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On May 05 2012 05:24 mrjpark wrote:
Larva is produced at a rate of 1 every 15 seconds. Also, spawning pool takes over a minute to finish building. You'll have the larva. Also, I take it you don't 6 pool much. The standard six pool actually incorporates extractor tricks to reach 10 lings quickly and then the ovie right after. Your suggestion is broken. Move on.
Larva is produced at a rate of 1 every 15 seconds
- Yes, but with a cap of 3. This will not help you any.
Also, spawning pool takes over a minute to finish building. You'll have the larva.
- Yes, same as it does today, this is a void arguement, this is same wheter the pool is free or cost 1k. You cannot stack more than 3 larvae until you have a queen up.
The standard six pool actually incorporates extractor tricks to reach 10 lings quickly and then the ovie right after.
- Again, you will still ofcourse do the extractor tricks, nothing changes, other than you will have alot more minerals you cannot possibly spend if you try a 6pool.
The only difference of the result of this is that you will be able to attack with the 6pool the amount of time it takes to mine the 100 or 150 extra minerals earlier.
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On May 05 2012 05:31 Existor wrote:
Faster overlord ruins any rush and all-in strategies in ZvZ. Now, every Zerg will be ready to any incoming atack in ZvZ. That matchup now becomes a totally macro-oriented game. Sadly...
That's bad news for you? 90% of all zergs complain that their mirror matchup is too coinflippy and that allins are too effective. This is exactly what your race wants and if it's not what you want then i suggest that you switch race.
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I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design.
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On May 05 2012 05:48 prOpSaiton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:31 Existor wrote:
Faster overlord ruins any rush and all-in strategies in ZvZ. Now, every Zerg will be ready to any incoming atack in ZvZ. That matchup now becomes a totally macro-oriented game. Sadly... That's bad news for you? 90% of all zergs complain that their mirror matchup is too coinflippy and that allins are too effective. This is exactly what your race wants and if it's not what you want then i suggest that you switch race.
I think he's being sarcastic xD
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On May 05 2012 05:23 Twerrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:16 onlinerobbe wrote:On May 05 2012 05:10 Twerrax wrote:On May 05 2012 05:01 Grend wrote:On May 05 2012 04:37 Twerrax wrote:
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva. You crack me up  Let`s make larvae be returned from cancelled eggs too while were at it. Should not have any effect on early rushes  Edit: just realized: if it costed 50 you could actually start making the pool at once. Hahahaha So what if you could make a pool at once. You still wont have any more larva, you cant 6pool with more lings, it would just come a few secs earlier. It would still not be a viable strat in any circumstance, hell Z cheese is way underpowered if you ask me. Though it would make up for somewhat a better weak Z early game. :o go ingame and check how long it takes to get those 200 minerals and than look at how much damage you can still do, and then think about how much earlier you'd be in your opponents base with 6 lings, I'm not sure a pool right away would actually be soppable with a normal start from the opponent^^ I'm not even sure if you're serious because of how ridiculously strong it'd be Why is this so much stronger than a normal 6 pool? You will not have any more larvae. You will be supply capped at the same places etc. Even with todays 6pool you are not broke, you are short of larvae. Its not like more money will spawn you more larvae.
because it hits like half a minute earlier. And yes, you will have more larva and zerglings at the same time you have 6zerglings right now, because right now, you lose like 2larva = 4zerglings, by waiting for the 200minerals. Instead you will have 10zerglings at the same time you have 6now.
It's a stupid idea, it might not completly break the game because of wallins, but it might make FFE completly unavailable, ZvZ completly stupid. It's a buff to a coinflip build, that's exactly what this patch is about: stopping the coinflipping that zergs right now have to do after hellions have taken mapcontrol.
For casual play, this change does close to nothing, because against bad Terrans, you can already do 4queen openings and push out with creep and they won't be able to handle those queens because their micro and multitasking sucks and they lose their hellions at some point anyway, even if they don't just sacrifice them on drones.
And the overlord change doesn't do anything either, because you will get your Overlords in place anyways and scout in and bad Terrans won't be prepared to deny them.
On professional level however, the Terran players know each and every overlord location and open with a build that either forces the Overlord to not go there or just die and you will not even be able to see a glimpse of their production or army, besides of that bunker at the front. 20% overlord speed, allow you to maybe get a second overlord close to the the Terran base, to maybe see a bit more and maybe safe an overlord early, that got spotted, nothing more, but that's huge for players who can differentiate between builds by seeing +/- 1marine.
And for hellions, on professional level, Terrans don't allow any creep spreading. Mineral only openings have fallen completly out of style again, because there was no use in building 4+ queens, as the hellions would never ever allow some creep spreading anyways, while you make yourself vulnurable to runbys because properly controlled hellions would never ever die against anything but 2times the cost in speedlings.
