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On May 05 2012 21:56 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:43 loltb wrote:On May 05 2012 21:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 21:33 b0rt_ wrote:On May 05 2012 21:10 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 20:28 ThomasHobbes wrote:
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less. haha what am I reading http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allDo the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed. Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making. So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players? Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of balance issues. What we can infer from the lack of terran in higher leagues is that the game is not properly balanced and heavily favors zerg and toss. As for balance issues, I see as a balance issue the insane amount of scouting zerg gets from overlords and creep tumors, as well as toss from observers. You will say 'use scans' but I will reply that I can't use scans since both zerg and toss have more workers than me, so every scan I use is actually taking away from my already worse econ. What is more, zerg and toss have persistent ways of scouting, I mean, the vision stays there, but a scan doesn't. Also, the fact that zerg and toss don't require micro on their armies is disturbing, but that would be too much to want from them. So I am proposing zerg and toss get nerfed based on total domination they have in ladder (30% more is something) and their domination in gsl - Last gsl was ZvP. So, yeah.
What we can infer from the lack of terran in every league except for bronze is that there are simply less terran players, not that there's some sort of major balance issue keeping them from advancing.
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
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On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
What we can infer from the lack of terran in every league except for bronze is that there are simply less terran players, not that there's some sort of major balance issue keeping them from advancing.
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
What I infer from the lack of zerg in gsl is that there are simply less good zerg players in Korea, not that the race needs a buff. Zerg does get scouting from overlords spreading creep on your expansion place, creep tumors, burrowed lings etc. Terran has nothing like this.
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On May 05 2012 21:56 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:43 loltb wrote:On May 05 2012 21:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 21:33 b0rt_ wrote:On May 05 2012 21:10 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 20:28 ThomasHobbes wrote:
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less. haha what am I reading http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allDo the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed. Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making. So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players? Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of balance issues. What we can infer from the lack of terran in higher leagues is that the game is not properly balanced and heavily favors zerg and toss. As for balance issues, I see as a balance issue the insane amount of scouting zerg gets from overlords and creep tumors, as well as toss from observers. You will say 'use scans' but I will reply that I can't use scans since both zerg and toss have more workers than me, so every scan I use is actually taking away from my already worse econ. What is more, zerg and toss have persistent ways of scouting, I mean, the vision stays there, but a scan doesn't. Also, the fact that zerg and toss don't require micro on their armies is disturbing, but that would be too much to want from them. So I am proposing zerg and toss get nerfed based on total domination they have in ladder (30% more is something) and their domination in gsl - Last gsl was ZvP. So, yeah.
Zerg and protoss domination in GSL? Are you serious? Do you know how many zerg there were there in this season's ro8? And apart from GSL terran have won almost every single international tournament in the last few months (previous 2 MLGS, IPL4, Dreamhack, Asus etc.). The only tournament I can think of that wasn't won by a terran was the last MLG by DRG and that was an extremely close final. Do you honestly not realize how ridiculous your whining sounds?
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On May 05 2012 22:31 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
What we can infer from the lack of terran in every league except for bronze is that there are simply less terran players, not that there's some sort of major balance issue keeping them from advancing.
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
What I infer from the lack of zerg in gsl is that there are simply less good zerg players in Korea, not that the race needs a buff. Zerg does get scouting from overlords spreading creep on your expansion place, creep tumors, burrowed lings etc. Terran has nothing like this.
Overlords, creep, and burrow do nothing for early game scouting. Please stop trying to argue a point you know nothing about.
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Overlords are useful? Gastimings at protos natural and shizzle like that.
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Nice troll, a bit too obvious tho sieksdekciw.
Changes are cool in my opinion, 25+ energy on queen was obviously a bit too much, but that range will make dealing with hellions stoping creep spread/dives a bit easier without rendering said hellions obsolete.
Overlords change is also a okish one, some maps you just cant get a good read on gases and only way to try to get estimate read what opponent is doing is dive in with overlord and pray you get enough info before it dies so again, slight change that seems quite logical but without drasticly changing the matchups.
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On May 05 2012 22:38 loltb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 22:31 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
What we can infer from the lack of terran in every league except for bronze is that there are simply less terran players, not that there's some sort of major balance issue keeping them from advancing.
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
What I infer from the lack of zerg in gsl is that there are simply less good zerg players in Korea, not that the race needs a buff. Zerg does get scouting from overlords spreading creep on your expansion place, creep tumors, burrowed lings etc. Terran has nothing like this. Overlords, creep, and burrow do nothing for early game scouting. Please stop trying to argue a point you know nothing about.
I'm not talking about early game scouting at all. Please, stop trying to tell me what to do. Zergs feel the little itty bitty moderators of SC. Don't talk about this, don't talk about that...
