Joint BW/SC2 proleague airing on OGN is almost upon us! And most fans are at least a little apprehensive (understandably so) about what the format holds for the future of competitive Starcraft. Rather than argue about which game is better, I want to bring the communities together over one thing we can all agree on: our dislike of mirror matchups!
So I have a few questions I'd like to poll the community on regarding mirror matchups for both games, because we're going to be seeing our fair share. Everyone try to have fun with this -- there are other threads to discuss the format and the future of Starcraft.
(please only vote in the polls if you are familiar with both BW and SC2. I want the polls to be a true reflection of mirror matchup preference across the games)
I hate ZvZ in sc2 with a passion which making me transition into playing Terran atm. lol
Oh and.. you did post in the SC2 General forum section... so you'll most likely see more votes for sc2 because many won't even know what a PvP in BW was like.
A bit of a silly poll, alot of people have almost no experience with the BW mirror matchups. From the little I've seen, it goes SC2 PvP < BW ZvZ < SC2 ZvZ in terms spectator enjoyment. But I can't pretend to be an expert. TvT in both is amazing, BW in terms of strategic depth, SC2 in terms of how many options a player has, and both again in entertainment.
I think PvP in SC2 has evolved to a pretty interesting matchup not that its not 4gate vs 4gate all the time. Immortal play, archon/chargelot, dt's and even Phoenix play makes it pretty interesting to watch.
TvT in SC2 is only cool to watch when its bio vs. mech with lots of drop play. (MMA vs MVP anyone?) If its mech vs mech or marine/tank vs marine/tank its pretty boring.
I never minded any of the mirror matchups in BW unless it was like the 5th one in a row or something but I can't stand more than on PvP or ZvZ in SC2. The builds are just too similar most of the time and there's just so little positional back and forth that I don't find them as appealing as their BW counterparts.
On April 23 2012 16:13 SenorChang wrote: Hmm, you're not going to get objective results asking about BW in a Sc2 forums because people won't have enough experience to answer it.
There is no joint subforum for both games, so it has to go somewhere. I don't expect truly objective results (it's the internet) but I thought it would get more visibility in SC2, and from there the most I can do is *ask* that you only vote if you're familiar with both. Hopefully the results will still be interesting.
TvT: Entertainment value entirely dependent on the quality of player. 10/10 when between elite players, 5/10 when between average players, 2/10 when played by low level players. If the game is mass wraith instead of mass dropship take away 2 points, I hate that new style.
ZvZ: 3/10 if it's not a BO win, 0/10 if it's a BO win. Either way still the worst matchup in all professionally played RTS games
PvP: 5/10. Interesting at first glance but it's very SC2-ish with too many BO wins, not much defenders advantage, first battle deciding the outcome of the entire game, and deathball fights.
SC2: TvT: Has wavered quite a bit but right now I'd give it 6.5/10. Was a lot better back when pure mech was more viable. Not really a fan of all this marine tank business. Glad that mass air units endgame (think Boxer vs Rain) has been losing popularity at least. That was just awful, 40 minutes of boredom for a 10 second payoff so not worth it.
ZvZ and PvP: 3/10. Just meh matchups overall. Both are too volatile, not as much as commonly believed, but still too much for it to be considered a legitimate test of skill. Too many times it boils down to I have more roaches/colossus than you so I win.
I think you should specific whether you mean to play or to watch. For example, SC2 PvP is my least favourite mirror to watch but it's my favourite to play, SC2 TvT is the opposite.
Nothing beats BW TvT played at the highest level though.
On April 23 2012 16:15 Terranist wrote: anything was better than bw zvz.
In my opinion that depends a lot on if the poll means playing or watching. Playing ZvZ could be really stupid and watching ZvZ on anything else than korean progamer level was boring as well. However the ZvZs between korean progamers were the most intense matches overall. Usually these matches were pure back and forth micro battles and the matchup itself was extremely fragile which i found to be really interesting
On April 23 2012 16:26 red4ce wrote: ZvZ and PvP: 3/10. Just meh matchups overall. Both are too volatile, not as much as commonly believed, but still too much for it to be considered a legitimate test of skill. Too many times it boils down to I have more roaches/colossus than you so I win.
Honestly, at least PvP has gotten past the 4-gate era. I remember the first time I saw a colossi in pro PvP. It was pretty amazing, ngl. Some funny shenanigans can happen in PvP too (remember Ace vs. Seed(?) where they both went 2-immortal speed-prism drops and passed by each other like ships in the night?), so I'd bump that up to 4/10. Agree with everything else though.
Although ZvZ can be extremely frustrating, I find ZvZ to be my favorite mirror match. The hyper aggressive players make it even more awesome (despite the fact I still lose a lot of them).
I don't care what anyone says, TvT can be soooooooooo boring to watch. Playing it is fun though
For BW: TvT was meh, interesting to play but sometimes boring to watch. The good games were really fucking jawdropingly awesome. PvP was kinda bland, liked it more in the early days when it was lots of reaverplay. But when it came to tosswars on hunters (were korean clans that only played that, special rules and everything) it was as good as bw can be. Dragoon micro and oooh just so insanely enjoyable.
