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On May 05 2012 14:45 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:43 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2012 14:41 corpuscle wrote:On May 05 2012 14:40 latan wrote:
i don't see how a 2 gate opening forces 20-26 lings. unless you're planning to suicide a lot of zealots and fall even more behind. Well, if you're close positions on Shattered, it does... Is Shattered in the ladder pool or in tournament map pool? As far as i know, they are extinct. You only play them in customs. It's called sarcasm, you should look it up.
Sorry if i did not get your sarcasm.
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On May 05 2012 14:15 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
.... So, bye reapers, bye hellions, bye marines outranging queens..... Hm.
It's ok though marines beat queens pretty handily so that's no concern  , hellions will still be fine just you'll get hit by them when killing creep tumors, not like they do that much damage. Just no more kiting which does kill any reaper strategy dead now.
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I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place.
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On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place.
What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground.
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Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard is playing the same game I am.
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On May 05 2012 14:47 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:36 corpuscle wrote:On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:13 Let it Raine wrote:On May 05 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
Queen is utterly stupid. A lot of people are trying out builds like 2gate again (non allin) and this would KILL 2gate. Not to mention it would kill 2rax as well, as well as reaper openings, and be notably better vs hellions. Absolutely fucking ridiculous again... TERRIBLE change. I'd rather see the creep change. How can people like this? Because it doesn't affect their single build they do, while completely shitting on every other nonstandard build out there? elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. except if you build 2 gateways and zealots behind it you're delaying your expansion by for-fucking-ever so it's not merely a "pressure" it's something that absolutely has to do damage because you WG is significantly delayed and your probe count is way weaker than is typical in the current metagame. also 2gate zealot without proxy is trivially easy to hold even without gas (ling speed shouldn't finish before the initial zealots hit even if the zerg goes 14/14) because all you have do do is delay with lings/queen until a spine is up yes it puts the zerg behind but it's a huge investment from protoss and is insanely difficult to transition out of so if the zerg holds you're pretty fucked. TLDR 2gate is bad, if it was viable people would do it, but they don't, and it'll only get worse post-buff if the queen change goes through. Ok, whatever bro, despite you being significantly ahead on the probe count compared to his drones, and while you deny your second base a little bit, his third base is insanely delayed. It's most definitely a pressure build, you don't need to do a ton of damage, and it doesn't matter that you don't have warpgate because, oh look, he doesn't have a third you need to deny. I've beaten tons of pros and gone super lategame while losing to some others with it. Also beaten countless semipros, and considering I'm no pro myself, it's been working fine for me, as well as quite a bit of other people. I know one of the people rank 20 GM uses it in his builds PvZ regularly, and I recently beat the rank 1 GM (well by recent, last season) using it. Of course, it's NA server, but whatevs. Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:42 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:13 Let it Raine wrote:On May 05 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
Queen is utterly stupid. A lot of people are trying out builds like 2gate again (non allin) and this would KILL 2gate. Not to mention it would kill 2rax as well, as well as reaper openings, and be notably better vs hellions. Absolutely fucking ridiculous again... TERRIBLE change. I'd rather see the creep change. How can people like this? Because it doesn't affect their single build they do, while completely shitting on every other nonstandard build out there? elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. Wait what?? 2 gate is shitty opening if you planned to do it that way. The best way zerg needed to do is place 1 or 2 spine and a some lings and those zealot pressure will be negated. Toss will then be behind =.= cuz you invested those money in zealots tech will be delayed and i dun see anyone building nonstop queen to stop 2 gate pressure. All you need is just spines.LOL No one does 2 gate like that.Its gimmicky play and only use seldomly to catch your opponent offguard might else well do a 2 proxy gate to surprise your opponent. Try to get spines up. It's not much of a different scenario than 2rax was. Give me a break. Who are you on ladder? Let's try it out. I have two accounts, that are generally rank one or two masters if I use my bonus pool. http://i50.tinypic.com/fxx8qq.pngI seem to be doing quite well PvZ. Note the average game length (which is actual time, not Blizzard time) is right around a standard macro game.
If you dun mind, can you show me a replay where your 2 gate pressure works against top semi-pro or pros you called it?
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On May 05 2012 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place. What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground.
Its needed to combat marine all ins in the early game. I think something needs to be done, but maybe the queen isnt the best option. I would have like to see the build time decreased on spine crawlers myself.
