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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
On March 27 2012 00:10 finale23 wrote:
It's official, BW will be eliminated by the end of the year. Jaedong and Flash will compete in SC2 GSL by year end. I'm so excited!!!! It's the best thing ever happened to esport since BW was created.
how do you know that? I didn't follow the whole thread, sorry.
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On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them.
What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten.
Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL.
What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive.
And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and they're just some niche company...
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On March 25 2012 02:18 lottopk wrote:
Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post
Out of curiousity, why was he warned? This seems like a valid opinion even if it is highly arguable.
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On March 27 2012 02:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them. What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten. Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL. What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive. And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and their just some niche company... '
Strongly agree... Blizzard has spent the past 5 years trying to trash Kespa. Granted Kespa isn't god or anything, but they have NO MONEY compared to Activision Blizzard, which is probably rolling in cash. Bobby Kintcock has one goal, and thats to please shareholders (aka make more money). The old Blizzard released BW for FREE. Do you think Kintcock is even going to give you an expansion for a discount off the original price? Nope, your probably going to pay extra for a game that's marketed as a seperate game, but is merely an expansion.
Blizzard has changed, and its not surprising - shareholders must be pleased, or the CEO gets booted. That's the way life is.
As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course)
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On March 27 2012 02:37 Azure Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:15 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:02 Azure Sky wrote:On March 27 2012 00:10 finale23 wrote:It's official, BW will be eliminated by the end of the year.  Jaedong and  Flash will compete in SC2 GSL by year end. I'm so excited!!!! It's the best thing ever happened to esport since BW was created. The problem I have with an attitude like this is that it doesn't take into account the futures of all the current Brood War progamers. When I say that, I'm not worried about Flash, Jaedong,  Bisu, and other similar players who have been making a fairly high salary these past few years along with tournament prize money. They're going to be fine no matter what happens. I'm worried about the middling A-team players like PerfectMan who spent five months doing manual labour because his team disbanded and he had no other skills, education, nor padded bank account to fall back on. The vast majority of Korean progamers drop out of high school in order to commit themselves to Brood War and because of that they lack the ability to easily find some other career. It just seems so wrong to me to say "Starcraft 1 dying is a good thing" because that means that a lot of young people are going to lose their jobs. It's a risk they should have known existed, and a risk that exists even if the game doesn't lose popularity. I used to play fairly serious hockey. 3-5 hours a day were spent training on or off the ice, from ages 14 to 19. I never made it out of amateur hockey, but had a shit ton of fun and played at one of the higher amateur levels you can play in Canada. I didn't let my studies slack though, because I knew the risk and the chances of making a liveable career out of the game. There's a huge difference between somebody who plays at an amateur level for fun and somebody who is on a professional team, under contract, earning a salary, and playing in televised matches. These are players who are making a livable career out of the game and are faced with that potentially vanishing. I guess that doesn't bother you any but I think it's sad to see.
As opposed to a hockey player in a AHL (semi-pro) who just makes enough to live on, and then gets a career-ending injury?
Or a CFL player in the same situation? There are many professional athletes who don't get paid enough to pad their bank accounts. They should know there's risk that any day, they could lose the ability to play through injury, inside or outside of the game.
Hockey was a bad example. Top players go from being 17 and not paid a cent, to million dollar contracts. The effort is the same though. Players dedicate years of their lives to the game with an extremely small chance they'll make any money at all. They put up with that huge risk because they love the game, and because in the small chance they have what it takes, it pays off big.
If you choose to say that their experiences were a waste, then know it's only your opinion. Most play because they love the game, and if they don't they're either born to do it or destined to fail. If they can make a living playing a game they love, they should consider themselves extremely lucky. Making a career choice without knowing the risks involved is a dangerous thing, and they won't get my pity if they didn't know they were in a potentially volatile career. If he chose to invest his time into skills that don't translate well outside of a narrow career path, then we should respect his decision.
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If you actually read the thread you would get an idea of why.
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On March 27 2012 02:57 [Azn]Nada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:46 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them. What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten. Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL. What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive. And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and their just some niche company... ' Strongly agree... Blizzard has spent the past 5 years trying to trash Kespa. Granted Kespa isn't god or anything, but they have NO MONEY compared to Activision Blizzard, which is probably rolling in cash. Bobby Kintcock has one goal, and thats to please shareholders (aka make more money). The old Blizzard released BW for FREE. Do you think Kintcock is even going to give you an expansion for a discount off the original price? Nope, your probably going to pay extra for a game that's marketed as a seperate game, but is merely an expansion. Blizzard has changed, and its not surprising - shareholders must be pleased, or the CEO gets booted. That's the way life is. As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course)
From the looks of things we will likely to go down the path of Call of Duty franchise and it's modern warfare churning out new expansion pack and new Starcraft sequel to keep the money flowing in to Blizzard shareholders and friends .