ZvZ is the mirror I enjoy the most out of all games. From gamebugs +1 ling to mutaplays and that tight feel. Cant really describe why I love this mu so much but I just do.
For SC2: TvT is better now, not as locked and more "ok" games. More like anyother mu in sc2.
PvP is really indefferent to me. Has not really fell for it but I dont dislike it.
ZvZ just sucks and I cant explain why, prolly the banelings and the roaches being slow to kill. ZvZ is just godawful and it sucks to be a zergplayer with this mu atleast 33% of your games.
I think SC2 ZvZ is much more interesting than BW ZvZ. I've only been watching BW for a year or so, but I get kinda bored with the one-base Spire play. I appreciate the micro, but the seeming lack of options in the match-up makes it dull IMO.
SC2 ZvZ is more interesting to me because of the various viable openings and tech transitions. Also, I'm a huge fan of ling/bling wars.
I think you need to keep the two games' polls separate, because the numbers aren't very meaningful with them all together. There is (sadly) a much larger population of people on TL who know SC2 but not BW than people who know both games.
How can people dislike PvP in sc2 more than ZvZ? PvP has evolved so much and is no longer 4 gate or build order wins(most of the time). Pros even say that the better player will win most of the games now so it isnt just random. ZvZ on the other hand can end with one lucky baneling hit and has tons of BO wins like DRG vs someone in the GSL last week.
On April 23 2012 17:11 densha wrote: I think SC2 ZvZ is much more interesting than BW ZvZ. I've only been watching BW for a year or so, but I get kinda bored with the one-base Spire play. I appreciate the micro, but the seeming lack of options in the match-up makes it dull IMO.
SC2 ZvZ is more interesting to me because of the various viable openings and tech transitions. Also, I'm a huge fan of ling/bling wars.
I agree, but BW hive tech ZvZ has resulted in some of the best games in history. I just wish Kespa would design maps that would promote it.
So ZvZ is the most disliked and 2nd most liked? Werd?
I think ZvZ is terrible to watch and play in both games. I feel like PvP is okay in BW, terrible in SC2 to play TvT has always been the most dynamic mirror match-up, but can end up being a long-drawn out snooze fest. However, get the right players and its the greatest thing ever.(FanTaSY vs Flash [BW] MVP vs TOP [SC2])
However, i think it would have been better to separate BW and SC2, as there are probably more people familiar with SC2 than BW and will vote for a SC2 MU.
On April 23 2012 16:20 Aunvilgod wrote: SC2 PvP has evolved A LOT. Today it is rather who-gets-more-colossus.
So basically... it's evolved from something crappy... to something even crappier.
Mass colossi vs. mass colossi is honestly about as dull as it gets. Even more depressing when you realize there's no real viable way to deviate from it, because every other tech path is so vastly inferior. There was recently a game between Grubby and White-Ra where White-Ra built a carrier to mix in with his army, and I loved him for it. But then he lost. Because he had less colossi.
Oh well. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, tripod robots gotta fire their lasers I guess.
High level zvz in bw is incredibly awesome to watch. But complete shit to play. High level zvz in sc2 is incredibly awesome ot play, but complete shit to watch. Interesting how that works.
On April 23 2012 17:25 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow this is really interesting
However, i think it would have been better to separate BW and SC2, as there are probably more people familiar with SC2 than BW and will vote for a SC2 MU.
I hope people that have no knowledge of one of the games refrain from voting.
I guess that to find the "best" mirror matchup you should look for one with a player that have significantly higher win % than his average after a signifinantly long time of pro level play.
PvP in SC2 is incredibly slow to me. I actually preferred the 4 gate vs 4 gate since the game was over quickly. Now we have to watch this build up until it's colossus vs colossus which takes forever and relies on the unit with possibly the worst design in the game. ZvZ isn't that volatile if you know how to play it correctly. The issue with pro players is that they never scout when doing economically greedy builds. If you scout an early pool when you 15 hatch you can cancel and get a pool up and have more drones to defend with. Early pool baneling builds might be the only things that can be complete build order wins. The matchup besides that can be really fun to watch...especially if one player goes mutas initially before switching into roach infestor.
TvT is the best mirror in SC2 due to the variability and generally safer styles. It's much like the other Terran matchups in that you can dictate the flow of the game with a more mobile bio style or zone out areas with mech while you build an army. Positioning is something that makes this matchup fun to watch as well. In PvP and ZvZ it's about the arc you can get with your units...TvT is more about setup and slow pushing to secure more of the map.
I get antsy playing ZvZ but TvT is way more fun and not as stressful due to the slower pace.
PvP BW was incredible! So many openers and follow ups were possible. Also the better player almost always won. The SC2 is an abomination in comparison.
This is strange. I think there's too many people who haven't played BW to actually give an accurate answer. You should have separated the two polls so people who played SC2 and not BW will only vote for SC2 ones.
But whatever. BW ZvZ can be crazy fun if it gets to hive tech. I guess TvT BW would be my favourite and the same for SC2.
Only reason i like TvT is because it seems the most "fair" and "balanced". ZvZ is the biggest pile of crap i have seen in my life. 1 miss click or going 15H can result in an insta loss, its crazy. PvP is very micro oriented but it still seems fairer than ZvZ. I do like a good PvP though.
