terran will still put their hellions in the mineral line and kill all drones even if the zerg is attacking with queens. You wall with Evos and put 5 range Queens to block in between . Why exactly would you need Roaches or Spines ? And once you see a committed wall like that, you plop down a 3rd CC because the Zerg isn't taking a third base anytime soon due to that much static defense. And then you are ahead economically. And the problem is....? Please use your mind. There is not problem in the actual TvZ in early/mid game. When you see games from pros, zergs havent hard time spreading their creep. So making a buff of the queen will make it way more easier. So it let the zerg make what the fuck he wants. (taking 3rd drone up) and the Terran just can't deal with it anymore. It forces to go the the late game point where Terran are weaker if they don't got any advantage in the early/mid game. That's the problem. You cannot take a third against hellions without making roaches. Unless the Terran goes to sleep with his hellions. Zergs DO have a hard time spreading creep, please don't make stupid judgments just because you watch pro streams on ladder where they fool around and have full map creep spread. You rarely even see Zergs in GSL go past half the map. And so often, Terran takes out most of your tumors with just 1-2 scans. Please use your mind. I'm using my mind I'm sorry. Actually you CAN take a third without roaches. Did you ever see the time to kill an hatch with hellions? You can make zerglings just to let your drone making the hatch. and then fall back. And no zerg havent hard time spreading creep. It's pretty normal in mid game that the terran scan the creep but I was talking about early game. If you can spreak you creep faster then the push from the Terran will be slower because the creep will be obviously nearer of the Terran base. It makes the mid game terran weaker and so, the lategame will be too.
Eh, just to clarify a bit...it's not really wrong to say that Z can't take a third without Roaches, a good Terran will have Hellions denying creep, lings or drones from exiting the natural expansion, so without Roaches you really can't move out at all without Roaches unless you happen to get lucky with a good Ling surround on the Hellions. You make the mistake of thinking that Terran will be attacking the 3rd Hatch with Hellions when in reality the drone will never get far enough to make that Hatch in the first place.
Anyways, I don't know if the Queen change is really necessary, it's nice sure, but nothing I woulda asked for. Overlord speed change is great and probably shoulda happened a long time ago.
If I was to take a guess I'd say Blizzard made the Queen change to somewhat diminish the raw strength of using Hellions. Look at it this way, on some maps like say Metalopalis where the natural expansion is wide, you basically need Roaches to keep safe, even if you have a couple Spines and Queens it doesn't matter, Terrans will just blindly run their Hellions in and roast shit while your Queens wobble around chasing them barely doing any damage, this range will actually let Queens punish such sloppy Hellion play and deal with it in a realistic manner.
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On May 10 2012 12:35 sertas wrote:
im master zerg and im not a big fan of playing this game im more of a fan watching, but when i watch lategame PvT it looks so .. imbalanced and now its just adding insult to injury buffing observer time, while it looks like terran might have a small advantage mid game i dont think its enough to force a win if protoss knows what hes doing.
I don't know if you noticed but terran have won almost every major tournament recently and protoss haven't won any nor have they been particularly well-represented in the ro8s of any competition except GSL code S. Also protoss may be doing well in this season's code S but don't forget they haven't won a GSL in over a year. At masters level TvP may be difficult but at the very top level terran players can push advantages in the mid game before protoss has major splash out as we saw in code A matches in the last few days where terrans won every series. A player like Parting may make the match up look one-sided sometimes but he's actually playing with a huge amount of skill in his control and has lost series to Alive and Heart recently so is hardly invulnerable. Also you can say the same thing when MMA plays TvZ- the match up looks horribly one-sided sometimes when he plays but that's a testament to his skill.
I know I harp on about this but these misconceptions annoy me- 1. that protoss is dominating high level tournaments and 2. that player like Parting and Squirtle have no skill and only win because of imbalance. Defending against a good terran midgame is not easy and players should get credit for their ability to do it.
Edit- as for the obsever change I'm not sure if it was necessary. Cloakshees are still an autowin against mass gateway no robo style though so nothing's changed in that regard.
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queen buff too strong. shoulda made it 4 range.
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I just pray to the good Lord Christ above that this patch makes the game playable again for Mac users
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On May 10 2012 11:55 JEcho wrote:
the queen buff will help alot with 2 rax rushes and even just 1 rax rushes, sorry if no1 thought it was stupid terran could bunker rush you with 1 scv and 2-3 marines, best case scenario winning the game (or gaining a stupid big advantage if the bunker finishes) and worst case breaking even because you force lings and lose max 1 scv + 3 marines while safely going reactor hellion at home behind a wall.
Yes, it will help in making them obsolete.
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EPT
