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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
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Hrm, for sc2 atleast:
Playing ZvZ, the worst
Playing TvT, the best
*watching* ZvZ, the best
*watching* PvP, the worst
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Surprised that SC2 TvT beat out BW. I think people just don't have any idea how BW TvT plays. It is far better IMO.
As far as ZvZ and PvP, I think I prefer the SC2 versions better, but not by much. BW TvT is just so good though...
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On April 23 2012 23:45 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote:
I enjoy ZvZ SC2... I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ? I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
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On April 23 2012 23:54 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:45 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote:
I enjoy ZvZ SC2... I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ? I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less. So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
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On April 23 2012 23:57 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:54 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 23:45 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote:
I enjoy ZvZ SC2... I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ? I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less. So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ? Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
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On April 23 2012 21:23 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 19:50 Adonminus wrote:
Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups. TvT is far and away the best mirror in sc2. PvP is two blindfolded guys flipping coins that ends in either an all-in or collossus wars. Having to PvP 1/3 of your ladder games is literally the worst thing about picking toss.
I enjoy PvPs because I can secure a win if I do everything right. There's no coinflipping, you sir don't know anything about PvP. I would enjoy playing 100% pvp on ladder
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I think you can really only enjoy watching a mirror of the race you main. and even then its debatable. To that end BW ZvZ was/is my favorite mirror MU. Not just for the game play, but also the game length!
Also I think we can all agree that on those 1/10,000 BW ZvZs where nether player manages to die during the muta stage of the game. Then the shit hits the fan or plaguuuu hits the mutas!
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i love zvz in both games. my least favourite mu is pvp in broodwar.
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On April 24 2012 00:03 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:57 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 23:54 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 23:45 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote:
I enjoy ZvZ SC2... I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ? I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less. So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ? Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad. Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
Not that I can remember, sorry, maybe some Nestea games, but I can't think of any off the top of my head, and I usually have a pretty decent memory if the game is so distinctive. Either way, I don't think they would be hugely interesting, as they would (and I don't normally say this about much in SC2) be literally an inferior in most aspects version of BW.
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I don't get why BW ZvZ isn't leading by a large margin. It's just so stupid to watch imo.
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On April 24 2012 00:03 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:57 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 23:54 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 23:45 MCDayC wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote:On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote:
I enjoy ZvZ SC2... I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ? I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less. So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ? Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad. Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
To be fair, normal ZvZ is better in SC2 than BW for the fact that it isn't muta/scourge wars. Its probably one of the only MU's that is actually an improvement though IMO.
Although hive tech ZvZ is always 1 million times better than the best SC2 ZvZ game.
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i think from what is was PvP in sc2 has really developed but it still my least favorite MU, you rarely see it get to a real macro late game standpoint. TvT both bw and sc2 i love, its awesome to see strategic usage of seige tank lines. ZvZ is a toss up for me, it can end eithe really short or go realy long
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as a spectator: TvT in both games. I know, I know, it's highly skilled and less coinflippy then other match-ups but as a non-terran player, it's so fucking boring.
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Oh the irony. So many people were so irritated over the events that the top 8 players were all Terran and we'd see the last several matches to be TvT but who in the world would want to see 4 zvz sets of bo3's/bo'5s and a grandfinal of zvz bo7 consecutively? Same goes for PvP. Lets face it, TvT is the most entertaining and exciting mirror match up in SC2, an opinion yes but the majority vote is in my favor Lol
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On April 23 2012 22:26 paralleluniverse wrote:
Hmm, my response is the complete opposite of the poll results.
Why all the love for TvT? I hate that matchup, it's just tanks and vikings.
And why all the hate for ZvZ? This is by far the best mirror. It's super intense, especially at the start with banelings.
Say what? Have you ever actually spectated a full TvT match or do you just close out the stream when you know a TvT is playing? Hello? TvT is the one single mirror match up that has the most diverse strategy approaches in sc2.
TvT isn't just tanks and vikings, granted yes some tvt matches do have that, but you can't count out marine tank medivac, doing drops and elevator tactics. Or full out mech tank viking hellion, or sky terran with banshee battle cruiser viking raven. Or how about just pure bio mobile marine marauder medivac? What makes it even more entertaining is the clash between each of these strategies and how one exploits their strengths and weaknesses to achieve their win.
Not only that but there are so many different openings to go about in TvT to just think of TvT as tank viking is so one dimensional and ignorant.
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In SC2 ZvZ is the best. I can absolutely understand that the players dislike playing it, but damn it provides good viewer entertainment. No other matchup swings back and forth as much, no other matchup can provide the same split-second events that decide the outcome of the game.
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There is going to be a big statistical bias because most people on the SC2 forums won't have played BW, and so will only vote for the SC2 ones (for either best or worst).
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PvP became dumb in sc2 because of warp gates
ZvZ became less dumb in sc2 because of larva inject
TvT is still TvT in sc2, but with less mech
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IMO for sc2:
Playing:
worst - PvP is just the worst this game has to offer. I can handle a game or two of ZvZ before I get annoyed. But I can't stand to play a single game of PvP without a little rage.
best - TvT. Hands down the best mirror to play, the other two aren't even close
Watching:
best - TvT, the best player usually wins in TvT and it can be very entertaining for all gamelengths.
worst - ZvZ, it's just terrible to watch. Like pvp it can snowball really fast early on and it gets incredibly boring when the games go long.
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EPT