I have played and watched very little BW, so I don't think I can comment on that...
As for SC2 - TvT is well thought-out IMO. Given that the Terran has so many options to open with (banshees with and w/o cloak, marine/hellion drop, even a reaper or two...), I think it's very interesting to watch, at least until mid-to-late game. I understand the beauty of positional battles and their strategic necessity, but often, it's not all that entetaining. Apart from that, I really like TvT for the variety.
ZvZ - I play zerg a bit, and it's very hectic and aggressive, kinda fun to play, although it's terrible to lose due to a tiny mistake (one baneling blast and you can pretty much gg out). If the game is good and both players have good control, it's fantastic to watch. Depends on the game really.
PvP - As a protoss player, I like a lot about it. The early and midgame are very interesting and kinda well thought out (Many options once again: 3 gate pressure, blink stalkers, immortal/warp prism drop, phoenix, DTs...), even though sometimes it turns to a BO win. But I tend to think that happens (or will happen) less and less. ... the BIG problem is the lategame. Colossi are, at least now, the only way to go, and having a fight decided by the number of collosi or by getting the first volley is kinda terrible. I really hope it evolves, somehow. I see a lot of potential, especially in Immortals and archons. Or we'll just have to wait for HotS, I guess.
I like all of them, in a way, but PvP and ZvZ really do depend on the game itself. There are brilliant PvP's, and terrible ones, as well as ZvZ's. TvT's is the most consistently interesting mirror.
TvT in both is at the top for mirrors guaranteed. BW TvT between good players is amazing to watch. It's like chess at 300+APM. Meanwhile SC2 the options available and the stability of the matchup make it pretty fun as well. I've seen probably a half dozen completely different openings in TvT this GSL season, all viable, which is just crazy. Hard to decide which one is better.
PvP is less BO orientated than before, but definitely below the highest level it's very hard to watch. It is the only matchup though where koreans regularly lose to foreigners, because the matchup is pretty shallow. I feel like BW PvP has a slight advantage though.
ZvZ is........good for the adrenaline junkies I guess. Not my cup of tea though. SC2 ZvZ though definitely makes for a better spectator experience though.
I'm surprised people hate SC2 ZvZ so much. Bar the build order wins, its pretty good. Ling bling is so much fun to watch, and when between 2 good players roach wars can be amazing, see something like Stephano vs Nestea G2 on Antiga in IPL. Burrow movement leads to loads of multitasking and attacking from different angles. I can see the appeal of BW ZvZ, on the one hand, their is loads of micro, and its super intense, but on the other hand.... its literally retarded. Like, weird and stupid to an un believable degree. PvP in BW is miles better than in SC2, but still pretty can dumb, but at least SC2 PvP is improving, just extremely slowly. Occasionally we get vaguely decent games, and thats nice. TvT in both is very cool, I like SC2 TvT, and the really really high level TvTs in BW are some of the best matches in both games. Below that it can be kinda dull, but still very skill based and generally good.
On April 23 2012 19:02 MCDayC wrote: I'm surprised people hate BW ZvZ so much. Bar the build order wins, its pretty good. Scourge muta is so much fun to watch, and when between 2 good players high tech wars can be amazing, see something like Jaedong vs YellOw on Match Point in SPL. Plague leads to loads of multitasking and attacking from different angles. I can see the appeal of SC2 ZvZ, on the one hand, their is loads of micro, and its super intense, but on the other hand.... its literally retarded. Like, weird and stupid to an un believable degree.
Am i doing it right? Both ZvZs are retarded both to play and watch below top level.
I like all matchups and all of them can show great games, i've seen 1 hour long TvT's with almost no action that sucked and others that were full of action, drops, siege lines, air terran that were great!
ZvZ, PvP and TvT can all be great but sometimes they are not.. same with the other matchups imo
Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups.
On April 23 2012 19:50 Adonminus wrote: Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups.
Sure, a lot of different strategies, but all rock paper scissors.
SC2 TvT >= BW TvT - TvT SC2 generally has less boring tank lines and more action due to bio viability. SC2 PvP < BW PvP - PvP in BW is exciting with reavers, storms, and lots of action. PvP in SC2 is only decent if blink wars happen. SC2 ZvZ >= BW ZvZ - Both are terrible, SC2 is only sometimes better because I think ling/bling into roach/infestor is more exciting then ling into muta/scourge.
On April 23 2012 19:50 Adonminus wrote: Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups.
TvT is far and away the best mirror in sc2. PvP is two blindfolded guys flipping coins that ends in either an all-in or collossus wars. Having to PvP 1/3 of your ladder games is literally the worst thing about picking toss.
TvT is best in SC2(though it sucks playing it) and from limited viewing in BW, it seems the best too.
For SC2, ZvZ is just either to slow or fast paced. When the game is slow paced and is all about them fungals, it's just plain boring. When it's fast paced, it can be hard for people(and esp. non-zergs obv) to understand the strategy behind the players actions. Infact I feel it's kind of rare that a commentator truly understands what's planned, atleast a shitton of ZvZ's tend to be cast as a straight up play-by-play
PvP has evolved a lot. I still feel it's a bit to unforgiving and lategame is normally pretty dull. In midgame though, it can be quite brilliant.
