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Wtf? TvP is still easy as ever.
Maybe it's because of my mindset that gets me the wins:
Abuse protoss lack of early game scouting options, always try to be aggressive trading barracks units with gateways units, always/constantly drop, always keep main army moving, and sneak in orbitals into my build whenever I can for more marines. That and the fact that I always split my MM ball into 3 control groups (BW habit) to allow for better micro.
TvP is still easy, terrans complaining just fail to abuse the advantages that T has over P such as stronger T1 to T2 units, higher mobility/drops, making orbitals, and USING SCANS to always know what the P is doing.
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On March 12 2012 14:48 sGs.Stregon wrote:
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Fix protoss, they are too easymode. And from the argument you are making about how Terran is "balanc"ing out, then Warp Gate + Chrono boost forge should be toned down, because it is to strong as it is.. And For The Love Of Whatever You Belive In, give me more options than T1 MMM to win games.. I would like to see Protoss players use nothing but Zelots and Stalkers in ALL ther mu's for a month, and see how well they do..
Oh god so much this, im sick from MMM all game long against protoss. Just because this is our only viable option. There was a moment when Mech looked like it could be great, especially for the lower leagues. Instead of toning it down, blizzard killed it outright. Energy-on-Thors-again patch, im looking at you.
On March 12 2012 15:05 Noak3 wrote:
I feel like the problem is in large part to people at lower levels trying to make micro-based comps work for them because they work at pro level. Terran is really strong, but they're just so micro/multitasking dependent right now that any terrans either get to high masters/grandmasters or have a seriously tough time getting through low-mid masters and below diamond. I think more low terrans should switch to some kind of mech style to get the skill required to play their race more in line with protoss/zerg.
This can be really subtle and hard to notice at first. When the ghost nerf hit I decided to switch to mech in TvZ. As a Platinum player, this is the only thing thats left for me. I actually have decent micro (for a Platinum player) but its nowhere near enough to make things work.
I also started playing as Zerg in custom games against friends (so far i've only watched zergs at tournaments and Ive played the race in team games). Lets say that with my lacking experience with everything that's not Terran .. if I could play against myself (TvZ), the Zerg me will win in 10/10 if I use anything different than mech. Mech itself gives me a viable army composition that doesnt depend heavily on micro and sick multitasking. But its also really hard to start using it as in the past 20 months ive only used some form of bio or marine-tank.
Hurf durf TL DR: Make mech viable in TvP.
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For the last few seasons I've had less than 15% of my games be TvTs.
On March 12 2012 15:05 Noak3 wrote:
I feel like the problem is in large part to people at lower levels trying to make micro-based comps work for them because they work at pro level. Terran is really strong, but they're just so micro/multitasking dependent right now that any terrans either get to high masters/grandmasters or have a seriously tough time getting through low-mid masters and below diamond. I think more low terrans should switch to some kind of mech style to get the skill required to play their race more in line with protoss/zerg.
This. My experience, as a mid masters terran who is struggling with micro, is that there is a huge road block at the low masters/high diamond level. Once you get to the point where you need to split units, you suddenly have to improve your micro substantially to make it into masters, but once you have this micro it becomes smooth sailing for a while. I feel like protoss and zerg have a more smooth transition from a-move to pro level micro, where as terran is much faster. I feel like my macro has improved fairly regularly/consistently since I started playing, but there was a long period of time where I felt like my micro had to improve by so much to be able to win games.
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On March 12 2012 10:59 GlintFox wrote:
Its interesting to see the Zergs weakest matchup is Protoss. And Protoss weakest matchup is Zerg. lol
I think it can have something to do with how you lose. When losing against terran it is often because of clear reasons, like my double forge got sniped at 12min and cloaked ghost snuck in and EMPed the HTs and if I just had keeping a scouting observer alive that would not have happened, so let's make sure I do that next game. Losing against toss or zerg feels more like you lose to a simply unstoppable force of units at the time. At least that is what I feel as a random player.