Zerg has superior scouting to any other race. That's it. Prove me wrong. See a pro game, see the vision of the players. Who has more vision? The zerg. Point proven, your argument is invalid (you don't have an argument).
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On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
Don't lie. On most maps, Overlords can fly uncontested towards spots that look directly into the natural or into the main. So, by early game, you can see if there is an expand or not, and you can see gas; later, you can sacrifice that Overlord, or wait Lair, morph it into an Overseer, and scout everything your opponent is doing. Besides, in ZvZ, there are Overlords on the map looking for enemy units. So don't tell us Zergs don't scout with Overlords, this is blatantly wrong.
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On May 05 2012 22:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race. Don't lie. On most maps, Overlords can fly uncontested towards spots that look directly into the natural or into the main. So, by early game, you can see if there is an expand or not, and you can see gas; later, you can sacrifice that Overlord, or wait Lair, morph it into an Overseer, and scout everything your opponent is doing. Besides, in ZvZ, there are Overlords on the map looking for enemy units. So don't tell us Zergs don't scout with Overlords, this is blatantly wrong.
so if you could do that already...what is your problem with faster ovis?
btw: dont feed the trolls.
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On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:56 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 21:43 loltb wrote:On May 05 2012 21:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 21:33 b0rt_ wrote:On May 05 2012 21:10 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 05 2012 20:28 ThomasHobbes wrote:
and aren't overpowered in ladder, it sure makes sense to nerf Zerg.
/s Zerg is overpowered in ladder, it is 25% more than terrans in most leagues. As for tournaments, GSL winner was zerg last season as far as I remember, and he played against a toss. So maybe you are wrong. It does make sense to nerf zerg. Imo queen should have less movement speed on creep and 1 range on ground less. haha what am I reading http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allDo the math. In each league but bronze, terran is less than 30% of the total population, zerg is more than 33%. If we look at platinum, zerg is 35% of the whole platinum population, while terran is 25%. If you calculate it, that would mean platinum has roughly 30% less terrans than zergs. This percentage varies in each league, but it is a pure fact that terrans are far less in any league but bronze than toss or zerg. Hence, Zerg has overpopulated the ladder (so has toss) and hence zerg needs their units to be nerfed, hence the nerf I proposed. Being zerg, you probably are not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, but even you must understand the point I am making. So you think Zerg should be nerfed not due to any sort of balance issue, but because there are more Zerg players than Terran players? Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of balance issues. What we can infer from the lack of terran in higher leagues is that the game is not properly balanced and heavily favors zerg and toss. As for balance issues, I see as a balance issue the insane amount of scouting zerg gets from overlords and creep tumors, as well as toss from observers. You will say 'use scans' but I will reply that I can't use scans since both zerg and toss have more workers than me, so every scan I use is actually taking away from my already worse econ. What is more, zerg and toss have persistent ways of scouting, I mean, the vision stays there, but a scan doesn't. Also, the fact that zerg and toss don't require micro on their armies is disturbing, but that would be too much to want from them. So I am proposing zerg and toss get nerfed based on total domination they have in ladder (30% more is something) and their domination in gsl - Last gsl was ZvP. So, yeah. Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
lol
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On May 05 2012 22:47 sieksdekciw wrote:
Zerg has superior scouting to any other race. That's it. Prove me wrong. See a pro game, see the vision of the players. Who has more vision? The zerg. Point proven, your argument is invalid (you don't have an argument).
Haha! Observer says "Hi"...and they just got buffed...
On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
What other scouting methods do you know of? Suicide lings?
Please tell us Zerg players how we are missing out of scouting...
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Why are we buffing the queen exactly (first the 50 energy and now it has been changed to increased range)? Blizzard implies it is to increase zerg's defensive capabilities against early attacks but from my experience the problem with early attacks is the lack of knowledge and not an insufficient amount of tools to deal with it. So this guy made proxy rax (or not even necessarily proxy), is he going to transition into an expansion or will there be 20 more marines at my doorstep?
I like the overlord speed buff, because it allows you to reach your destination (high ground, dead air space, ...,) faster and thus you are less likely to be intercepted by a marine. A great example of this would be Shakuras Plateau, where if you spawn cross positions against a Terran, he can send a marine to kill off your overlord (assuming you sent your starting overlord to the conventional location). This forces you to take an alternative path which makes your overlord arrive so late that the information you are supposed to get from it becomes irrelevant.