On April 23 2012 19:50 Adonminus wrote: Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups.
TvT is far and away the best mirror in sc2. PvP is two blindfolded guys flipping coins that ends in either an all-in or collossus wars. Having to PvP 1/3 of your ladder games is literally the worst thing about picking toss.
I think you are doing it wrong... there is really no resson to feel blind in PvP. ANd if you aren't blind you won't be fliping coins either. TDLR: Scout more and better.
I think it's quite close overall. BW ZvZ i dislike most, too aggressive and narrow. SC2 ZvZ is close though and together they are the worst matchups in both games imo. PvP is better in BW, in sc2 it's fine now except the endgame colossi wars are boring and too coinflippy (randomly have a bad formation on your colossi and you've lost..) TvT i like slightly more in sc2, it's a bit too slow in BW for my liking but it's really close and i can understand many prefer the BW variant.
I like to watch TvT the most and I don't like watching PvP. I enjoy playing PvP more than TvT though, ZvZ is too unstable for me to enjoy watching or playing
On April 23 2012 16:15 Terranist wrote: anything was better than bw zvz.
WOW, I absolutely disagree, it has proven to be pretty darn exciting what with the recent KT zerg spree and all. BW TvT is just extremely boring because it's just so slow and difficult to gain a decisive advantage, the only matchup where I prefer SC2's mirror.
TvT in broodwar takes some serious skill to play it out well in to the late game . I used to hate it but after playing and understand what's my strength and weakness . It has become one of my favourite match up playing as a terran . Also I don't know what's the hate for ZvZ . The match is so intense with players battling out with early zerglings and muta how could people hate it .
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
Its mostly infestor roach/hydra roach, some players like to go muta but its the minority. Also ppl tend to go muta often if ling bling takes very long or they are behind.
ZvZ is like the best thing about SC2 in comparison to BW. I hate BW ZvZ so much. All the other mirrors in both games are completely fine for me.
I like ZvZ in SC2 as well as PvP. Both are really interesting, where ZvZ has potentially a lot of micro early on and then has a lot of things that can happen throughout the later stages, and PvP is a lot about build selection and reaction to the opponent, and micro as well, in the early game. Later PvP isn't very figured out so I'm always excited to watch it and see what new stuff comes up if it's a longer game.
I think also watching SotG there has been a ton of discussion of PvP and the different builds and how they work with each other, since they always have so many tosses on the show, so I've always known a lot about PvP early game and my Gateway unit micro has always been pretty good for my level so I've had a lot of success in the matchup as well.
TvT is of course great. There are different unit compositions that are viable on different maps. You can make a lot out of the terrain setup, which is cool, especially as a map maker, and there's a lot of positioning. TvTs that are marine-tank based for both players are probably the most interesting for me, and I hope that remains viable in the future, but generally I like the variety of having bio, marine-tank and mech all as options, and how they all have different levels of muscle and mobility and are all quite positional in different ways.
Generally I love all three mirrors in SC2, they might be my top 3 matchups overall even. I like the simplicity, and something about a mirror really is fun for me.
I never played BW so I don't know anything regarding their mirror matchups. But I think PvP SC2 is turning into something good atm, don't understand why people aren't thinking the same. Before it was shit yes, but now it's a completely different matchup.
Honestly, ZvZ isn't too far off from TvT these days imo. The return of Bio made that MU so much less interesting. ZvZ can even be better if both players opt for the ling/bane/muta route. Then the action is just so fast paced and tense. Nerchio vs Monster at Dreamhack yesterday was a good example. MU still lacks some stability though
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
On April 23 2012 19:50 Adonminus wrote: Never say PvP is crap in sc2. It's the best mirror in sc2 imo, unlike the other mirrors, you can actually open with 5 different strategies and much more different variations of it. You see stargate, council and robo tech, and almost every unit is used in this mirror. Actually the danger of the all in in the early game, makes this pvp even more interesting as you don't simply sit on 2 bases and turtle like protoss does in many other match ups.
TvT is far and away the best mirror in sc2. PvP is two blindfolded guys flipping coins that ends in either an all-in or collossus wars. Having to PvP 1/3 of your ladder games is literally the worst thing about picking toss.
I enjoy PvPs because I can secure a win if I do everything right. There's no coinflipping, you sir don't know anything about PvP. I would enjoy playing 100% pvp on ladder
I think you can really only enjoy watching a mirror of the race you main. and even then its debatable. To that end BW ZvZ was/is my favorite mirror MU. Not just for the game play, but also the game length!
Also I think we can all agree that on those 1/10,000 BW ZvZs where nether player manages to die during the muta stage of the game. Then the shit hits the fan or plaguuuu hits the mutas!
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
Not that I can remember, sorry, maybe some Nestea games, but I can't think of any off the top of my head, and I usually have a pretty decent memory if the game is so distinctive. Either way, I don't think they would be hugely interesting, as they would (and I don't normally say this about much in SC2) be literally an inferior in most aspects version of BW.
