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On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches.
Wat. I don't even...
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On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches.
Roaches do not outrange cannons behind buildings if the cannons are directly against the building. Good protoss players get a sentry ready to forcefield the hole made by a baneling bust. Sorry.
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On May 05 2012 07:36 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:31 mrjpark wrote:On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches. Wat. I don't even... Read whole text and stop acting like a retard.
Have you ever played Zerg? Baneling busting a cannon wall is not only stupid, but based on blind luck (that the Protoss happens to have a pylon or cannon as part of the wall off rather than just buildings like gateway, forge, cyber, etc.). The only map it's ever really been successful on at a pro level is Belshir Beach because it's not a balanced map. And have you ever seen a roach/baneling all-in against Protoss? I mean, in a perfect scenario, yes this would work. But you wouldn't have "swarms of lings and roaches". You'd have like 7 roaches max, a couple banelings, and some slow lings because you couldn't afford speed to hit in time. It would be a terrible all-in countered by a couple more cannons as soon as the second probe scout sees an all-in coming of any sort (since they're all countered by more cannons).
Edit: Also, reading the whole text doesn't fix anything. Roaches will never outrange cannons behind buildings. Never. It's considered a bust because they're taking hits and forcing their way through with sheer power.
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On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches.
Baneling bust - You're talking about all-inning with banelings
Roach outranging buildings protected by cannons ? You must be playing different game, for sure not ZvP.
Swarming in? I heard sentries do a great job forcefielding stuff.
We're talking about punishing, not going all in. 2 rax or stupid canon rushes/3 pylon block are by no mean all in, and if you get banelings so early to "punish" you are talking about gigantic disadvantage unless you do major damage.
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On May 05 2012 07:39 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches. Roaches do not outrange cannons behind buildings if the cannons are directly against the building. Good protoss players get a sentry ready to forcefield the hole made by a baneling bust. Sorry.
Uh no. If you know your timings and hit around 6:30 mark (when protoss has FFE) they will have 2 sentries max and 2 FF does not cover all the buildings. Also, if you place your cannons right next to the buildings roaches will target it down instantly, you'd need 4 cannons to deny that.
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On May 05 2012 07:48 Lokerek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches. Baneling bust - You're talking about all-inning with banelings Roach outranging buildings protected by cannons ? You must be playing different game, for sure not ZvP. Swarming in? I heard sentries do a great job forcefielding stuff. We're talking about punishing, not going all in. 2 rax or stupid canon rushes/3 pylon block are by no mean all in, and if you get banelings so early to "punish" you are talking about gigantic disadvantage unless you do major damage.
Baneling bust is an all-in yes... The roaches aren't. Unless the cannons are right next to the buildings you can kill the buildings without getting hit by the cannons, and not all protosses put their cannons right behind their buildings, read my previous post for more elaboration on that.
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Hopefully they will finally make Queens massive units while they are tinkering around with them. Early FF on ramps is ridiculously hard to counter, without blindly researching Ovie drops.
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On May 05 2012 08:46 D_bo wrote:
Hopefully they will finally make Queens massive units while they are tinkering around with them. Early FF on ramps is ridiculously hard to counter, without blindly researching Ovie drops.
Seriously? Protoss early pressure becomes nearly impossible then, just walk the queen around to destroy FFs and have lings swarm the sentries.
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On May 05 2012 08:52 ThePrinceAli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:46 D_bo wrote:
Hopefully they will finally make Queens massive units while they are tinkering around with them. Early FF on ramps is ridiculously hard to counter, without blindly researching Ovie drops. Seriously? Protoss early pressure becomes nearly impossible then, just walk the queen around to destroy FFs and have lings swarm the sentries.
You are not talking about pressure. You are talking about abuse of race.
Cutting a whole hatchery of production from coming to base - which ff is essentially doing
you are basically doing the same thing as removing your ability to warp in in the mineral line when lings go to your base.
Unfortunately your zealots will spawn before zerglings cut down pylons while your ff takes a second and can continue it
infinitely due to warp prisms.
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Just snipe the queen... As a Protoss imagine only being able to use 1/2 of warp-ins to defend..
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Someone, give blizz the link to Day[9] cast called "Mass Queen". Where it's showed clearly how OP this unit can be en mass.
Now they want to increase its attack even more.
In my opinion if there is a man who understands in SC2 balance the least - it's D. Kim.