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in my opinion terran is the hardest race for lower leagues. Most players dont have the apm and micro required to split vs banes or accomplish most terran micro requirements. and over time it seems like zerg doesnt fall for terran tricks anymore. i talk to zergs every day who say zvt is their easiest matchup. On top of TvZ problems, TvP is also very difficult. I myself am just figuring out tvp but ive focused so much on tvp that i've been lacking on my tvz and tvt.
On top of all of this, terran is constantly nerfed which can frustrate some people.
Also it seems that whenever a Terran wins its because "Terran OP" not because the player played well. "Terran OP" has been around since beta and its became an excuse for losses and blizzard took it seriously. i wont argue that Terran wasnt OP long ago, they were op but the game has changed since. Play styles change and iof u think about it some of the previous nerfs don't make sense in today's metagame.
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I have been wondering this. It seems I play against terran only half the amount if time in comparison to the other races. I suppose this was the patch that broke the camels back.
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Terran is an aggressive race its much MUCH harder to sit back and just macro up and 1a to victory. You have to be like a pitbull the entire time ripping apart your opponent. You should also become much better at 1 base strategies, all-ins, and cheeses.
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On March 12 2012 02:10 Psychobabas wrote:
Why is it that mostly Protoss players appear in this thread saying that TvP is fine, when the OP just mentions some simple statistics?
I wonder why...
I would like some Protoss players to inform the community how they lose =/. Because where ever I look it is QQ about T1 Terran units, which is the only decent unit Terran has left for this mu.. So by all means protoss players, what are you losing too, because every credible source i look at involves varying openings to achieve the same composition, MMM + drops, whereas protoss has 20 different unit comps+builds they can do to achieve different things.. Or is it a simple fact that you messed up BIG time and lost, and thus TvP is fine, because it is winnable by Terran so long as Protoss makes BIG mistakes..
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I've noticed a lot less Terrans on ladder (Mid-Master) which is a shame because my ZvT is fantastic ^^
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On March 12 2012 15:49 Rygasm wrote:
Terran is an aggressive race its much MUCH harder to sit back and just macro up and 1a to victory. You have to be like a pitbull the entire time ripping apart your opponent. You should also become much better at 1 base strategies, all-ins, and cheeses.
Except it's not that one-dimensional as "be aggressive." Zerg and Protoss often have similarly strong early and mid game options which mean demise for an unprepared or aggressive Terran. This leaves Terrans without sufficient skill and experience feeling vulnerable all game long, since there's no general point in a game where they feel comfortable and confident.
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I do face fewer terran in diamond sea server. But that is a good new for me because I don't like tvt. And yes as a terran I do playing less and less game each season, it is a combination of
1 skyrim + mass effect3 + ff13-2
2 no inspiration ( in bw, we always have terran hero. Like boxer, oov or nada)
3 each patch doesn't make it more exciting for terran.
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On March 12 2012 11:52 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:59 GlintFox wrote:
Its interesting to see the Zergs weakest matchup is Protoss. And Protoss weakest matchup is Zerg. lol It's also just downright depressing that no one thinks playing against a Terran is challenging, not even other Terrans.
it's because we had to figure out how to all all the aggressive timings and cheesy stuff of terran from terran for a long time.
I think that the problem with lategame terran was masked by their early game winning rate for a very long time. There was a time that as a Protoss had to face like 7/10 terrans on ladder, and every one of them did a different early game aggression. But as these timings started to not work, terrans started struggling.
The problem with lategame terran is that every lategame unit has energy and gets coutered by HTs and mech gets coutered by every P unit. Probably a sollution would be to introduce a "vs Shield" Damage to some units
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On March 11 2012 11:19 IMoperator wrote:
Terran requires a lot of micro and multitasking. Not saying that the other races don't
Then I will.
The other races don't require a lot of micro and multitasking. They require basic micro and multitasking, yes, but not nearly on the same scale.
Both Zerg and Protoss's mid-lategame unit compositions require extremely little macro. Zerg's macro is unbelievably easy, requiring a total of 1 hotkey to instantly access all of his production. Protoss can just 1a his army and spend all game macroing, because even if he trades slightly less than evenly (due to a superior Terran player's better micro), he's pretty much guaranteed to come out ahead because while the T is microing, he's not macroing.