On April 23 2012 22:53 Trevoc wrote: I enjoy ZvZ SC2...
I am curious in sc2 ZvZ do you guys use muta to out micro your opponents and gain advantage ?
I would guess the closest equivalent would would be ling baneling micro, where you have lings trying to snipe banelings, and the banelings are trying to land huge detonations on the zergling. But apart from that it plays out completely differently to BW, as you can move on from the micro intensive Ling Bling stage to a a more stable roach wars game. When played between 2 good people roach wars actually really fun to watch, as you exploit Zergs lack of detection and fragile detectors to out multitask your opponent with moving burrowed roaches to harass of expansions (as I said earlier in this thread, watch Stephano vs Nestea IPL4 G2 on Antiga Shipyard). The only real problem with the matchup imo is the large amount of bild order wins, after that its fun (some times even when played out terribly, see Forsen vs Hyun I believe G3 at Dreamhack on Antiga, one of the shittier games I have ever seen, but entertaining none the less.
So basically there is no muta wars in sc2 ?
Very very very occasionally, and I don;t think they would be good to watch at all, Scourge is part of what makes that good, and SC2 doesn't have Scourge, which makes me, and pretty much everyone else in the world, sad.
Is there any vods where both Zergs go for mass muta and try to kill each other with just micro ?
To be fair, normal ZvZ is better in SC2 than BW for the fact that it isn't muta/scourge wars. Its probably one of the only MU's that is actually an improvement though IMO.
Although hive tech ZvZ is always 1 million times better than the best SC2 ZvZ game.
i think from what is was PvP in sc2 has really developed but it still my least favorite MU, you rarely see it get to a real macro late game standpoint. TvT both bw and sc2 i love, its awesome to see strategic usage of seige tank lines. ZvZ is a toss up for me, it can end eithe really short or go realy long
as a spectator: TvT in both games. I know, I know, it's highly skilled and less coinflippy then other match-ups but as a non-terran player, it's so fucking boring.
Oh the irony. So many people were so irritated over the events that the top 8 players were all Terran and we'd see the last several matches to be TvT but who in the world would want to see 4 zvz sets of bo3's/bo'5s and a grandfinal of zvz bo7 consecutively? Same goes for PvP. Lets face it, TvT is the most entertaining and exciting mirror match up in SC2, an opinion yes but the majority vote is in my favor Lol
On April 23 2012 22:26 paralleluniverse wrote: Hmm, my response is the complete opposite of the poll results.
Why all the love for TvT? I hate that matchup, it's just tanks and vikings.
And why all the hate for ZvZ? This is by far the best mirror. It's super intense, especially at the start with banelings.
Say what? Have you ever actually spectated a full TvT match or do you just close out the stream when you know a TvT is playing? Hello? TvT is the one single mirror match up that has the most diverse strategy approaches in sc2.
TvT isn't just tanks and vikings, granted yes some tvt matches do have that, but you can't count out marine tank medivac, doing drops and elevator tactics. Or full out mech tank viking hellion, or sky terran with banshee battle cruiser viking raven. Or how about just pure bio mobile marine marauder medivac? What makes it even more entertaining is the clash between each of these strategies and how one exploits their strengths and weaknesses to achieve their win.
Not only that but there are so many different openings to go about in TvT to just think of TvT as tank viking is so one dimensional and ignorant.
In SC2 ZvZ is the best. I can absolutely understand that the players dislike playing it, but damn it provides good viewer entertainment. No other matchup swings back and forth as much, no other matchup can provide the same split-second events that decide the outcome of the game.
There is going to be a big statistical bias because most people on the SC2 forums won't have played BW, and so will only vote for the SC2 ones (for either best or worst).
Playing: worst - PvP is just the worst this game has to offer. I can handle a game or two of ZvZ before I get annoyed. But I can't stand to play a single game of PvP without a little rage.
best - TvT. Hands down the best mirror to play, the other two aren't even close
Watching: best - TvT, the best player usually wins in TvT and it can be very entertaining for all gamelengths.
worst - ZvZ, it's just terrible to watch. Like pvp it can snowball really fast early on and it gets incredibly boring when the games go long.
BW: PvP: Its so amazing to play & watch ie reavers/templars, but when it gets to an even mid game. Some games are BO wins TvT: ITs a really good match up when the players are really good. ZvZ: Even though it feels a bit weird, i think zvz displays a lot of skill in muta/ling/scourge micro,i am always impressed by the amount of micro it takes. SC2: TvT: by far the best mirror match up of SC2, so many possibilities, openings, few BO wins. PvP: I think this is the worst match up, but its getting better little by little ZvZ: Its a good match up, i think its fun most of the times, but it is also coinflip so, for me
I normally take a break whenever there's a ZvZ in BW. Though that's partly due to being a T1 fan as well as the matchup itself being silly.
SC2's mirrors have evolved fine, relative to other matchups that is. I feel like there's a fair bit of unjust labeling people make out of habit when it comes to PvP and ZvZ because of how they were played several months ago.
By far my most hated/boring matchup in both games right now is SC2's PvZ (unless Hero is playing it).