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On May 05 2012 08:56 Lokerek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:52 ThePrinceAli wrote:On May 05 2012 08:46 D_bo wrote:
Hopefully they will finally make Queens massive units while they are tinkering around with them. Early FF on ramps is ridiculously hard to counter, without blindly researching Ovie drops. Seriously? Protoss early pressure becomes nearly impossible then, just walk the queen around to destroy FFs and have lings swarm the sentries. You are not talking about pressure. You are talking about abuse of race. Cutting a whole hatchery of production from coming to base - which ff is essentially doing you are basically doing the same thing as removing your ability to warp in in the mineral line when lings go to your base. Unfortunately your zealots will spawn before zerglings cut down pylons while your ff takes a second and can continue it infinitely due to warp prisms.
except that ff on the ramp isn't the only thing you can think about when considering this change. any sort of early attack that depends on ff is thrown out. That's a lot of possibilities thrown out to stop one thing
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On May 05 2012 08:30 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:48 Lokerek wrote:On May 05 2012 07:14 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches. Baneling bust - You're talking about all-inning with banelings Roach outranging buildings protected by cannons ? You must be playing different game, for sure not ZvP. Swarming in? I heard sentries do a great job forcefielding stuff. We're talking about punishing, not going all in. 2 rax or stupid canon rushes/3 pylon block are by no mean all in, and if you get banelings so early to "punish" you are talking about gigantic disadvantage unless you do major damage. Baneling bust is an all-in yes... The roaches aren't. Unless the cannons are right next to the buildings you can kill the buildings without getting hit by the cannons, and not all protosses put their cannons right behind their buildings, read my previous post for more elaboration on that.
Roaches have a range of 4. Cannons have a range of 7. You have 2 extra hexes to work with where you can protect your buildings without putting your cannon right alongside it. If you can't do that, then you deserve to lose your buildings. There's a reason pro Zergs have stopped all-inning the Protoss off 2 bases and are all going quick 3 base. You just won't do enough damage to someone with half a brain. The only reason all-ins still work on the ladder is because they (not the pros) think they can get away with sitting on 1 cannon without ever scouting past the initial probe scout.
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On May 05 2012 08:59 Jimbo77 wrote:
Someone, give blizz the link to Day[9] cast called "Mass Queen". Where it's showed clearly how OP this unit can be en mass.
Now they want to increase its attack even more.
In my opinion if there is a man who understands in SC2 balance the least - it's D. Kim.
Please... the only replay where it looked 'op' was when CatZ did it, transfusing broodlords, and it took him like 15 games to actually win doing this. He streamed them all.
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On May 05 2012 08:57 D_bo wrote:
Just snipe the queen... As a Protoss imagine only being able to use 1/2 of warp-ins to defend..
"Snipe" the queen? The thing has 175 hp with 1 armor, is quite fast on creep, and now has 5 range in this map...You can't "snipe" it with a slow small force of zealot/sentry as it can run around on creep, unless the zerg literally has no other defenses.
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On May 05 2012 09:02 ePLocust wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:56 Lokerek wrote:On May 05 2012 08:52 ThePrinceAli wrote:On May 05 2012 08:46 D_bo wrote:
Hopefully they will finally make Queens massive units while they are tinkering around with them. Early FF on ramps is ridiculously hard to counter, without blindly researching Ovie drops. Seriously? Protoss early pressure becomes nearly impossible then, just walk the queen around to destroy FFs and have lings swarm the sentries. You are not talking about pressure. You are talking about abuse of race. Cutting a whole hatchery of production from coming to base - which ff is essentially doing you are basically doing the same thing as removing your ability to warp in in the mineral line when lings go to your base. Unfortunately your zealots will spawn before zerglings cut down pylons while your ff takes a second and can continue it infinitely due to warp prisms. except that ff on the ramp isn't the only thing you can think about when considering this change. any sort of early attack that depends on ff is thrown out. That's a lot of possibilities thrown out to stop one thing
Like i said just snipe the queen..
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On May 05 2012 09:09 ThePrinceAli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 D_bo wrote:
Just snipe the queen... As a Protoss imagine only being able to use 1/2 of warp-ins to defend.. "Snipe" the queen? The thing has 175 hp with 1 armor, is quite fast on creep, and now has 5 range in this map...You can't "snipe" it with a slow small force of zealot/sentry as it can run around on creep, unless the zerg literally has no other defenses.
if onyl toss had some fast unit off T1 with 6 range
its a shame they dont
but massive queen isnt the solution, FFing the ramp barely happens thats more of a map makers problem then Blizzs problem there are plenty of maps you cant FF the ramp easily and im pretty sure VRs get bonus to massive so it would make holding air alot harder
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On May 05 2012 09:11 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:09 ThePrinceAli wrote:On May 05 2012 08:57 D_bo wrote:
Just snipe the queen... As a Protoss imagine only being able to use 1/2 of warp-ins to defend.. "Snipe" the queen? The thing has 175 hp with 1 armor, is quite fast on creep, and now has 5 range in this map...You can't "snipe" it with a slow small force of zealot/sentry as it can run around on creep, unless the zerg literally has no other defenses. if onyl toss had some fast unit off T1 with 6 range its a shame they dont but massive queen isnt the solution, FFing the ramp barely happens thats more of a map makers problem then Blizzs problem there are plenty of maps you cant FF the ramp easily and im pretty sure VRs get bonus to massive so it would make holding air alot harder
If only that unit didn't suck versus speedlings that can easily surround if there's no FFs 
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I love how not even a day and they remove the old queen buff because people were crying before they even played that it was op. And now the same thing is going to happen to 5 range queens...
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EPT