Terran has to move twice as fast to stay even, to say nothing of winning.
TvP:
Early game favors toss. Terran has to stay in his base and waste scans for fear of the 100 different varieties of cheese the toss can pull off.
Mid game favors toss. As soon as colossus or HT's come out, Terran again has to hide in his base, and use 100 apm on drop micro in order to stop the toss from moving out and rolling over him.
Late game favors toss. The toss can do literally anything, and as long as he's spending his money, he can hardly lose. The terran has to be at least 1 league above the toss to win if a game gets to this stage.
TvZ:
Extreme early game favors Zerg, Terran has to wall off or be destroyed.
Early game favors Terran. Bunker rushes are pretty strong.
Mid game is pretty even.
Late game, Terran loses. Period. Unless the Zerg is mentally handicapped and runs all his mutas into a pile of marines without baneling support.
Yes, this is balance crying. Yes, I'm aware that there is a 0% chance of anything changing. Despite it, I strive to keep improving so I can beat P/Z opponents despite the fucking ludicrous uphill battle, because I simply respect high level Terran players 1000x more than other races'.
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On March 12 2012 15:34 Mowr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:59 GlintFox wrote:
Its interesting to see the Zergs weakest matchup is Protoss. And Protoss weakest matchup is Zerg. lol I think it can have something to do with how you lose. When losing against terran it is often because of clear reasons, like my double forge got sniped at 12min and cloaked ghost snuck in and EMPed the HTs and if I just had keeping a scouting observer alive that would not have happened, so let's make sure I do that next game. Losing against toss or zerg feels more like you lose to a simply unstoppable force of units at the time. At least that is what I feel as a random player. This seems pretty spot on as a zerg player. ZvP is a frustrating matchup to play, and not particularly fun to watch most of the time, to me. If every tournament finals was ZvT from here out, I'd be fine with that.
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Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions. It's undeniable the micro-ability of protoss and zerg units are somewhat limited compared to terran units at high level. Different races should definitely have different features and specialties but when it comes down to general macro and micro mechanics they should be on similar level of difficulty and bring similar level of benefits over effort. This is currently not true in several matchups. And it is very hard and risky to patch around. The patch has to address ability design rather than ability benefit to work things out in the the correct way. But it is very risky to do so because without substantial pro level exploration blizzard cannot dictate the direction of these patches and they may turn out to be disaster. Therefore blizzard is probably neglecting these issues and only working on what they can at best at the moment. That are two things I can think of:
1. balance top level to increase popularity of sc2 in the e-sport scene(basically getting rid of terrans at the very top, it definitely hurt a lot over the past year when terrans pretty much owned gsl, just imagine the number of viewer driven away because of that face, and clearly this season GSL did much much better in terms of viewer count, check it out by comparing 2012 season 1 and 2011 november videos)
2. work on HotS to address these game design issues, these has to be addressed but in no way they can be done now
Blizzard is a company and they make decisions to get the most profit or other intangible interest, they are not non-profit organization that only do the best for the mass people. So those people who have been holding the illusion that the game is always well-balanced, or well-balanced at every skill level are simply not mature enough to take it. Of course for the gamer community, it is healthy not to talk about balance because 95% of us don't really know that well about balance and 99.9999% of us cannot influence it and so balance whining only degrades the community wellness.
So I guess for casual players just play the most enjoyable race, be it either the race that wins you the most games, or being the most challenging, or you like the general playstyle. But for pro gamers, since it's their career, it kind of matters what blizzard is deciding to do with this game and how much it influence each of them.
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On March 12 2012 17:19 CreationSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 11:52 NoctemSC wrote:On March 12 2012 10:59 GlintFox wrote:
Its interesting to see the Zergs weakest matchup is Protoss. And Protoss weakest matchup is Zerg. lol It's also just downright depressing that no one thinks playing against a Terran is challenging, not even other Terrans. it's because we had to figure out how to all all the aggressive timings and cheesy stuff of terran from terran for a long time. I think that the problem with lategame terran was masked by their early game winning rate for a very long time. There was a time that as a Protoss had to face like 7/10 terrans on ladder, and every one of them did a different early game aggression. But as these timings started to not work, terrans started struggling. The problem with lategame terran is that every lategame unit has energy and gets coutered by HTs and mech gets coutered by every P unit. Probably a sollution would be to introduce a "vs Shield" Damage to some units
vs Shield dmg would break TvP in terran favor.. I know this because they already nerfed Terrans vs Shield unit - Ghost EMP..And lord knows you dont want Terran to be able to win that endgame engagement..