SC2 PvP kinda reminds me of a more volatile, more boring version of BW PvP. Imagine BW PvP but without Psi Storm and with Reavers being replaced by a much less exciting unit with no harassment role. Oh, and Warp Gate makes one-base all-ins much more viable. However, Blink is an improvement over BW PvP, especially since it raises the skill ceiling for Stalker control now that pathing has improved since the days of retarded Dragoons.
When SC2 TvT gets positional, it becomes amazing. However, nowadays I see a lot of marine-tank action on quite a few of the maps, which is a somewhat volatile playstyle that doesn't have much of the meticulous positional play that I would like to see from BW TvT or some games of SC2 TvT. However, this is very much map-dependent, as marine-tank is more viable on maps like Antiga while a map like Crossfire or Daybreak promotes much more positional play, or perhaps even mech.
I don't like BW ZvZ in most cases. I like it when I'm emotionally involved with the players or teams, when it involves some very unique play or situation, or when it goes into Hive tech. Ling-bane wars are really entertaining and intense to watch, though sometimes I don't like this volatility when it kills off my favorite player. Mid-game tends to be a war of macro, positioning, and tech timings with mass Roaches mixed in with other stuff, which I find to be more cerebral and interesting than always watching very similar muta-scourge wars every game. But that is just personal preference.
On April 23 2012 16:15 Terranist wrote: anything was better than bw zvz.
WOW, I absolutely disagree, it has proven to be pretty darn exciting what with the recent KT zerg spree and all. BW TvT is just extremely boring because it's just so slow and difficult to gain a decisive advantage, the only matchup where I prefer SC2's mirror.
yeah but in tvt they make more than 15 workers and it doesnt devolve into wc3.
PvP is by far the boringest match up followed by PvZ. Protoss just seems like a plain and boring race in general. PvT is fine because it has Terran in it, and who doesn't love terran? :p
ZvZ in Broodwar is the best mirror match to watch live but sucks the most if you watch a VOD of it. Simply because the environment is so tense that anything can happen and when your cheering for your team, you will be the on the edge of your seat. It really keeps my heart pumping extra fast in those few minutes.
PvP in SC2 is arguably worst mirror match to watch, live or VOD. It just simply does not tickle my fancy tbh.
TvT in sc2 can be extremely exciting as boring... some banshee hardcounter build ruins the game completely. almost as hard as ZvZ, I agree with one before me, gamers tend to not scouting in mirrors and get a 'bo loss'.
SC2 PvP is sooooo Fooking bad and pathetic once it reaches mid/late game. Basically turns into a mass colossus stand off and the battle from an observer POV will be like WTF just happened...
Oh, my favorites have to be TvT in both SC2 and BW. SC2 offers interesting contains and the always fun Bio-vs-Mech match-ups which add variety. BW has a great refinement to it, however that puts it above any other mirror match-up, it plays out very intensely while simultaneously not forcing a game to end in case a single siege line is penetrated. BW additionally, due to longer game times, allowed for a lot of very exciting tech choices to come out of the match-up, so despite both players being the same race the endgame has a fresh feel to it each match.
PvP as a player is absolutely terrible. Being as shallow as it is means there isn't much room to outplay an inferior player, and that combined with WG and coinflip openers means that you constantly dread playing it in a tournament environment. It's the main reason that I switched to Terran. If both players survive the early game, it becomes incredibly slow paced as the potential for harass is very limited due to WG and blink from both sides, and neither player wanting to attack because of a -1 colossus disadvantage.
ZvZ is awesome to watch (early game), though I suspect terrible to play. Ling bane wars as a spectator are action packed and keep you on the edge of your seat because the advantage can switch at the drop of a hat, but once the game devolves into mass roach/infestor it gets boring quickly.
TvT was always a mixed bag for me, until I started playing the race. It's the most skill based of all 3 matchups, and while some games can drag on the amount of positioning and strategy involved in the matchup makes it incredibly exciting to both play and watch.
My favourite mirror to play and to watch is ZvZ bw. The game is so intense, and really gets the adrenaline going. Also, as a zerg bw player, it was my best matchup on iccup by a significant margin, so that probably biased my opinion. I also enjoy playing PvP in both bw and SC2, and enjoy watching TvT in both games (although some variety in the GSL was needed for a while ><)
My least favourite mirror to play is TvT bw, mostly because I played Terran so little then, and had no idea what I was doing. My least favourite mirror to watch would be PvP in SC2. ZvZ in SC2 is also pretty bad imo.
For me I hate TvT in SC2 because it's so much about drawn out siege tank line snore-fests, though ocassionally has some innovative play. PvP and ZvZ may be more coinflip but at least they re micro intensive and tend to be short and sweet, plus you can see some cool upsets.
In BW I really hate ZvZ, it's just plain yuck, while pretty much every other matchup has at least had some great games going on. I haven't watched a lot of pro BW though, mostly just play with my brothers.
Anyone who has seen BW ZvZ would agree that it belongs at the top of this list. After that I would say only aweful mirrors in either games are sc2 PvP then 3rd would go to SC2 ZvZ. Best is more of an aquired taste but for some reason I have really fallen for SC2 TvT.
