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On May 05 2012 09:23 Forikorder wrote:
its not used as much but if you go 2 port and deny the overlord from seeing it you win because they have too many banshees for you to get enough queens and spores up to deal with
It's very rare on pro level. It is however an issue for lower tier zergs. If you watch for example Blade5555 stream, when he commentates he knows lots of stuff so he can predict when the banshee should be coming so that build doesnt seem to be tricky when you are knowledgable.
The overlord buff however should help even with that - a minor bonus for lower tier which even they deserve it too.
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On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On May 05 2012 09:12 ThePrinceAli wrote:On May 05 2012 09:11 Forikorder wrote:On May 05 2012 09:09 ThePrinceAli wrote:
[quote]
"Snipe" the queen? The thing has 175 hp with 1 armor, is quite fast on creep, and now has 5 range in this map...You can't "snipe" it with a slow small force of zealot/sentry as it can run around on creep, unless the zerg literally has no other defenses. if onyl toss had some fast unit off T1 with 6 range its a shame they dont but massive queen isnt the solution, FFing the ramp barely happens thats more of a map makers problem then Blizzs problem there are plenty of maps you cant FF the ramp easily and im pretty sure VRs get bonus to massive so it would make holding air alot harder If only that unit didn't suck versus speedlings that can easily surround if there's no FFs  if only Toss didnt have a unit that absolutely shredded them that only cost 100 minerals Queens being massive would only affect late game fights where noone FFs anyway since most toss get archons or early game defenses where you cant afford to have lots of queens and sentry drop harass it owuldnt outright break PvZ it wouldnt help it either though Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?!
The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts
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On May 05 2012 09:19 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:17 Falcor wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Zarahtra wrote:
I know this is only the test map, but I'm really loose all hope for Blizzard. They seem so out of touch with the game... What exactly was their issue with reactor hellions? I just don't... that zerg could lose outright to early aggression because of lack of creep spread and early scouting. They are fixing the scouting. The only real "early aggression" that can end games in such a way is hellion rauder allin, which I'd like to point out has been out for ages without any changes and never seemed to be much of an issue. Other aggressions can be stopped aslong as the zerg isn't being overly greedy
All of these things have been out for ages. 2 port, mass hellion, hellion rauder(hellion rauder is just bad) etc that to this day if it's not scouted it's auto lose. even after the strategies have been around forever. Just because terran doesn't play it every game doesn't mean it's not a issue.
but how many games have been lost because 3-6 hellions make it into someones base and lings can't defend it because theres very little creep that early and queens can't stay in range long enough.
But imo the biggest issue is we can't even stop hellions from just sitting outside our base stopping any creep spread without making a shit load of lings or putting down a roach warren and making 4 or 5 roaches.
All of that just to spread fucking creep wish has been proven to be essential for a zerg to be successful. So it's either give us a way to being to push hellions back or spread creep earlier. Since 2 extra creep tumors were so OP i guess we now have to go with the option that lets us push back the hellions
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On May 05 2012 09:37 D_bo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On May 05 2012 09:12 ThePrinceAli wrote:On May 05 2012 09:11 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
if onyl toss had some fast unit off T1 with 6 range
its a shame they dont
but massive queen isnt the solution, FFing the ramp barely happens thats more of a map makers problem then Blizzs problem there are plenty of maps you cant FF the ramp easily and im pretty sure VRs get bonus to massive so it would make holding air alot harder If only that unit didn't suck versus speedlings that can easily surround if there's no FFs if only Toss didnt have a unit that absolutely shredded them that only cost 100 minerals Queens being massive would only affect late game fights where noone FFs anyway since most toss get archons or early game defenses where you cant afford to have lots of queens and sentry drop harass it owuldnt outright break PvZ it wouldnt help it either though Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?! The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts
You're just wrong here. SO so so so so wrong. You don't completely destroy the macro mechanic by killing a queen. You shut it down for a short period of time because you invested in something that isn't that useful outside of harassment and vs mutalisks. If phoenix don't take out at least 1 or 2 queens and some drones they aren't worth the investment that you put into them. It's not hard to shut down a low number of phoenix anyways, put a spore crawler in each mineral line and they can't come in and pick stuff up because they'll die doing it.