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On March 27 2012 03:04 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:57 [Azn]Nada wrote:On March 27 2012 02:46 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them. What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten. Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL. What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive. And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and their just some niche company... ' Strongly agree... Blizzard has spent the past 5 years trying to trash Kespa. Granted Kespa isn't god or anything, but they have NO MONEY compared to Activision Blizzard, which is probably rolling in cash. Bobby Kintcock has one goal, and thats to please shareholders (aka make more money). The old Blizzard released BW for FREE. Do you think Kintcock is even going to give you an expansion for a discount off the original price? Nope, your probably going to pay extra for a game that's marketed as a seperate game, but is merely an expansion. Blizzard has changed, and its not surprising - shareholders must be pleased, or the CEO gets booted. That's the way life is. As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course) From the looks of things we will likely to go down the path of Call of Duty franchise and it's modern warfare churning out new expansion pack and new Starcraft sequel to keep the money flowing in to Blizzard shareholders and friends .
The game's been out for over a year and a half, and it doesn't look like the expansion is coming for at least another year. You couldn't get less CoD-ish if you tried
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On March 27 2012 03:13 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:04 Sawamura wrote:On March 27 2012 02:57 [Azn]Nada wrote:On March 27 2012 02:46 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them. What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten. Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL. What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive. And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and their just some niche company... ' Strongly agree... Blizzard has spent the past 5 years trying to trash Kespa. Granted Kespa isn't god or anything, but they have NO MONEY compared to Activision Blizzard, which is probably rolling in cash. Bobby Kintcock has one goal, and thats to please shareholders (aka make more money). The old Blizzard released BW for FREE. Do you think Kintcock is even going to give you an expansion for a discount off the original price? Nope, your probably going to pay extra for a game that's marketed as a seperate game, but is merely an expansion. Blizzard has changed, and its not surprising - shareholders must be pleased, or the CEO gets booted. That's the way life is. As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course) From the looks of things we will likely to go down the path of Call of Duty franchise and it's modern warfare churning out new expansion pack and new Starcraft sequel to keep the money flowing in to Blizzard shareholders and friends . The game's been out for over a year and a half, and it doesn't look like the expansion is coming for at least another year. You couldn't get less CoD-ish if you tried
Also its been said numerous times that the game will be priced like an expansion.
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On March 27 2012 02:57 [Azn]Nada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 02:46 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 02:30 discomatt wrote:On March 27 2012 02:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 27 2012 01:56 finale23 wrote:
"It's dead, Jim. Let it go." BW has been one of the most entertaining, well balanced games in history, but it didn't start out that way. Blizzard diligently patched and balanced it over the year and made it into the perfect game you and i have become accustomed to. Also the level of competition in BW today is lightyears ahead of what it was when proleague first started. the revered boxer back in his heyday would have got nothing on jaedong and flash. my point is that BW has evolved over the years and so have the players and the level of competition. in order for SC2 to follow suit and grow into as polished of a game as BW, BW would have to go. some people compared BW to baseball, but you're probably too young to remember that even baseball had some significant rule changes that divided baseball history into different eras. plus, they aren't really the same thing, the graphic in baseball can't really get any better and there are no new units. SC2 is still a work in process with at least 2 expansions, and blizzard is pretty attentive to what fans want (barring the LAN issue). you should really give blizzard and sc2 a chance. BW's balance was a total fluke. Releasing a bunch of patches is not really dilligent patching. Sure, they had good support compared to their competition, but that's just because their competition was so appalling. It was a fluke, because Blizzard has proven it times and times again with their stupid design/balance decisions in WC3 and SC2, BNet "2.0" design and countless interviews showing their ignorance. You have to be joking when you say Blizzard is attentive to their fans. Where are proper chats and chat functions? Online replays? Proper custom games? Cross-server play? Clan features? (Not to mention a bunch of other features that would actually make BNet 2.0 an improved version of the service, that games like AoE3, HoN or DotA 2 have) Where is micro? Proper macro mechanics? What are units like Marauders, Colossi, etc. still