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On April 26 2012 15:12 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:05 pdd wrote:
Those being weary of KeSPA. Do you really think GOM and Blizzard would allow them to limit player participation in their leagues? Do you really think Blizzard has no bargaining chip against them enforcing their weird ass rules? Do you know that the OGN-LoL league which is sanctioned by them (although I'm not sure it is organized by them) them includes 2 foreign teams? Do you think none of the Koreans in KeSPA teams want to get more money from participating at MLGs, Dreamhacks and IPLs? Unfortunately it's those "weird-ass rules" (progamer licencing, fixed team/sponsor lineup) that gave Brood War competition the legitimacy and integrity it had. Without that, it would never have been the same, or as big probably. Current SC2 scene is a huge mess, there is no order or structure to it. Tournaments, teams and players do whatever they want, when they want it, how they want it.
They self-regulate well enough.
Sponsorships? Look at most of the SC2 (ZeNEX being the only exception). Most of them have got pretty sustainable sponsorship deals. The entire western esports have been attracting sponsors for so long.
License? I think KeSPA were making more of a push towards amateurs when they did their amateur qualifiers last OSL. Fact is you don't and shouldn't need to have a license to play SC2 competitively. GSL's rules regarding a certain amount of ladder points as the limitation to join the qualifiers, should be the only regulation which is acceptable. We wouldn't have our Scarletts and Marus with such limiting rules.
Regulation? Every league and teams know how to self-regulate. Look at what SlayerS and Prime did to Coca and Byun. Yes the rules are really weird and random. But it makes a lot of better sense than KeSPA's in-game chat etiquette. The only issue I have is tournaments using differing versions of maps and map pools, but that's a small price to pay.
Yes, what KeSPA did was good for the Korean SC:BW scene. But if you're going to isolate a majority of your viewers by restricting your league's assimilation with the rest of the SC2 scene, everyone is going to lose out in the long-run.
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On April 26 2012 14:18 whsper wrote:patch 1.5?
I am not so sure if I want that. The "metagame" right now feels really weird and shifting right now. I would like to see the direction first before Blizzard changes balance. A hydra-buff would be something I would be down with though.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high.
You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here.
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OMG
What a wonderful month.
This better be the announcement that finnally the day has come for BW players to start playing SC2.
I have waited so long for an actual date to see the whole starcraft pro community playing the same game, SC2. Flash, Bisu, JD, Mkp, MC, MMA, Mvp, Nestea.... LETS GOOOOO!!!
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On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here.
Oh you wouldn't want to hear what I heard from CJ Entus PR when I brought up the topic of IdrA...
But yes, if foreigners were that good, the teams would have picked up the players and give them special licenses so that they can participate in the leagues (there are 2 ways to become a progamer: Courage which is NOT 1 winner per 3 months (it's still small but definitely not 1) or through special licenses given out by the team).
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On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here.
2 per year? Foreign teams have put more players than that in a single gsl.
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May is gonna be the busiest month of the years. Everything-wise.
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On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here.
Most people in the sc2 community are grossly misinformed on kespa and how it works, its a shame but thats what happens when everyone just listens to what a few angry foreigners have to say  .
On April 26 2012 15:42 ssg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here. 2 per year? Foreign teams have put more than players that in a single gsl.
Foreign BW players were terrible, there wasn't money in it for them.
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Wait... if kespa running proleague for sc2, doesnt that mean everyone who participates has to have a progaming license? What will happen to players like boxer and nada??
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On April 26 2012 15:44 OpTiKDream wrote:
Wait... if kespa running proleague for sc2, doesnt that mean everyone who participates has to have a progaming license? What will happen to players like boxer and nada??
I don't get why people automatically assume that KeSPA are not going to relax or even change its rules regarding progamer licenses when they switch to SC2.