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The problem with early TvsZ right now is that Terran can win by a coinflip. It's not about the X strategy allin possibility like 2 base banshee. It is the fact that Terran can totally shut out any early scout and go for an allin that could be anything from mass hellions +marauders, Mass tanks, Marines+SCV allin or mass banshees. Each strategy requires a different response from zerg in order to defend which is fucking hard if you cannot scout it, and by the time you see it move out there is a good chance you are too late to actually defend against it, if you even made the right choice in the first place.
I think IdrA put it best when he was talking about it with Day[9]; that it could not be scouted and there wasn't one build that could defend against every variation Terran can come up with.
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but how many games have been lost because 3-6 hellions make it into someones base and lings can't defend it because theres very little creep that early and queens can't stay in range long enough.
Make 2 spines at last. Don't be so greedy!!!
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On May 05 2012 09:46 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +but how many games have been lost because 3-6 hellions make it into someones base and lings can't defend it because theres very little creep that early and queens can't stay in range long enough. Make 2 spines at last. Don't be so greedy!!!
2 spines is standard? still doesn't stop 6 hellions when 4 make it into your base?
edit:and what about the main points i made for why the queens changes are happening...theres nothing greedy about trying to spread creep...
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On May 05 2012 09:43 ePLocust wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:37 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On May 05 2012 09:12 ThePrinceAli wrote:[quote] If only that unit didn't suck versus speedlings that can easily surround if there's no FFs if only Toss didnt have a unit that absolutely shredded them that only cost 100 minerals Queens being massive would only affect late game fights where noone FFs anyway since most toss get archons or early game defenses where you cant afford to have lots of queens and sentry drop harass it owuldnt outright break PvZ it wouldnt help it either though Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?! The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts You're just wrong here. SO so so so so wrong. You don't completely destroy the macro mechanic by killing a queen. You shut it down for a short period of time because you invested in something that isn't that useful outside of harassment and vs mutalisks. If phoenix don't take out at least 1 or 2 queens and some drones they aren't worth the investment that you put into them. It's not hard to shut down a low number of phoenix anyways, put a spore crawler in each mineral line and they can't come in and pick stuff up because they'll die doing it.
if i kill a mule they dont have to morph a new orbital, if they kill a queen i have to make a new queen
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On May 05 2012 09:55 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:43 ePLocust wrote:On May 05 2012 09:37 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
if only Toss didnt have a unit that absolutely shredded them that only cost 100 minerals
Queens being massive would only affect late game fights where noone FFs anyway since most toss get archons or early game defenses where you cant afford to have lots of queens and sentry drop harass it owuldnt outright break PvZ it wouldnt help it either though
Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?! The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts You're just wrong here. SO so so so so wrong. You don't completely destroy the macro mechanic by killing a queen. You shut it down for a short period of time because you invested in something that isn't that useful outside of harassment and vs mutalisks. If phoenix don't take out at least 1 or 2 queens and some drones they aren't worth the investment that you put into them. It's not hard to shut down a low number of phoenix anyways, put a spore crawler in each mineral line and they can't come in and pick stuff up because they'll die doing it. if i kill a mule they dont have to morph a new orbital, if they kill a queen i have to make a new queen
yea and the protoss invested at least 600 minerals and 450 gas to kill said queen. That's a pretty damn large investment
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On May 05 2012 09:50 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:46 Jimbo77 wrote:but how many games have been lost because 3-6 hellions make it into someones base and lings can't defend it because theres very little creep that early and queens can't stay in range long enough. Make 2 spines at last. Don't be so greedy!!! 2 spines is standard? still doesn't stop 6 hellions when 4 make it into your base? edit:and what about the main points i made for why the queens changes are happening...theres nothing greedy about trying to spread creep...
You do not need 2 spines to deal with hellions unless it is an all in. To deal with them all you need is to wall off with and evo and another structure plus 1-2 queens on the ramp. The hellions cannot effectively attack up a ramp without heavily committing, if they do choose to attack you can easily clean them up with a couple of lings your spine and queens. If you want a different perspective on this think about a terran who does not wall in and complains about ling stab backs killing all of his workers when he moves out, you would tell him to sim city better and wall off.