doing in the game? Where's defender's advantage? Positional units? Blizzard is attentive? Only to their investors... Go do it better. Better yet, find a company that's doing more for it's community. Even Valve has had it's own share of big mistakes and moments where finances came before overly-demanding community. Yeah, SC2 might not have the UI you, or many others like. Again, do it better. Considering how well Blizzard is doing, you should make a killing. BTW - MLG, DRG attacked a toss (can't remember who) with 200/200 on 3 bases before the 13 minute mark. Toss had pure gateway on 2 bases, at ~100/200. The Toss held, countered, and won. I'd say that's a fine example of defenders advantage. There are advanced strategies and very crisp and accurate timings, the game is probably a little to fast for you to notice them. What kind of childish argument is this? This isn't kindergarten. Also stop showing me exceptions from the rule, please. It's about the majority of games and gameplay mechanics, not "hey, in one game this and this happened, so there's hope"... If you don't want to listen to me, maybe you'll at least read several articles that point out various flaws in SC2 that were posted on TL. What do you mean find a company that's doing more for the community? What had Blizzard done for the community since they released SC2? They tried to kill BW, milked the tournaments that sprang into existence and implemented chat rooms. Wow, impressive. And if by UI you mean BNet, then they did not have to put ANY effort into developing a proper service. WC3's BNet with BW's online replays would've been ten times better than what SC2 currently has... HoN's developer has made a much better job, and their just some niche company... ' Strongly agree... Blizzard has spent the past 5 years trying to trash Kespa. Granted Kespa isn't god or anything, but they have NO MONEY compared to Activision Blizzard, which is probably rolling in cash. Bobby Kintcock has one goal, and thats to please shareholders (aka make more money). The old Blizzard released BW for FREE. Do you think Kintcock is even going to give you an expansion for a discount off the original price? Nope, your probably going to pay extra for a game that's marketed as a seperate game, but is merely an expansion. Blizzard has changed, and its not surprising - shareholders must be pleased, or the CEO gets booted. That's the way life is. As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course)
I'll try to get both here.
If they haven't put ANY effort into it, then it shouldn't be an issue to tackle my challenge. It's called putting your money where your mouth is. You trash it, rather than appreciating what it does well, and pointing out things that would make it work even better. SC:BW interface is trash cause I can't find an evenly matched game in a single click. See how that kind of argument just makes me seem like I don't see the whole picture?
I'm showing you a specific example, in an extreme that doesn't come up often. An offensive move by an extremely competent player that got beat by an army half the size due to defenders advantage and amazing micro. This wasn't a unit composition hard counter, roaches are quite strong against gateway units. If you watch enough SC2, you'll see there's huge variation in play. Once the game develops, and 'coinflippy' builds become less and less likely to succeed, you'll see them less. The flaws are opinion-based. It doesn't matter if they're in article form. The game's entertaining, and challenging. It shouldn't be called flawed or easy until someone can exploit these flaws or master it.
Blizzard isn't worried about release dates. That alone is huge for the community, and shows they care more about releasing quality than making money. How have they tried to kill SC:BW? Is there proof KeSPA is 'dropping SC:BW cause Blizzard said so' ? They MADE SC:BW anyways, it's theirs to kill, as long as they don't stop the average guy from playing single player. Also they've offered the Battle.net service, at a loss, to every purchaser for free, for well over a decade. They continue to support, at a loss, SC:BW for the average player. Do they start making demands when other companies try to make money off their copyrights? Hell yes! They're pretty much obligated to in order to continue enforcing their ownership.
HoN's development was much more simple than SC2s. It's a clone of an existing game (originally made with help from the tools Blizzard gave to the community). It's reasonable more time was spent on UI, because less focus was needed on intuitive gameplay or untested mechanics. Really, if the biggest concern is the UI, I consider SC2 to be a great success. I can play a generally even matched game at nearly every skill level with a very short wait in a single click. Seems like they got the important part right.
What's do you mean, old Blizzard? What did the old Blizzard do different? They had less fanatics attacking their every decision, that's for sure. KeSPA is trying to monetize and control something they don't own, and Blizzard is making sure they have a say in how that's done. Both sides seem to have fair desires. SK Telecom has the leading position on KeSPAs board, so it's pretty much Big Corp vs Big Corp.
If you think SC2 has an easily attained skill cap, then you don't understand strategic gaming. It goes well beyond mechanics. Even then, saying current pros have perfect mechanics at 250 AMP shows you don't really watch much SC2.
I have nothing against SC:BW. I'm just sick of pissed off fans attacking a great game because a game THEY THINK (yes, it REALLY is just opinion) is better is being replaced by it.