On April 24 2012 16:21 rinzz wrote: TvT ?! rly.....how u can like Tanks Tetris......
In all of sc2 I would say that TvT is the one matchup where from start to finish you HAVE to play perfect(or as close as you can to it) or you risk giving up a lead to your opponent. It is the matchup where if you can get one good position than you can overcome some big deficits.
I think these days the tank viking wars are much much less common. Most of the complaints about tvt these days are based off of how tvt was played like half a year ago. I think it's exciting because positioning is so crucial, and it makes it interesting to see how players use/side step watch tower vision.
I play Random and I hate all three mirrors with a passion, most of the time I just 6 pool/canon rush or often times I simply just leave the game right away. From a viewing standpoint I even enjoy watching a mirror from time to time, first game Nerchio vs Monster at DH was great for example. TvT is kinda ok to watch mostly, only Mech vs Mech can be pretty boring. PvP is my least favorite MU to watch I guess, but if you have pros like Grubby or HasuObs casting a PvP it becomes quite interessting all of a sudden, because they point out all the mindgames that are going on. I didn't play 1on1 enough in BW to compare them, but just from watching ZvZ seemed to be the worst there.
On April 23 2012 17:44 Odal wrote: High level zvz in bw is incredibly awesome to watch. But complete shit to play. High level zvz in sc2 is incredibly awesome ot play, but complete shit to watch. Interesting how that works.
I don’t know about that, for me zvz in bw is super fun the every second in a zvz u are scanning at the mini map keeping ur lings in control (hold position on a ramp or setting up a run by) then it’s this TINY special awesome window where ur spire goes up and u dont die to some mass ling attack, u enter a whole new world! the muta micro is hard and fun, not because u just fly around and micro them, but doing that while managing ur base (not dying to runbys)
I’m not high level but I enjoy it a lot it just feels like every second counts
I dislike PvP sc2. I dislike how there's little to no macro game because of the power of a 4 gate, and no intense micro like you see muta scourge lings or ling banelings in ZvZ's, making it uninteresting to watch.
I LOVE the new TvT in sc2 though, I love how dynamic it has become, potentially with potential for the use of so many different units and everything from short micro intensive games to longer macro style games.
I don't think Sc2's mirror matchups are really that bad. PvP has caused some headaches but the state it is in right now is actually pretty dynamic. TvT has always been a fine matchup and preventing it from being a 2 hour tank line stand off is basically dependent on map makers not letting that happen. ZvZ can be both boring and highly exciting to watch. Playing it is another story it can be really frustrating and stressful and unforgiving but it's not broken by any means maybe Heart of the Swarm can add something to the table here.
Banelings and fungal makes ZvZ SC2 way too damn painful and unforgiving. PvP SC2 is like ZvZ but a lot slower and everything's chunkier. For some reason I like it the more. But it's only for the micro. All the mirrors are terrible MU for macro games imo.
I suck at TvT. My tanks are always sieged/unsieged at the wrong time.
Maybe I'm one of the really small number of people that like ZvZ in SC2. Yes, the baneling wars are really unforgiving and it is frustrating to play, but it is really exciting to watch. Also when you get past that phase the game becomes really interesting. This is my favorite mirror in SC2. My least favorite is the SC2's PvP... Colossus wars are not my favorite thing I guess. For BW... PvP is my favorite. The "two players throwing imbalanced shit against each other" aspect excites me ZvZ looks interesting, but I've never played it. TvT is my least favorite. Unless it is Flash vs Fantasy or something like that, it's kinda hard for me to stay awake watching that match-up.
I've been playing Protoss up until recently, but having a PvP after PvP made me hate playing the game so much that I just had to switch to Terran. TvT, while not my favourite matchup is my favourite mirror (especially to watch) and it is fairly enjoyable for me. I don't really have any experience playing 1v1 in BW so I can't really comment on that.
PvP and ZvZ equaly dumb shit. If it makes it past a volatile early game it's just two armies of simple units brute forcing against each other and the winner of the big fight takes the game.
I find PvP in SC2 the least entertaining to play and to watch. Well, I don't play a lot of SC2, but watching, yeah, PvP in SC2 is usually meh. Warp gates, blink micro, gg.
Favourite mirror is TvT in BW, it's an amazing game with push-and-pull, clever positioning, doom drops, tech switches (wraith surprise!), careful tank range ruler-measuring (that's what the Korean commentators say), armory sniping, and sometimes even BC's. It's true a lot of TvT's go the distance, lasting 30 minutes or longer, but I find it worth it most of the time.
SC2 ZvZ is pretty good, I'm very surprised it's top, it's very hard and is very volatile and easy to lose on one mistake but it can be pretty fun and takes a lot of skill if you end up playing roach infestor vs roach infestor. I guess there is always the ling baneling all in into muta route for people who want to play it the easy way, but that doesn't make it a bad match up. PvP sc2 is my most disliked match up though, although I never played BW.
On April 26 2012 01:50 Indolent wrote: How come SC2 ZvZ is disliked more than BW one? Sure it's tough MU but it evolved so much since BW. Blizzard did great job with adding variety to it.