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On May 05 2012 09:55 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:43 ePLocust wrote:On May 05 2012 09:37 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
if only Toss didnt have a unit that absolutely shredded them that only cost 100 minerals
Queens being massive would only affect late game fights where noone FFs anyway since most toss get archons or early game defenses where you cant afford to have lots of queens and sentry drop harass it owuldnt outright break PvZ it wouldnt help it either though
Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?! The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts You're just wrong here. SO so so so so wrong. You don't completely destroy the macro mechanic by killing a queen. You shut it down for a short period of time because you invested in something that isn't that useful outside of harassment and vs mutalisks. If phoenix don't take out at least 1 or 2 queens and some drones they aren't worth the investment that you put into them. It's not hard to shut down a low number of phoenix anyways, put a spore crawler in each mineral line and they can't come in and pick stuff up because they'll die doing it. if i kill a mule they dont have to morph a new orbital, if they kill a queen i have to make a new queen
Exactly, with the other races the energy / mana just rebuild you don't have to spend more minerals just be able to macro again.
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On May 05 2012 10:06 Inty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:50 Falcor wrote:On May 05 2012 09:46 Jimbo77 wrote:but how many games have been lost because 3-6 hellions make it into someones base and lings can't defend it because theres very little creep that early and queens can't stay in range long enough. Make 2 spines at last. Don't be so greedy!!! 2 spines is standard? still doesn't stop 6 hellions when 4 make it into your base? edit:and what about the main points i made for why the queens changes are happening...theres nothing greedy about trying to spread creep... You do not need 2 spines to deal with hellions unless it is an all in. To deal with them all you need is to wall off with and evo and another structure plus 1-2 queens on the ramp. The hellions cannot effectively attack up a ramp without heavily committing, if they do choose to attack you can easily clean them up with a couple of lings your spine and queens. If you want a different perspective on this think about a terran who does not wall in and complains about ling stab backs killing all of his workers when he moves out, you would tell him to sim city better and wall off.
No we need 2 spines because we don't know what is coming...hence the ovie change
And sure 1-2 queens on the ramp is nice but if those queens even move to spread creep or inject like they normally do(nothing worse then a hellion run by just after you move your queens to inject). Unless you have 4 queens you are going to be vulnerable.
Generally for me i just would go 2 evos up front and a spine and 3 queens(1 to spread creep/wall in 2 to inject) to block off my base(altho if i was defending against a all in and not hellions it would be a hinderance because it gives them a natural choke and i have to wait for them to push into my base to engage).
But none of that helps spread creep...
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On May 05 2012 10:09 D_bo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:55 Forikorder wrote:On May 05 2012 09:43 ePLocust wrote:On May 05 2012 09:37 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 09:31 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:30 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 Zarahtra wrote:On May 05 2012 09:24 D_bo wrote:On May 05 2012 09:17 Zarahtra wrote:
[quote]
Massive units can't be lifted by phoenix either, so it'd obviously effect SG play a lot(read: make it useless) Exactly.. Should you be able to nueter a race's macro mechanic so easily? Well I'm a terran, so my opinion on exactly this is quite uneffected by bias. Yes, yes you should. Seeing the sacrifice protoss makes to make the SG and any unit from it, it has to have some potential to reward it. I was however a bit hasty, someone pointed out correctly that VRs would do +20% dmg against queens if they were massive, so that *might* make it enough to balance the graviton beam not being usable(though admittedly I doubt it, seeing as the queen VR still can't touch spores, the queen can always just dmg it a bit and run back to the safety of the spore). So where is my Zerg unit that drains all energy from your orbital? Better yet.. where is my Zerg unit the turns your Orbital back into a CC? They're called burrow banelings, or infestors! Next question?! The point is with ever other race you can "harass" their macro mechanic by killings its output Terran (Mule) Protoss (Probes). You don't actually destroy the macro mechanic. And before you say Contaminate or EMP on Nexus / Orbital think about the timing for ghosts You're just wrong here. SO so so so so wrong. You don't completely destroy the macro mechanic by killing a queen. You shut it down for a short period of time because you invested in something that isn't that useful outside of harassment and vs mutalisks. If phoenix don't take out at least 1 or 2 queens and some drones they aren't worth the investment that you put into them. It's not hard to shut down a low number of phoenix anyways, put a spore crawler in each mineral line and they can't come in and pick stuff up because they'll die doing it. if i kill a mule they dont have to morph a new orbital, if they kill a queen i have to make a new queen Exactly, with the other races the energy / mana just rebuild you don't have to spend more minerals just be able to macro again.
They're not just trading energy they invested in the phoenix with at least 600 minerals and 450 gas. Also look at late game zerg and how that works. Trading energy and units that come from an attack trading for units that cost minerals and gas.