Something I suggested ages ago was to add an ability to the overlord, for the cost of a bit of gas, which was called 'overdrive'. The Overlord would inflate himself which greatly increased his speed, but making him explode [x] seconds after using the ability. Zerg players would often sac an overlord in for scouting but not always get the needed information, with this ability you have a very large chance of getting the required information at the cost of an Overlord. The gas cost is just there so you cannot use the ability without having mined gas, which could possibly be abused at the early stages of the game.
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On May 05 2012 22:55 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 22:47 sieksdekciw wrote:
Zerg has superior scouting to any other race. That's it. Prove me wrong. See a pro game, see the vision of the players. Who has more vision? The zerg. Point proven, your argument is invalid (you don't have an argument). Haha! Observer says "Hi"...and they just got buffed... Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 22:20 loltb wrote:
Please don't say that zerg gets scouting from Overlords, it shows off how little you actually know of the race.
What other scouting methods do you know of? Suicide lings? Please tell us Zerg players how we are missing out of scouting...
Early game? An even mix of suicide lings, game sense, and psychic powers. I find overlords unreliable for early game scouting outside of expansion and gas timings on certain maps. They definitely become relevant later when knowing army positions exactly becomes as, if not more, important than direct in-base vision.
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Any zerg players advocating these changes are fucking idiots who clearly dont know how to play, none of these "pressures" or "timing attacks" have been issues for YEARS! YEARS not months, YEARS! If you die to hellions you do not need a buff, you need to learn to fucking play.
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I don't get the how zerg scouting is inferior to protoss' :
vs T, our probe will get shot down as fast as drone, we are as blind as u are until we get observers, which forces us to go robo and lock stargate/twilight tech for a bit of time just in case of banshees, which are quite popular with 1-1-1 builds. Besides - one scan and bb 75 gas. For Z, u just need lair, which unlocks any tech u want.
vs P, u are already able to sit for incredibly long in our base with drone alone, not to mention ovie, especially on some maps with "sweet spots". If we get stalkers fast and sit on one base(which u can easily find out by zerglings poke), then it would be quite reasonable to prepare some defense instead of droning. On P side, on the other hand, its damn hard to see anything until obs is out, better Z's will find the probe even if u hide it well. You will see all of our pushes thx to creep spread, while our single moment of deconcetration can cost us GG by suprise baneling bust.
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I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
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On May 05 2012 22:42 Narw wrote:
Nice troll, a bit too obvious tho sieksdekciw.
Changes are cool in my opinion, 25+ energy on queen was obviously a bit too much, but that range will make dealing with hellions stoping creep spread/dives a bit easier without rendering said hellions obsolete.
Overlords change is also a okish one, some maps you just cant get a good read on gases and only way to try to get estimate read what opponent is doing is dive in with overlord and pray you get enough info before it dies so again, slight change that seems quite logical but without drasticly changing the matchups.
Other races do not need early scouting as badly as zerg does considering our early game defenses are nowhere near as strong as either protoss or terran.
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On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
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On May 05 2012 22:59 the p00n wrote:
Why are we buffing the queen exactly (first the 50 energy and now it has been changed to increased range)? Blizzard implies it is to increase zerg's defensive capabilities against early attacks but from my experience the problem with early attacks is the lack of knowledge and not an insufficient amount of tools to deal with it. So this guy made proxy rax (or not even necessarily proxy), is he going to transition into an expansion or will there be 20 more marines at my doorstep?
Look at it like a canon. Protoss are also nearly blind against Zerg early on, but they have one "all in one" solution, which they can invest into (=bad if no aggression comes, good if aggression comes).
Similarly bunker+marines or even hellions work like that.
The tools zerg has right now, are mostly specific, reactionary solutions, which all cannot be built blindly, because all of them suck against certain aggression (and all of them suck when no aggression comes).
I believe, the idea is that by buffing the queen, blizzard wants to buff something that is useful in a huge variety of circumstances and that you would get anyway in a certain amount early on. (like a bunker or a canon or marines or sentries)
I'm not quite sure if the change is the right one - or needed - yet I do like the idea that stands behind it. One of the biggest problems in zerg gameplay early on is that nearly everything is either commited mass unit (allin) aggression, or inferior to mass drone "coinflipping". Making Zergs invest in something that can be used in various ways/situations sounds like a good middle way to make them more safe for more money.
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On May 05 2012 21:01 Jumonji wrote:
Why terran are complaining about "harassing" zerg? Be serious guys all my zvt are about terran fast expand or terran double expand.
Two answers to zerg power drone:
- You harass the zerg and then you keep his drone count low with some pressure.
- You double expand or fast expand to make a lot of scv.
But stop whining about the fact zerg power drone when the only pressure is about 4 hellion at 6:30.
Probably the stupidest post I have ever read. Zerg has larva, Terran does not, Zerg can produce workers 3 times faster than Terran... are we done here?
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EPT
