On May 05 2012 11:04 hli wrote: The overlord speed increase may be imba based on map... Therefore I think they should approach it differently. For example... Metalopolis close spawns, the Overlord can get a whole scout of and back away safely and be completely sure of gas/gasless builds. Korhal and Cloud, the overlord is guaranteed to safely arrive at the high ground of opponents natural.
okay it's time to post this again..while talking about imba scouting.
hahaha that settles that, overlord change = fine
Because Terran was clearly made to spend 150 minerals and scv building time to make a building for scouting.
Different races were made differently for a reason. Do you expect Terrans can actually afford to do that kind of thing? It would put them way behind in every single opener. No.
Dude you have something called a SCAN... it' basically the only unstoppable form of scouting, let the Zerg' have something... they are struggling and are a tough race to play...
It's also immobile and the most expensive form of scouting.
Its still pretty good though. You can scan Z main and can see lair or hive timing and even see his tech easily . You can't deny terran from scanning.
You could always spend like 150 mins/150 gas to make a fake building though, because scans don't see inside eggs.
Scans really aren't that useful scouting TvZ unless you're checking spire/infestation pit timings, and even then zergs can just hide the buildings on creep somewhere..
then I guess you see the problem right now. On prolevel, a lot of times zergs won't get an overlord in position to begin with, because even the first OL can be intercepted before reaching highground. And then you can go in one time from the most expected angle with a very slow unit against marine dps. 20%more speed won't do anything big, but you might get an additional OL in soome position and if you sacrifice the OL you may see a tiny little bit more and maybe see an extra hellion or a marauder or a tank. you can still hide everything, but the probability for a good scout is slightly increased.
0.9375 for queens, yes, but regardless, terran buildings will be more powerful and faster scouts than overlords, so there shouldn't be any complaints about the speed change. ^_^" The queen range change helps to make sure hellions and reapers cannot kite them, whereas marines will still do well against queens at the same range and I'm pretty sure this is how Blizzard wanted it.
EDIT For Big J, it's a 25% speed boost, just to be clear, although it doesn't improve maximum speed (with Pneumatised Carapace), which is fine, although it would be nice for fast ovies to be slightly faster than unstimmed marines, in my opinion.
On May 05 2012 16:48 Hall0wed wrote: Sorry if this has already been gone over but does the overlord speed change mean that queens can no longer chase down overlords off creep?
Queens speed offcreep is 0,94 or something. Still faster than overlord even with the change. You definitely feel it though as your queen is more far from the creep. I'm not sure to understand the queen's change either... I think that speed ovi is enough to prevent any kind of 1 base TvZ allin.
Well I know the queen is still faster but when chasing down the overlord the queen will have a different speed value due to it attacking also. I just don't know what the relative speed value of the queen is when it is off creep and attacking air while moving.
Blizzard should not buff the queen. It decreases the number of opening T could make, the gameplay would take a hit from it. And also, I do not want players to switch to zerg, there are enough of them and everyone is tired of zvz... If anything nerf zerg, zvp is kind of easy (at least in diamond, from what i can tell).
On May 05 2012 16:48 Hall0wed wrote: Sorry if this has already been gone over but does the overlord speed change mean that queens can no longer chase down overlords off creep?
Queens speed offcreep is 0,94 or something. Still faster than overlord even with the change. You definitely feel it though as your queen is more far from the creep. I'm not sure to understand the queen's change either... I think that speed ovi is enough to prevent any kind of 1 base TvZ allin.
Well I know the queen is still faster but when chasing down the overlord the queen will have a different speed value due to it attacking also. I just don't know what the relative speed value of the queen is when it is off creep and attacking air while moving.
An attacking queen moves at almost exactly the same speed as the new overlord. You'll still kill it if there's open ground. But if you stutter-step the queen, the overlord still has zero chance.
On May 05 2012 17:25 Saumure wrote: Blizzard should not buff the queen. It decreases the number of opening T could make, the gameplay would take a hit from it. And also, I do not want players to switch to zerg, there are enough of them and everyone is tired of zvz... If anything nerf zerg, zvp is kind of easy (at least in diamond, from what i can tell).
Yeah, if Zergs appear to be struggling at a pro-level and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
On May 05 2012 17:19 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: 0.9375 for queens, yes, but regardless, terran buildings will be more powerful and faster scouts than overlords, so there shouldn't be any complaints about the speed change. ^_^" The queen range change helps to make sure hellions and reapers cannot kite them, whereas marines will still do well against queens at the same range and I'm pretty sure this is how Blizzard wanted it.
EDIT For Big J, it's a 25% speed boost, just to be clear, although it doesn't improve maximum speed (with Pneumatised Carapace), which is fine, although it would be nice for fast ovies to be slightly faster than unstimmed marines, in my opinion.
ah, ty for the clarification, didnt calculate it through, just heard someone say it was 20%.
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
On May 05 2012 21:01 Jumonji wrote: Why terran are complaining about "harassing" zerg? Be serious guys all my zvt are about terran fast expand or terran double expand.
Two answers to zerg power drone:
- You harass the zerg and then you keep his drone count low with some pressure. - You double expand or fast expand to make a lot of scv.