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On May 05 2012 09:45 Integra wrote:
The problem with early TvsZ right now is that Terran can win by a coinflip. It's not about the X strategy allin possibility like 2 base banshee. It is the fact that Terran can totally shut out any early scout and go for an allin that could be anything from mass hellions +marauders, Mass tanks, Marines+SCV allin or mass banshees. Each strategy requires a different response from zerg in order to defend which is fucking hard if you cannot scout it, and by the time you see it move out there is a good chance you are too late to actually defend against it, if you even made the right choice in the first place.
I think IdrA put it best when he was talking about it with Day[9]; that it could not be scouted and there wasn't one build that could defend against every variation Terran can come up with.
This guy is correct. It's not 2 port banshee, it's not marauder hellion, it's not all in 2 base tank marine push. It's the fact that as zerg you don't know what is coming. Overlord scouting is shut down by a single marine and early lings are killed by hellions. By the time you get roaches, mass speedling to luckily surround hellions or 2 base muta, it's too late to react properly. Another issue lies with the possibility that terran is going for something greedy like reactor hellion into double expand and you have no way of knowing. With an increase in queen range zerg players will be able to get their creep to their third and out onto the map to properly secure a third and have time to react to early aggression. As it currently stands, a terran player can sit hellions in front of your natural and you have to guess if they are going to go all in or take a quick 3rd and there's no general proper drone count or unit composition to safely get into the midgame on even footing without guessing correctly. On the other hand, terran players have more versatility when it comes to defense (marines, bunkers, tanks) and can scout zerg early on with hellions poking at the front and scans if completely necessary. They also have the ability to see zerg leave their base and have a good 30 seconds or longer to respond by positioning their army and making additional bunkers. With a lack of creep spread, an early game terran army will just randomly appear and either you blindly made enough units to defend or overdroned in anticipation of a macro game and instantly lose.
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A queen is a f. huge deal.
When your mule dies you rebuild it with no cost.
When your queen dies, not only you have to spend 150 again but also you are losing 1 inject time = 4 larva = units.
And every larva matters since zerg is not given cc/nex and rax/gateway to make units separately from workers.
Result = your ability to hold push/keep up with macro oriented enemies is nullified.
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5-range queens? That means no more kiting with hellions and such? 
Faster overlords = gotta revamp my early game overlord sniping pattern lol darn it
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On May 05 2012 10:14 Chicken Chaser wrote:5-range queens? That means no more kiting with hellions and such? Faster overlords = gotta revamp my early game overlord sniping pattern lol darn it
Exactly. It's a bigger deal than it's being made to seem. All the timings on every map that we've become accustomed too are now changed.
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On May 05 2012 10:13 Lokerek wrote:
A queen is a f. huge deal.
When your mule dies you rebuild it with no cost.
When your queen dies, not only you have to spend 150 again but also you are losing 1 inject time = 4 larva = units.
And every larva matters since zerg is not given cc/nex and rax/gateway to make units separately from workers.
Result = your ability to hold push/keep up with macro oriented enemies is nullified.
You're comparing apples and oranges. In the same argument you can say missing calling down a MULE will delay your mineral income --> pushes back your production. Sure you can call down extra and all of a sudden surge to like 1000 minerals, but you can't spend all of that at once (you can queue units but your production is the same as before but delayed).
Also, mules can die too from harrass (phoenixes, mutalisks, any kind of eco harrass that picks off MULES before SCVs). And that's a big deal too. I understand the macro mechanics for each race is different, but all 3 can suffer from the same snowball effects when something doesn't go right.
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On May 05 2012 10:18 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:14 Chicken Chaser wrote:5-range queens? That means no more kiting with hellions and such? Faster overlords = gotta revamp my early game overlord sniping pattern lol darn it Exactly. It's a bigger deal than it's being made to seem. All the timings on every map that we've become accustomed too are now changed.
That's funny you're the first to comment on this because I totally took your overlord sniping to heart after I watched you play lol.
(btw this is orlyOWL from NA server--if you can recall )
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On May 05 2012 10:20 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:18 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 05 2012 10:14 Chicken Chaser wrote:5-range queens? That means no more kiting with hellions and such? Faster overlords = gotta revamp my early game overlord sniping pattern lol darn it Exactly. It's a bigger deal than it's being made to seem. All the timings on every map that we've become accustomed too are now changed. That's funny you're the first to comment on this because I totally took your overlord sniping to heart after I watched you play lol. (btw this is orlyOWL from NA server--if you can recall )
If I can recall. Please, of course I remember you.
I go hunting for OLs like I'm starving!
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EPT