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What I don't understand is how the changes initially proposed by Blizzard were apparently well thought out, and that they were only looking to the community for minor feedback. But within a single day, they already revert one of the changes, which means that they can't have thought of the tweak as either a true solution or a very viable change. Seems like they're just throwing out ideas until one sticks, rather than being confident in their balance decisions.
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On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design.
No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression
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If there isn't any way to punish it, it isn't really greedy anymore, though.
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On May 05 2012 05:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:23 Twerrax wrote:On May 05 2012 05:16 onlinerobbe wrote:On May 05 2012 05:10 Twerrax wrote:On May 05 2012 05:01 Grend wrote:On May 05 2012 04:37 Twerrax wrote:
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva. You crack me up Let`s make larvae be returned from cancelled eggs too while were at it. Should not have any effect on early rushes Edit: just realized: if it costed 50 you could actually start making the pool at once. Hahahaha So what if you could make a pool at once. You still wont have any more larva, you cant 6pool with more lings, it would just come a few secs earlier. It would still not be a viable strat in any circumstance, hell Z cheese is way underpowered if you ask me. Though it would make up for somewhat a better weak Z early game. :o go ingame and check how long it takes to get those 200 minerals and than look at how much damage you can still do, and then think about how much earlier you'd be in your opponents base with 6 lings, I'm not sure a pool right away would actually be soppable with a normal start from the opponent^^ I'm not even sure if you're serious because of how ridiculously strong it'd be Why is this so much stronger than a normal 6 pool? You will not have any more larvae. You will be supply capped at the same places etc. Even with todays 6pool you are not broke, you are short of larvae. Its not like more money will spawn you more larvae. because it hits like half a minute earlier. And yes, you will have more larva and zerglings at the same time you have 6zerglings right now, because right now, you lose like 2larva = 4zerglings, by waiting for the 200minerals. Instead you will have 10zerglings at the same time you have 6now. It's a stupid idea, it might not completly break the game because of wallins, but it might make FFE completly unavailable, ZvZ completly stupid. It's a buff to a coinflip build, that's exactly what this patch is about: stopping the coinflipping that zergs right now have to do after hellions have taken mapcontrol. For casual play, this change does close to nothing, because against bad Terrans, you can already do 4queen openings and push out with creep and they won't be able to handle those queens because their micro and multitasking sucks and they lose their hellions at some point anyway, even if they don't just sacrifice them on drones. And the overlord change doesn't do anything either, because you will get your Overlords in place anyways and scout in and bad Terrans won't be prepared to deny them. On professional level however, the Terran players know each and every overlord location and open with a build that either forces the Overlord to not go there or just die and you will not even be able to see a glimpse of their production or army, besides of that bunker at the front. 20% overlord speed, allow you to maybe get a second overlord close to the the Terran base, to maybe see a bit more and maybe safe an overlord early, that got spotted, nothing more, but that's huge for players who can differentiate between builds by seeing +/- 1marine. And for hellions, on professional level, Terrans don't allow any creep spreading. Mineral only openings have fallen completly out of style again, because there was no use in building 4+ queens, as the hellions would never ever allow some creep spreading anyways, while you make yourself vulnurable to runbys because properly controlled hellions would never ever die against anything but 2times the cost in speedlings.
Or roaches, or mutas
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On May 05 2012 05:55 Sarsi wrote:
If there isn't any way to punish it, it isn't really greedy anymore, though.