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On April 26 2012 15:42 ssg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here. 2 per year? Foreign teams have put more players than that in a single gsl.
yes and how many of all this 54645698756 foreigners get destroyed 0-2 over and over and over and over and over and over again?
what is the point if there is no license they still get destroyed. with a license they arent allowed anymore 2 get destroyed unless they get any good.
but i guess everyone knows that every foreigner but 3 or 4 suck so they dont want that and hope they get seeds like from Gom Code S or some shit?
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On April 26 2012 15:46 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:44 OpTiKDream wrote:
Wait... if kespa running proleague for sc2, doesnt that mean everyone who participates has to have a progaming license? What will happen to players like boxer and nada?? I don't get why people automatically assume that KeSPA are not going to relax or even change its rules regarding progamer licenses when they switch to SC2.
Yeah, I would say the only restriction for PL is that the players would need to be in an official team in the league. But right now I just wish they cooperate with GOM nicely. That's a really good step to take.
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On April 26 2012 15:46 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:42 ssg wrote:On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here. 2 per year? Foreign teams have put more players than that in a single gsl. yes and how many of all this 54645698756 foreigners get destroyed 0-2 over and over and over and over and over and over again? what is the point if there is no license they still get destroyed. with a license they arent allowed anymore 2 get destroyed unless they get any good. but i guess everyone knows that every foreigner but 3 or 4 suck so they dont want that and hope they get seeds like from Gom Code S or some shit?
I said teams, not players. Team Liquid, for example, has three gsl caliber players. Now do we force these players to join a new team in order to continue to compete at the highest level? Seems dumb, this seems like an attempt to save the Korean scene when all the money is overseas, even when the talent isn't. But we will have to wait on the announcement.
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On April 26 2012 15:41 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here. Oh you wouldn't want to hear what I heard from CJ Entus PR when I brought up the topic of IdrA...
I`m curious about that...
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On April 26 2012 15:50 ssg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 15:46 rasers wrote:On April 26 2012 15:42 ssg wrote:On April 26 2012 15:38 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 15:16 masterbreti wrote:On April 26 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:On April 26 2012 14:59 masterbreti wrote:
well this basically end the foreigner scene once kespa gets involved. if kespa acts like they do with bw on sc2. It'll be the end of the foreign scene. foreigner will either have to join a korean team or can't play in kespa leagues. which means that no foreigners will play in leagues and then Koreans won't actually want to play for foreign teams.
Koreansd will have less time to play in foreign events, which will take a lot of the starpower away from foreign tournaments, which won't help viewers. If Kespa gets their way its over. I just hope blizz and gom know what they are doing and don't let that happen. This is just a tiiiiiiny bit presumptuous don't you think. Particularly seeing as all the teams have expressed their biggest regret about BW was that it wasn't international? If they keep the system they have in bw going in sc2. It will end the foreign scene. It may not be directly, but it'll happen. No more huk in GSL ever, since he isn't good enough to get through Code B, no more Jinro, SaSe, Haypro, stephano in GSL. Cause they would have to win courage first. And having a Code B like tournament, I doubt even Naniwa would be able to win one, just because the brutality of it is so high. You must be forgetting the free progamer liscences that kespa gave to teams (2 per year), arguably so that SKT could give LX and PJ licences (chinese players) and indeed, estro eventually gave idra his license through that. KeSPA never kept foreigners away, foreigners were just too shit to compete at the end of BWs life. KeSPA isn't an evil entity, they have done some dickish moves in the past, but on the whole they grew brood war in Korea and made it so that there is a esports framework setup for future generations. No reason that the same won't happen here. 2 per year? Foreign teams have put more players than that in a single gsl. yes and how many of all this 54645698756 foreigners get destroyed 0-2 over and over and over and over and over and over again? what is the point if there is no license they still get destroyed. with a license they arent allowed anymore 2 get destroyed unless they get any good. but i guess everyone knows that every foreigner but 3 or 4 suck so they dont want that and hope they get seeds like from Gom Code S or some shit? I said teams, not players. Team Liquid, for example, has three gsl caliber players. Now do we force these players to join a new team in order to continue to compete at the highest level? Seems dumb, this seems like an attempt to save the Korean scene when all the money is overseas, even when the talent isn't. But we will have to wait on the announcement.
they still can play in GSL. just not Proleague maybe.
