EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 81
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Paraxis
Ireland2 Posts
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Nevertras
United States27 Posts
Yes, I'm joking, but the idea that queens can attack from behind a line of roaches is oddly compelling. | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On May 04 2012 22:54 teamhozac wrote: This has been the case since the dawn of the game, we are supposed to be the "harass race" the "early pressure race" who needs to put pressure on our opponents in order to stay even/get ahead. Unfortunately blizzard has done everything possible in order to make it harder for us to actually apply this pressure effectively. Rax nerf, reaper nerf, bunker nerf, BFH nerf, bigger maps, etc. Now this bullshit, better scouting for zerg, increased queen range, Blizzard really hates Terran. Some goober (community manager) over on the Battlenet forums was saying how TvP late game "may be Protoss favored" unless the Terran "uses his early/midgame advantage to stay even" How are we supposed to do this if they keep nerfing us, making the maps bigger, giving zerg/protoss better defense/scouting... shit has just gotten out of hand. Just because Terran early game was broken for most of SC2's history doesn't mean the race is supposed to be strong early and ride that advantage in the late game. Races should be able to compete with each other at every stage of the game, it's the best way to make things interesting. Making Terran's early game weaker or at least less prone to coinflips is the first step in balancing TvZ. When that is done, maybe they will be able to actually see if the game is balanced late game or not and make adjustements if needed (putting back the real snipe for example). Because at this point we mostly see terran fail early game cheeses or timings and then bitch that BL-infestor is too strong. On an other subject, the queen change might be pretty cool against banelings. They will cover a larger area of the drone line and hit at least once more. Maybe that will limite a bit the effectiveness of the early pools-baneling nests. | ||
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hillman
United States162 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:01 ssg wrote: "Queen starting energy increased to 50, up from 25." Ugh. Way, WAY WAY too drastic god not really...all you have to do is kill creep off...its still being tested anyway..all of you who say this will be the end of the world are wimps...its soooo easy to kill of creep | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:03 hillman wrote: god not really...all you have to do is kill creep off...its still being tested anyway..all of you who say this will be the end of the world are wimps...its soooo easy to kill of creep this has already been removed  Queens are now being tested with +2range instead | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On May 05 2012 01:44 Diavlo wrote: Just because Terran early game was broken for most of SC2's history doesn't mean the race is supposed to be strong early and ride that advantage in the late game. Races should be able to compete with each other at every stage of the game, it's the best way to make things interesting. Making Terran's early game weaker or at least less prone to coinflips is the first step in balancing TvZ. When that is done, maybe they will be able to actually see if the game is balanced late game or not and make adjustements if needed (putting back the real snipe for example). Because at this point we mostly see terran fail early game cheeses or timings and then bitch that BL-infestor is too strong. On an other subject, the queen change might be pretty cool against banelings. They will cover a larger area of the drone line and hit at least once more. Maybe that will limite a bit the effectiveness of the early pools-baneling nests. Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:22 -Archangel- wrote: I only wonder if these new change was brought on by legit pro player feedback or by whining noobs on TL and blizz forums. Last night Leenock said that David Kim talked to him a lot. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
I really struggle in tvz atm. Wonder if we will ever see a reaper in that MU again if the Queen range change goes through. Most maps have 3 really close bases, Zerg has the most mobile army and can easily defend them therefor, since it is almost one of the most efficient ways to max on 3 bases anyway they don't stretch themself thin in the early or mid games, thus leaving not many spots to attack. Totally different topic: Fungal growth, I think it is balanced, it is just not a very fun mechanic. Since blizz seems to ignore this matter I thought it should be brought up more often. And finally, collosi stink. ;P | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:20 teamhozac wrote: Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant Protoss is basically in the same boat against Zerg, heh. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Blizzard need to really start getting on the ball with balancing. These changes make no sense. Why are they not addressing important issues like allowing Terran to have an equal terms lategame with Z/P and why are they not fixing lategame ZvP/PvZ where the game is literally decided by two vortexes for one side or the other? Just disappointing from blizzard to be honest. | ||
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GuardianEU
Netherlands488 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:22 -Archangel- wrote: I only wonder if these new change was brought on by legit pro player feedback or by whining noobs on TL and blizz forums. a 20% overlord speed increase isn't something the average sc2 zerg player with scouting problems would come up with. I for one was thinking about bringing the speed upgrade to hatchery tehc for example, I really think this is a good change. and no one would ever suggest the +2 range for queens, which is a good change aswell imo, now you can harass bunker building SCVs a little bit more, this also makes queens unkitable vs marines, hellions(splash is 6, but attack range is 5) and reapers. it's not too much, no one will go mass queen just because of this buff, but it will give a lot better defense vs some agressive bunker play etc etc. overall I love the changes, not too much, but it still solves the problem. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:20 teamhozac wrote: Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant Technically, you can do mech builds and fast 3-CC builds without doing any sort of pressure, but I'm sure that with the overlord speed buff, you'll get scouted too easily to pull those off, so... | ||
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mrjpark
United States276 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:59 GuardianEU wrote: a 20% overlord speed increase isn't something the average sc2 zerg player with scouting problems would come up with. I for one was thinking about bringing the speed upgrade to hatchery tehc for example, I really think this is a good change. and no one would ever suggest the +2 range for queens, which is a good change aswell imo, now you can harass bunker building SCVs a little bit more, this also makes queens unkitable vs marines, hellions(splash is 6, but attack range is 5) and reapers. it's not too much, no one will go mass queen just because of this buff, but it will give a lot better defense vs some agressive bunker play etc etc. overall I love the changes, not too much, but it still solves the problem. Yeah, I think the new change is much less rage-inducing for the other races. Edit: That said, I think I still like the other approach better as it provided a much more long term stability for the race. This range upgrade will help with bunker rushes, reapers, hellions, etc., but no one really has problems holding these anymore. It feels like this buff was meant for 2010 or early 2011. | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
 50 start-energie is too strong in my opinion, i like the other two changes. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:20 teamhozac wrote: Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant while your right, that hasn't anything to to with terran, but Larva mechanic which is OP in its own way, protoss has the same issue in PvZ also ZvZ would be the same when one player plays greedier and the other don't forces units to even it out. | ||
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Beakyboo
United States485 Posts
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 05 2012 03:34 Beakyboo wrote: I think it's pretty obvious at this point that these queen buffs are geared towards stopping the pylon/bunker ramp block without sticking the neutral depots on ladder maps, which it's hardly surprising that they're opposed to doing I don't see how that would help, queens aren't going to be out yet most of the time for those types of blocks. | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:20 teamhozac wrote: Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant Yes you have to make zergs do other things than drone up and you have to limit their ability to expand. That's not the same as needing to get ahead in the early game just so you can survive the late game. Giving Zergs better way of scouting doesn't change the fact that they will have to make units instead of drones to counter you. It just changes the fact that you won't get to straight up kill the Zerg just because he couldn't scout your all-in/cheese. We need a game where the Terran puts to the Zerg's ability to make the correct decision against what the terran is doing to the test more than a game where the Terran chooses an all-in and crosses his fingers that the zerg is not blindly countering it. For the same reason i approve of the observer time decrease and would like the scans to be cheaper. Just for the game to be a little less f***ing random. | ||
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TaeTae
United Kingdom97 Posts
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