True enough, looks like we will have to start planetary fortress rushing zergs naturals in order to win
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On May 05 2012 06:03 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:50 Big J wrote:On May 05 2012 05:23 Twerrax wrote:On May 05 2012 05:16 onlinerobbe wrote:On May 05 2012 05:10 Twerrax wrote:On May 05 2012 05:01 Grend wrote:On May 05 2012 04:37 Twerrax wrote:
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva. You crack me up Let`s make larvae be returned from cancelled eggs too while were at it. Should not have any effect on early rushes Edit: just realized: if it costed 50 you could actually start making the pool at once. Hahahaha So what if you could make a pool at once. You still wont have any more larva, you cant 6pool with more lings, it would just come a few secs earlier. It would still not be a viable strat in any circumstance, hell Z cheese is way underpowered if you ask me. Though it would make up for somewhat a better weak Z early game. :o go ingame and check how long it takes to get those 200 minerals and than look at how much damage you can still do, and then think about how much earlier you'd be in your opponents base with 6 lings, I'm not sure a pool right away would actually be soppable with a normal start from the opponent^^ I'm not even sure if you're serious because of how ridiculously strong it'd be Why is this so much stronger than a normal 6 pool? You will not have any more larvae. You will be supply capped at the same places etc. Even with todays 6pool you are not broke, you are short of larvae. Its not like more money will spawn you more larvae. because it hits like half a minute earlier. And yes, you will have more larva and zerglings at the same time you have 6zerglings right now, because right now, you lose like 2larva = 4zerglings, by waiting for the 200minerals. Instead you will have 10zerglings at the same time you have 6now. It's a stupid idea, it might not completly break the game because of wallins, but it might make FFE completly unavailable, ZvZ completly stupid. It's a buff to a coinflip build, that's exactly what this patch is about: stopping the coinflipping that zergs right now have to do after hellions have taken mapcontrol. For casual play, this change does close to nothing, because against bad Terrans, you can already do 4queen openings and push out with creep and they won't be able to handle those queens because their micro and multitasking sucks and they lose their hellions at some point anyway, even if they don't just sacrifice them on drones. And the overlord change doesn't do anything either, because you will get your Overlords in place anyways and scout in and bad Terrans won't be prepared to deny them. On professional level however, the Terran players know each and every overlord location and open with a build that either forces the Overlord to not go there or just die and you will not even be able to see a glimpse of their production or army, besides of that bunker at the front. 20% overlord speed, allow you to maybe get a second overlord close to the the Terran base, to maybe see a bit more and maybe safe an overlord early, that got spotted, nothing more, but that's huge for players who can differentiate between builds by seeing +/- 1marine. And for hellions, on professional level, Terrans don't allow any creep spreading. Mineral only openings have fallen completly out of style again, because there was no use in building 4+ queens, as the hellions would never ever allow some creep spreading anyways, while you make yourself vulnurable to runbys because properly controlled hellions would never ever die against anything but 2times the cost in speedlings. Or roaches, or mutas
or pancakes... wtf are you responding to?
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On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression
theres no real way to punish a greedy terran that can go fast CC AND harass with marines at the same time as zerg. there is also no real way to punish a FFE which is a greedy toss build. both of those races have a easy time defending there greedy builds, why shouldnt zerg have the same luxury? its a known fact that zergs early game defense is crap, and that is what most players abuse to no end.
the third base of zerg and queen is to keep up with a toss FFE or a terran fast expand. if the third dies for zerg in ZvP for example and its 2 base vs 2 base the zerg is at a disadvantage, everyone knows this because everyone abuses that fact by trying to deny zergs third.
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On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design.
queens tickle roachs, if queens had 50 years or if they ahd infintie force fields they might be able to stop a roach push
ZvZ wont change, overlord wont get there fast enough still for you to tell if its a 10 pool fast enough to drop a 14 hatch
as ZvZ is now it was impossible to stop a scout since queens do so little DPS anyway
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The range buff sounds good since I always roll queens in monobattles!
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On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression
almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression
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On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression
you forgot to mention bunkers
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On May 05 2012 06:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression you forgot to mention bunkers
you forgot to mention banelings
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On May 05 2012 06:38 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:14 Big J wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression you forgot to mention bunkers you forgot to mention banelings
What? lol. You can't make a wall with banelings silly.
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On May 05 2012 04:38 Huragius wrote:
So, basically queen buff is designed to deflect whole hellion harass. Now zerg will make additional few queens and will always push hellions away while spreading creep to third. Hellion FE with Fast Third Base will lose it's whole purpose, because zerg will take his third early without making any gas units which is fucking insane... 1 spine 3 queens and a group of zerglings behind them is all what it will take to secure third base. With all that saved up gas will see ridiculous shit like double evo chamber and 12 infestors poping out during mid game while teching to fast hive... Good luck Terrans lol.
It's freaking sad that people and blizzard think that hellion FE is a problem in ZvT. What they don't realize is that it is the only macro oriented build which doesn't put you too far behind (exception is maps like Shakuras Plateu where you can do 1 rax or 2 rax FE).
IMHO these balance changes are heading to a wrong direction. They will only encourage terran do to more all-ins and less macro or harass oriented builds... Only overlord speed change makes sense. I don't really know which change is worse, queen energy or queen ground attack range...
But but but... we terrans are still so strong in the early game... OH WAIT, that was before the 50 nerfs.
It's like this atm: hey terrans, you should build up an advantage early game, but we nerf every possibility.
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On May 05 2012 06:12 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:52 teamhozac wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Raid wrote:
I'd imagine the spanishiwa style would come back with a vengence LOL 5 range queens out ranging roaches seriously blizzard? How in the world is that suppose to be good game design. No shit, theres literally no way you can punish a greedy zerg anymore, blindly making 3 queens and throwing down a spine pretty much covers any agression almost like making a building wall and a cannon covers any aggression
Hate to disagree with you Idra, but a baneling bust will destroy that wall, and a handful of roaches can outrange the cannons behind the buildings so the roaches can kill the buildings and swarm in with lings and roaches.
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EPT