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This is sooo huge. I am going to have an awesome month!!
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Holy shit, today is the day of days for me. Stephano GSL Code S invite, TSL4, Proof of the bonjwas practicing SC2, and now this?!!??! To much for me to handle!!
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Bitter sweet. I feel betrayed by my long time BW bonjwas.
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On April 26 2012 15:33 pdd wrote:
Sponsorships? Look at most of the SC2 (ZeNEX being the only exception). Most of them have got pretty sustainable sponsorship deals.
They really don't, not at the level of Telecoms or Samsung or CJ - and they technically don't just sponsor their teams, it's their teams. SC2 teams can maybe sustain their teams at the current level, but that's still really more of a sponsored clan level than a professional sports club level.
On April 26 2012 15:33 pdd wrote:
License? I think KeSPA were making more of a push towards amateurs when they did their amateur qualifiers last OSL. Fact is you don't and shouldn't need to have a license to play SC2 competitively. GSL's rules regarding a certain amount of ladder points as the limitation to join the qualifiers, should be the only regulation which is acceptable. We wouldn't have our Scarletts and Marus with such limiting rules.
Of course we would have new blood and new talent. With the picture you pain, one would assume that Brood War was played by 30 year olds now. Brood War has by.Sun, Wooki, BaBy, hell even Flash is basically a kid (and he most definitely was when he started winning). How do you think they got in?
It's most definitely not a "fact" that you shouldn't need a licence to play SC2 professionally - it's just what you wish were the case. Some sort of licencing and qualification exists for any profession on the planet. If you want legitimacy, you need to separate professional players from amateur players to stop diluting the scene and focus on those players that really are the most talented, hardest workers and most committed.
On April 26 2012 15:33 pdd wrote:
Regulation? Every league and teams know how to self-regulate. Look at what SlayerS and Prime did to Coca and Byun. Yes the rules are really weird and random. But it makes a lot of better sense than KeSPA's in-game chat etiquette. The only issue I have is tournaments using differing versions of maps and map pools, but that's a small price to pay.
Look at the drama between Slayers and Zenex when Slayers basically poached half their players. Or the whole FruitDealer and Tester crap. Or TSL and oGs. Or Rain being banned/suspended from GSL and Idra being rewarded a free Code S spot a year later for doing the exact same thing. Or GOM seeding whoever they feel will bring them the most views straight into Code S.
Self-regulation isn't serious enough and isn't good enough, you're basically stuck with spur-of-the-moment decisions that can go whichever way the wind blows that day and decide whatever seems more convenient at the time.
On April 26 2012 15:33 pdd wrote:
Yes, what KeSPA did was good for the Korean SC:BW scene. But if you're going to isolate a majority of your viewers by restricting your league's assimilation with the rest of the SC2 scene, everyone is going to lose out in the long-run.
Or it can bring out your real audience instead of generic esports fans that will lose interest the moment dota 2 or any new hot marketed title comes out anyway (same case being with western sponsors, teams, etc).
Western SC2 is definitely, no matter what going to lose in the long run because western esports "regulars" - the people and companies - have proven a million times over in the past that they are purely opportunistic and cannot be trusted and relied upon to grow and nurture a scene for any single game.
There is place for a foreign SC2 scene and based on what the coaches said recently, it definitely seems that Kespa will take it into account this time. But for the sake of SC2 anywhere, it should be on their terms and within their system, because it's an inherently more serious and mature system, and the only one that has ever been proven to work in the long run.
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an announcement of an announcement.. seems pretty esports to me lol.
With that said cant wait to hear what it is.. I bet its gonna be confirmation on the OSL 2 and perhaps something regarding Code S seeds to and from OSL or something...
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EPT