But stop whining about the fact zerg power drone when the only pressure is about 4 hellion at 6:30.
Sorry, sir, how do I pressure the zerg with something more than 4 hellions? Please, elaborate.
I think you have no idea what you are talking about.
On May 05 2012 21:01 Jumonji wrote: Why terran are complaining about "harassing" zerg? Be serious guys all my zvt are about terran fast expand or terran double expand.
Two answers to zerg power drone:
- You harass the zerg and then you keep his drone count low with some pressure. - You double expand or fast expand to make a lot of scv.
But stop whining about the fact zerg power drone when the only pressure is about 4 hellion at 6:30.
Sorry, sir, how do I pressure the zerg with something more than 4 hellions? Please, elaborate.
I think you have no idea what you are talking about.
Keep playing old school, pressure without being super greedy.
It's like the fact that terran weren't making planetary fortress anymore to have more OC and were complaining "zerg imba i cant expand": of course you can't you don't play safe and i can kill 10 + scv with 6 pop zergling.
Same for marauder: powerful unit , tank really well bane and zergling with medivac, but for some unknow cause, terran stoped playing with them and for about one year played with only marine tank (paired with a lot of complain about the "imbaness" of zerg)
I'm just saying to be more agressive, Sc2 is a brain game, do the opposite of metagame and your opponent will be in a high panic state. Same for me as a zerg, i'm doing stupid gas build and toss just don't know anymore how to play, make 2 more cannon , stupid push with a few unit even if he know i have speedling.
Sometimes even if you don't see the direct benefit of an unit ( like rosting drone , or whatever else) doesn't mean it is not effective. ( same as the 4 hellion at 5:40)
I'm not actually sure why people think a 5 range queen is the end of hellion harass. Are hellions not still twice as fast, even on creep, as queens? Does zerg getting an extra whack or two at them somehow mean that Terrans will just say "Well, that's it guys, I lost 16 more HP than I used to, time to go home."
Queens vs hellions is still a micro war. It's just slightly easier for queens now.
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
Do the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed.
Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making.
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
Do the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed.
Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making.
So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players?
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
Do the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed.
Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making.
So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players?
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of balance issues.
What we can infer from the lack of terran in higher leagues is that the game is not properly balanced and heavily favors zerg and toss.
As for balance issues, I see as a balance issue the insane amount of scouting zerg gets from overlords and creep tumors, as well as toss from observers. You will say 'use scans' but I will reply that I can't use scans since both zerg and toss have more workers than me, so every scan I use is actually taking away from my already worse econ. What is more, zerg and toss have persistent ways of scouting, I mean, the vision stays there, but a scan doesn't.
Also, the fact that zerg and toss don't require micro on their armies is disturbing, but that would be too much to want from them.
So I am proposing zerg and toss get nerfed based on total domination they have in ladder (30% more is something) and their domination in gsl - Last gsl was ZvP. So, yeah.
queen change sounds good. Makes pushing out and defending against hellions a whole lot better and improves them slightly against other pushes. It hardly matters against stuff like bunker rushes, 7 gates etc so shouldn't be too troublesome.
I am slightly worried the queen range could be abused for some offensive pushes though. Queen at range 5 means they can kill walloffs from protoss without the cannons being able to hit them. For example against FFE into stargate I can see nydus with queen + lings be really strong now. Get a mass of 6 or so queens, nydus just outside of the FFE and stream lings through it nonstop. Queens decimate air, can pick off the wall without being hit (they do same DPS as a roach, not much but enough to kill wall) and are just good in combat with transfuse.
For combat queens dominate hydra's now. Same range, much better combat stats (more then half hydra dps but more then double hitpoints and no bonusses agians them) plus good abilities in transfuse. Just proxy hatch into queens or slow overlord queen drops might actually be doing something now because the queen on creep is a damn efficient unit now.
I'll think they'll settle on 4 range in the end anyway. They have to completely revamp the reaper by now though that unit is becoming more terrible every patch there is, the rise of the forge FE in PvT is basically a result of it being safe that noone will open reaper as well.
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s
Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less.
Do the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed.
Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making.
So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players?
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of balance issues.
What we can infer from the lack of terran in higher leagues is that the game is not properly balanced and heavily favors zerg and toss.
As for balance issues, I see as a balance issue the insane amount of scouting zerg gets from overlords and creep tumors, as well as toss from observers. You will say 'use scans' but I will reply that I can't use scans since both zerg and toss have more workers than me, so every scan I use is actually taking away from my already worse econ. What is more, zerg and toss have persistent ways of scouting, I mean, the vision stays there, but a scan doesn't.
Also, the fact that zerg and toss don't require micro on their armies is disturbing, but that would be too much to want from them.
So I am proposing zerg and toss get nerfed based on total domination they have in ladder (30% more is something) and their domination in gsl - Last gsl was ZvP. So, yeah.
Domination in GSL?LOL Please dun mess around. Doesn't mean zerg won one GSL season 1 means zerg is overpowered. Zerg is a dying race in the GSL currently.
This issue with zerg scouting has been for almost one year and they have also started patching it.
EPT
