EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 89
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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Leth0
856 Posts
On May 05 2012 13:04 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: 5 range Melee for Queens means that zealots will never kill a queen again. oh well interesting change either way. I'd like you to walk us through your thought process that brought you to that conclusion. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote: Queen is utterly stupid. A lot of people are trying out builds like 2gate again (non allin) and this would KILL 2gate. Not to mention it would kill 2rax as well, as well as reaper openings, and be notably better vs hellions. Absolutely fucking ridiculous again... TERRIBLE change. I'd rather see the creep change. How can people like this? Because it doesn't affect their single build they do, while completely shitting on every other nonstandard build out there? elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Instead we see T doing far more 1 base in TvP. I think most people have an incorrect understanding of the viability and strength of T 1 base in TvZ. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 05 2012 13:04 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: 5 range Melee for Queens means that zealots will never kill a queen again. oh well interesting change either way. Or you would prefer 50 energy queen instead? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:17 FakeDeath wrote: Or you would prefer 50 energy queen instead? I'd rather the queen not be changed at all... | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
Sadly, Blizzard seems adamant to implement change towards the queen. 5 range Queen would be good though but i wouldn't called it OP. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:13 Let it Raine wrote: elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. except if you build 2 gateways and zealots behind it you're delaying your expansion by for-fucking-ever so it's not merely a "pressure" it's something that absolutely has to do damage because you WG is significantly delayed and your probe count is way weaker than is typical in the current metagame. also 2gate zealot without proxy is trivially easy to hold even without gas (ling speed shouldn't finish before the initial zealots hit even if the zerg goes 14/14) because all you have do do is delay with lings/queen until a spine is up yes it puts the zerg behind but it's a huge investment from protoss and is insanely difficult to transition out of so if the zerg holds you're pretty fucked. TLDR 2gate is bad, if it was viable people would do it, but they don't, and it'll only get worse post-buff if the queen change goes through. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:15 Liquid`Jinro wrote: .... So, bye reapers, bye hellions, bye marines outranging queens..... Hm. It completely takes the micro of kiting queens out of the game. It wasn't even that easy to do if the queens were on creep. I dont like how they are throwing random changes in there. Zergs might be having a problem now, but I think everyone can agree that they werent dying for queens with longer range. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:37 gogatorsfoster wrote: It completely takes the micro of kiting queens out of the game. It wasn't even that easy to do if the queens were on creep. I dont like how they are throwing random changes in there. Zergs might be having a problem now, but I think everyone can agree that they werent dying for queens with longer range. But silver Zergs are dying to reactor hellion because they can't get their queens in position and macro at the same time! | ||
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latan
740 Posts
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:40 latan wrote: i don't see how a 2 gate opening forces 20-26 lings. unless you're planning to suicide a lot of zealots and fall even more behind. Well, if you're close positions on Shattered, it does... | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. Wait what?? 2 gate is shitty opening if you planned to do it that way. The best way zerg needed to do is place 1 or 2 spine and a some lings and those zealot pressure will be negated. Toss will then be behind =.= cuz you invested those money in zealots tech will be delayed and i dun see anyone building nonstop queen to stop 2 gate pressure. All you need is just spines.LOL No one does 2 gate like that.Its gimmicky play and only use seldomly to catch your opponent offguard might else well do a 2 proxy gate to surprise your opponent. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
On May 05 2012 11:14 Warpath wrote: hahaha that settles that, overlord change = fine Terrans float their building for scouting all the time, I believe its called a factory not a barracks. Floating factory most common scouting tool in TVP... The fact that terrans build a 150/100 paperweight building that can potentially change games "look at mkp factory field game" its outstanding totally imba huh? /sarcasm Its ridiculously silly to compare an overlord; a unit that is made no matter what outcome by the zerg, to a production facility that may or may not have use. The only time I can see a terran using a barracks to scout as an opener is if they proxy it and go mech. But that pretty much a middle finger to their opponent telling them they are going mech either way, in which they can just be greedy and out expand the meching player. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:41 corpuscle wrote: Well, if you're close positions on Shattered, it does... Is Shattered in the ladder pool or in tournament map pool? As far as i know, they are extinct. You only play them in customs. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:43 FakeDeath wrote: Is Shattered in the ladder pool or in tournament map pool? As far as i know, they are extinct. You only play them in customs. It's called sarcasm, you should look it up. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 05 2012 14:36 corpuscle wrote: except if you build 2 gateways and zealots behind it you're delaying your expansion by for-fucking-ever so it's not merely a "pressure" it's something that absolutely has to do damage because you WG is significantly delayed and your probe count is way weaker than is typical in the current metagame. also 2gate zealot without proxy is trivially easy to hold even without gas (ling speed shouldn't finish before the initial zealots hit even if the zerg goes 14/14) because all you have do do is delay with lings/queen until a spine is up yes it puts the zerg behind but it's a huge investment from protoss and is insanely difficult to transition out of so if the zerg holds you're pretty fucked. TLDR 2gate is bad, if it was viable people would do it, but they don't, and it'll only get worse post-buff if the queen change goes through. Ok, whatever bro, despite you being significantly ahead on the probe count compared to his drones, and while you deny your second base a little bit, his third base is insanely delayed. It's most definitely a pressure build, you don't need to do a ton of damage, and it doesn't matter that you don't have warpgate because, oh look, he doesn't have a third you need to deny. I've beaten tons of pros and gone super lategame while losing to some others with it. Also beaten countless semipros, and considering I'm no pro myself, it's been working fine for me, as well as quite a bit of other people. I know one of the people rank 20 GM uses it in his builds PvZ regularly, and I recently beat the rank 1 GM (well by recent, last season) using it. Of course, it's NA server, but whatevs. On May 05 2012 14:42 FakeDeath wrote: Wait what?? 2 gate is shitty opening if you planned to do it that way. The best way zerg needed to do is place 1 or 2 spine and a some lings and those zealot pressure will be negated. Toss will then be behind =.= cuz you invested those money in zealots tech will be delayed and i dun see anyone building nonstop queen to stop 2 gate pressure. All you need is just spines.LOL No one does 2 gate like that.Its gimmicky play and only use seldomly to catch your opponent offguard might else well do a 2 proxy gate to surprise your opponent. Try to get spines up. It's not much of a different scenario than 2rax was. Give me a break. Who are you on ladder? Let's try it out. I have two accounts, that are generally rank one or two masters if I use my bonus pool. http://i50.tinypic.com/fxx8qq.png I seem to be doing quite well PvZ. Note the average game length (which is actual time, not Blizzard time) is right around a standard macro game. | ||
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