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On May 05 2012 14:57 imanoobcs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place. What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground. Its needed to combat marine all ins in the early game. I think something needs to be done, but maybe the queen isnt the best option. I would have like to see the build time decreased on spine crawlers myself.
It's needed to combat what... a build that no pro player has died to in like a year? Yes, 11/11 is still viable, but even then, it's pretty fucking bad now, you hardly ever see it.
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On May 05 2012 14:55 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:36 corpuscle wrote:On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:13 Let it Raine wrote:On May 05 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
Queen is utterly stupid. A lot of people are trying out builds like 2gate again (non allin) and this would KILL 2gate. Not to mention it would kill 2rax as well, as well as reaper openings, and be notably better vs hellions. Absolutely fucking ridiculous again... TERRIBLE change. I'd rather see the creep change. How can people like this? Because it doesn't affect their single build they do, while completely shitting on every other nonstandard build out there? elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. except if you build 2 gateways and zealots behind it you're delaying your expansion by for-fucking-ever so it's not merely a "pressure" it's something that absolutely has to do damage because you WG is significantly delayed and your probe count is way weaker than is typical in the current metagame. also 2gate zealot without proxy is trivially easy to hold even without gas (ling speed shouldn't finish before the initial zealots hit even if the zerg goes 14/14) because all you have do do is delay with lings/queen until a spine is up yes it puts the zerg behind but it's a huge investment from protoss and is insanely difficult to transition out of so if the zerg holds you're pretty fucked. TLDR 2gate is bad, if it was viable people would do it, but they don't, and it'll only get worse post-buff if the queen change goes through. Ok, whatever bro, despite you being significantly ahead on the probe count compared to his drones, and while you deny your second base a little bit, his third base is insanely delayed. It's most definitely a pressure build, you don't need to do a ton of damage, and it doesn't matter that you don't have warpgate because, oh look, he doesn't have a third you need to deny. I've beaten tons of pros and gone super lategame while losing to some others with it. Also beaten countless semipros, and considering I'm no pro myself, it's been working fine for me, as well as quite a bit of other people. I know one of the people rank 20 GM uses it in his builds PvZ regularly, and I recently beat the rank 1 GM (well by recent, last season) using it. Of course, it's NA server, but whatevs. On May 05 2012 14:42 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2012 14:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:13 Let it Raine wrote:On May 05 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
Queen is utterly stupid. A lot of people are trying out builds like 2gate again (non allin) and this would KILL 2gate. Not to mention it would kill 2rax as well, as well as reaper openings, and be notably better vs hellions. Absolutely fucking ridiculous again... TERRIBLE change. I'd rather see the creep change. How can people like this? Because it doesn't affect their single build they do, while completely shitting on every other nonstandard build out there? elaborate on this two gate that's not all in and somehow loses to 5 range queens Simply 2gate as an opening. There isn't much more to it. 2gate zealots, gateways are at your natural, expand behind it. Zerg has to cut drones around 17 and make around 20-26 lings before they can redrone. It's also much safer vs a roach/ling allin. It's weak vs a 14/14 opening but I haven't seen one of those in ages. One of the best ways to counter 2gate as it is is to build nonstop queens and have them try to tank damage, or use their range to force zealots to retreat or force an engagement. Wait what?? 2 gate is shitty opening if you planned to do it that way. The best way zerg needed to do is place 1 or 2 spine and a some lings and those zealot pressure will be negated. Toss will then be behind =.= cuz you invested those money in zealots tech will be delayed and i dun see anyone building nonstop queen to stop 2 gate pressure. All you need is just spines.LOL No one does 2 gate like that.Its gimmicky play and only use seldomly to catch your opponent offguard might else well do a 2 proxy gate to surprise your opponent. Try to get spines up. It's not much of a different scenario than 2rax was. Give me a break. Who are you on ladder? Let's try it out. I have two accounts, that are generally rank one or two masters if I use my bonus pool. http://i50.tinypic.com/fxx8qq.pngI seem to be doing quite well PvZ. Note the average game length (which is actual time, not Blizzard time) is right around a standard macro game. If you dun mind, can you show me a replay where your 2 gate pressure works against top semi-pro or pros you called it?
I don't save my replays far enough back. The only one I have somewhere is me losing to IdrA with it, but I messed it up as I overcommitted and lost my Zealots. It's similar to 2rax where you need to force lings but keep your rines alive. I would say I lost to IdrA moreso because he outplayed me though than the strategy itself. I'm not saying it's a better build than forge FE, just different. Like 2rax is a different opener than reactor hellions.