Its because alot of people voting have never seen BW ZvZ so they are voting on what they know. I've never seen a BW ZvZ but I've heard enough about it to know that it was pretty bad. And that Jaedong could make 5 mutalisks kill ten or something crazy like that.
Lots of sc2 zerg players hate zvz cos they suck at the matchup and seems completely random and volatile. In actual fact, you get easy scouting (aside from scouting 9 pool, 14/14 or hatch first) thanks to speedlings which is great.
PvP is the true shit hole here. Once it gets past the build order roulette stage, it either goes into making blink stalkers mode or colossi wars. I like watching 1 base blink vs 1 base blink but colossi wars is simply awful. You can't even scout your opponent's composition and you literally camp around the whole time. BW PvP had death balling too, but reavers and storm made that pretty cool. Colossi literally are the most boring unit in the game. Lets say I like watching Huk PvP instead of Hasuobs PvP.
TvT is always great, be it marineking vs Heart style or Mvp vs TOP style.
On April 23 2012 22:26 paralleluniverse wrote: Hmm, my response is the complete opposite of the poll results.
Why all the love for TvT? I hate that matchup, it's just tanks and vikings.
And why all the hate for ZvZ? This is by far the best mirror. It's super intense, especially at the start with banelings.
There's a lot more to a game of StarCraft than just micro. ZvZ and PvP tend to be less interesting to people with appreciation for play that involves large-scale game management. ZvZ is disliked in BW for this reason. It's pretty much stuck on super low econ micro wars, which is a stunted version of what SC can be. ZvZ in SC2 is better but still not that good.
On April 26 2012 02:41 Snuggles wrote: BW TvT is horrendous, I was really glad to see SC2 TvT have such an improvement. BW PvP is pretty painful too but still leagues better SC2 PvP.
Are you kidding me? Maye you dont like to watch, ok. But strategy? BW tvt has amazing strategic depth, it is the one most true indicator of a player's chess capabilities of any RTS game.
BW ZvZ can be painful to watch, but many people don't realize the inhuman amounts of micro required to successful in the matchup; muta stacking, scourge dodging, muta split, and deciding when and when not to build lings for runby.
This isn't to say SC2 ling/bling doesn't require micro .. but I'm not a fan of baneling splash being so unforgiving when you can lose almost your entire army to 1 or 2 blings. Lets not even discuss roach v roach.
On April 26 2012 02:55 a176 wrote: BW ZvZ can be painful to watch, but many people don't realize the inhuman amounts of micro required to successful in the matchup; muta stacking, scourge dodging, muta split, and deciding when and when not to build lings for runby.
This isn't to say SC2 ling/bling doesn't require micro .. but I'm not a fan of baneling splash being so unforgiving when you can lose almost your entire army to 1 or 2 blings. Lets not even discuss roach v roach.
The problem is ZvZ is so hard to understand and beginners don't know what to look for and think it is all just micro. ZvZ can be very interesting strategically once you understand some of it.
If the 2nd Overlords meet in the center of the map, then both can be assured that the other didn’t go a build where you get a 2nd Overlord late, such as a 9Pool, and can be freed of the burden of an early ling attack. Therefore, you can produce more Drones and play more economically. After the first Overlords meet, if the opponent’s 2nd Overlord is late, then that means your opponent went 9Pool. If the timing of your 2nd Overlord and his 2nd Overlord is about the same, then you can determine he didn’t go 9Pool. However, some manipulate this fact and deliberately send their 2nd overlord later than usual and make the opponent think that he went 9Pool. So, you can see how in ZvZ the psychological warfare and the fight to see your opponent’s build order can be shown by just this example of the 2nd Overlords.
My experience is limited to sc2, unfortunately, if only I'd paid attention when I was younger to sc:bw!
Anyway, I actually enjoy all the mirrors except tvt, but that's only because I don't understand it. Otherwise, I find pvp to be a clash of the titans, so to speak and zvz to be the most ridiculous snafu that I can't seem to hate...
On April 23 2012 16:15 Terranist wrote: anything was better than bw zvz.
Am I surprised your name is Terranist?
Anything was better than bw TvT. 40 plus minutes of tanks sieging back and forth. Oh, here come the wraiths, I have goliaths!
You probably hate playing Chess in real life and if you don't then you haven't played anyone who is good and makes you look like a fool. BW TvT was deep and any one mistake in faulty positioning could cost you the entire game. The stress you have when playing BW TvT is far higher then the stress you see in any SC2 matchup.
My favorite mirror matchup (as a random player) by far is TvT, both in BW and SC2. Though I really prefer BW TvT over its SC2 counterpart, there doesn't seem to be any matchup that comes close to the enjoyment and satisfaction I get from winning a gg in such a matchup. Possibly PvP in BW, but none of the SC2 matchups come anywhere close, in my opinion
BW TvT SC2 TvT BW PvP BW ZvZ SC2 ZvZ SC2 PvP
Maybe I just don't get PvP in SC2, but it certainly is the least enjoyable mirror in this game to me. I like to play a game in which I genuinely feel like I was the better player, anything below that feels sub-par. A win is nothing; a game in which you display your superiority over your opponent and have the ability to learn from it is what is important to me.
EPT