Bitch at KeSPA or Blizzard, not SC2 fans. That is to say, if Blizzard even has anything to do with SC:BW being dropped.
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This is the saddest and most depressing thread I have ever read...
Fuck this
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I think it makes sense.
If the BW pros switch over to SC2, then they must concern themselves with ONE competitive game to be their best, rather than multiple.
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Really, really glad to see that Blizzard is working with Kespa, instead of fighting them like in BW. In fact that alone means there is massive potential for the growth of SC2. Also if it meant that BW kept going, I wonder if blizzard would consider a graphics overhaul to BW, not touch the UI, AI, or anything other than graphics.
Edit: The warning at the top makes me think about BW vs SC2 vs LoL characters all duking it out Super Smash Bro style. That would clearly be the best way to decide all Game X vs Game Y debates as well.
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I dont know why you guys thinks with SC2 finally getting some attention in korea, esports in the rest of the world would some how grow ...
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I have to admit, BW's getting stale tho. In your typical, run-of-the mill Brood War PvT, there are so many units that are almost unused completely. Wraiths, Valkyries, Scouts, Dark Archons, Firebats. Just how many Zerg combat units does the average player use in a typical ZvZ? (It's three.) A lot of these units are falling out of use, at least in ladder, because players have had 14 years to find the units that are the best for the entire matchup.
For proof, go read some of the old 1999 battle reports on Blizzard's old page and see what kind of stuff those players are pulling. Reavers in Shuttles were still a completely unexpected tactic.
Compared to SC2. Other than Carriers, I've seen almost every unit in PvT used fairly frequently, and the ones that aren't like Archons have uses in a different matchup. Add in the fact that the game is still being regularly patched and tactics change frequently. Takes almost twice to kill a Broodlord with Snipe than it did just before that patch.
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On March 27 2012 02:57 [Azn]Nada wrote:
As for trying to compare BW to SC2, I personally (and most BW stalwarts) feel that its comparing (1) oranges to apples, and (2) chess to checkers. SC2 isn't nearly as deep as BW, and the skillcap will be reached quite shortly... BW is physically impossible to attain perfect macro/micro - that literally requires ~1000 APM... SC2, 250 is enough for most situations... The game wasn't great to begin with, Dustin Bowder came fresh off screwing the entire Command and Conquer line, and Kintcock was alot more interested in dumbing the game down for the masses than making it an elitist game that BW seems to have come to be over the years (for more $$$$ of course)
While I usually try very hard to have no opnion on the whole BW vs SC2 thing, I will jump in here nonetheless to make a small point.
I would highly recommend you watch the TLO interview from MLG where he talks about trying to develop a better style of zerg. In essence he says he is struggeling with the fact that he can't actually do all the things at once he would need to do to pull it off.
So while there may or may not be truth to it that 250 APM is enough to pull off the current standard strategies, it does not mean that within the frame of SC2 no better strategies then the currently used ones exist that can also only be played to perfection with ~1000 APM.
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The Starcraft Comunity will grow so why we arent just Happy that the Scene is getting closer to each other ?
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On March 27 2012 06:39 LisKelicious wrote:
The Starcraft Comunity will grow so why we arent just Happy that the Scene is getting closer to each other ?
Well one thing is that the BW community have litterally EVERYTHING to lose if a 'switch' is happening. When a man is backed into a corner, hellgate opens.
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tHE OLD MUST DIE AND THE YOUNG MUST FLOURISH!
User was banned for this post.
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On March 27 2012 02:53 shanelevy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:18 lottopk wrote:
Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post Out of curiousity, why was he warned? This seems like a valid opinion even if it is highly arguable.
What he said isn't exactly "wrong" or what have you. But there are alot of people who are very passionate about BW on this site and they do not want to think about BW potentially not being there within the next few years. It sparks needless hate and is bad for both BW and SC2 at the same time.
There is potential that BW will be over eventually, and possibly within the next few years. There is a possibility that sc2 will die out before then, or it will become just as good as BW will (game is only 1/3 of the way done and it's progressing very quickly).
Whether or not ethier game is around , and whether or not BW is "old" or "boring" or w/e peoples opinion would be (I personally love BW, i wouldn't play sc2 if it wasn't for BW) there is no need to have controversial topics on it. It's in the best interest of both games for both BW and SC2 fans to get along. Otherwise we will miss out on the harcore BW'ers enjoying SC2 later on and bringing their experiance from viewing bw/playing bw to the discussions.
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EPT