On May 05 2012 14:57 imanoobcs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place. What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground. Its needed to combat marine all ins in the early game. I think something needs to be done, but maybe the queen isnt the best option. I would have like to see the build time decreased on spine crawlers myself.
This wouldn't be what saves you from a marine allin if you're not prepared.
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So I tested against 5 Range Queen as Terran today.
Hellion opening is the most damaged build by this update. You can still deny creep but after they get 4 queens you take too much damage it's not even worth it. It's impossible to deny 3rd unless there's rock. Map control is nice but it's all over when they got speed with good creep spread.
Reaper opening build is actually not bad since I always build Bunker with that build
Marine pressure is nearly unchanged. Marines might take more damage but not worth considering.
I don't think it's bad update but it's sure bad day for Hellion openers. I think a Range 4.5 Queen or buff Hellion Range up to 5.5 (without the extra 0.15 range splash) will please both side
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In my opinion Queen range up is a very bad idea.
With nerf of bunkers, reapers, stim packs, blue flamme helions and in same time buff of sunkens, overcyr cheaper, you nerf indirectly again terran ( like banshees for example )
With buffing queen's range you let the helions completely useless.
do you think it is normal zerg has twice more drones than terran at 8 minutes ???
Cause you nerf all terran early harass tecs.
And now the helions cannot hit and run good against queens.
Sunken exist so zerg have to make sunken and a little bit less macro...
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On May 05 2012 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place. What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground.
Talk about exaggeration much....
Reaper is definitely worse, but 2rax is completely fine, you're putting up bunkers before the queens come out anyway. The difference is pretty minimal.
I feel like people just find a way to complain.
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As a zerg, I feel that giving some energy more for queens (like 35) is better than extending their range, which sounds a bit too game breaking for z v t. But does zerg really suffer from early all ins that much? I never felt like that personnally...
and what about reducing the creep tumor "planting" times? instead of having an animation that lasts for about a couple of seconds, make it go much faster so that it's not as easy to deny...
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On May 05 2012 13:04 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
5 range Melee for Queens means that zealots will never kill a queen again. oh well interesting change either way.
A zealot should never kill a queen because queens have the same move speed on creep as zealots. They should be able to kite zealots until reinforcements arrive. Changing range from 3-5 is too big imo, terran early aggression will be nerfed too much. If they intended for the range increase to counter hellions denying creep spread, a more intermediate increase to range 4 should allow queens to hit hellions back whenever hellions pokes at queens.
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I think they ought to consider a sight range upgrade for the overlord instead of a queen buff. The problem as I see it is that zerg has a hard time dealing with early game all-ins because they have a hard time scouting them, not because they don't have the tools to deal with them. A sight range upgrade together with the slight speed improvement will vastly increase early game scouting capabilities.
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On May 05 2012 14:57 imanoobcs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2012 14:50 Fencer710 wrote:
I think Blizzard wants Terran players to never go for reactor hellion by implementing this. Queens will have the same range as Hellions if this goes through, so reactor hellion builds will be significantly nerfed, the 12/14 2rax will suck, reaper openings completely non-viable, and I just don't see why this is needed in the first place. What other strategy do you suggest? This nerfs 2rax and reaper into the ground. Its needed to combat marine all ins in the early game. I think something needs to be done, but maybe the queen isnt the best option. I would have like to see the build time decreased on spine crawlers myself.
It's not needed for anything. It just nerfs Terran's ability to harass with hellions and reapers completely into the ground. It's a ridiculous thing to put into the game.
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So they removed 25 energy from Queen and gave it +2 ground range? It looks so...random. I don't think Queen is the biggest threat to Hellions anyway - its damage is too slow.
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Sorry if this has already been gone over but does the overlord speed change mean that queens can no longer chase down overlords off creep?
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I wonder how blizzard is thinking of making reaper viable in the HotS when they basically make sure that you are not going to use it versus zerg and protoss, pretty much or are they planning to make it only viable in TvT?
Because that is what I think they might be doing. They should just remove the unit and make up something better instead.
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On May 05 2012 16:48 Hall0wed wrote:
Sorry if this has already been gone over but does the overlord speed change mean that queens can no longer chase down overlords off creep?
Queens speed offcreep is 0,94 or something. Still faster than overlord even with the change. You definitely feel it though as your queen is more far from the creep.
I'm not sure to understand the queen's change either... I think that speed ovi is enough to prevent any kind of 1 base TvZ allin.
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EPT