I think there are less Terrans, because Terran is just harder to be good with, it is just easier player the other two races, and for anybody not wanted to put 15+games in a day, Terran is too daughnting.. Say what you want. P and Z take skill to be good with, but they do not take the amout of skill that Terran dose((better nerf Terran more))
I wont switch off of Terran, because i enjoy their playstyle too much ((aggression aggression and more aggression = hyperaggression)), and I cant get into that turtle type game play..
What I want to know, is wth happend in the starcraft universe to make T and P switch playstyles? Terran use to be that turtle race with amazing lategame army, while protoss had to be the aggressor and make things happen, now it is visa versa.. Either way, I just want to use reapers =( QQ..QQ.. I am so sad I didnt start playing untill a few weeks ago, i missed all the sexy Reaper stuff, and instead have bum Reefers..
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On March 12 2012 17:37 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 15:34 Mowr wrote:On March 12 2012 10:59 GlintFox wrote:
Its interesting to see the Zergs weakest matchup is Protoss. And Protoss weakest matchup is Zerg. lol I think it can have something to do with how you lose. When losing against terran it is often because of clear reasons, like my double forge got sniped at 12min and cloaked ghost snuck in and EMPed the HTs and if I just had keeping a scouting observer alive that would not have happened, so let's make sure I do that next game. Losing against toss or zerg feels more like you lose to a simply unstoppable force of units at the time. At least that is what I feel as a random player. This seems pretty spot on as a zerg player. ZvP is a frustrating matchup to play, and not particularly fun to watch most of the time, to me. If every tournament finals was ZvT from here out, I'd be fine with that.
Yeah spot on. That's how i feel on PvZ. I feel like a neverending stream of units comes out of nowhere and crushes me.
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I feel many players are ignoring facts just to cave into balance whining. We don't know the current win rates through out the leagues (most recent I could find has TvP at 47%: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3551858/StarCraft_II_Balance_Snapshot_-9_22_2011) but Blizzard has shown in the past to actively seek win rates within +-5% of 50% for all leagues. They patch pretty often with the community often complaining that they don't leave enough time for the metagame to settle. So what I'm saying is if terran was actually performing significantly worse in any league we would see patches to adjust the balance.
With that said I think the problem is that the majority of Terran wins come from one/two base all ins and they lose if the game goes long. Which leads to a very frustrating game experience for anyone not wanting to just hone their 1/1/1 skills and bunker rushes. So in conclusion I think the PvT match up is balanced but Terran needs nerfs in the mid/early game and buffs in the late game so that the match up can remain balanced but be balanced throughout the entire match duration rather than one period where terran dominates and then another period where the enemy dominates.
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This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community.
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On March 12 2012 05:51 HardlyNever wrote:
Oh look, another balance qq thread that "isn't a balance qq thread."
Terran was overpowered since release. Look at a combination of tournament wins + patch notes for the first year of the game if you need proof. The community as a whole told terran players their race was overpowered and should expect harder wins in the future. When it finally came, people bitched, switched races, or just quit rather than get better. Not much else to say IMO.
O look, another balance qq post that "isn't a blance qq post."
Get real bro.. You and your kind ((protoss abUSERS)) qq'ed like school girls when your race was the under dog.. Now that Terran is that under dog race, Terran players cannot post about lack of Terran players lest they be called for hiding QQ?
what is protoss abUSERS deal.. Zerg are pretty relaxed about balance discussions.. Terran players have no say, they just get nerfed ((every Terran player I speak with insists snipe was over nerfed, emp was over nerfed, vikings were over nerfed, tanks were over nerfed, reapers were overnerfed, BF was over nerfed, Why are Thors being taken out??)) but they deal with it and develop strategies to compensate ((MMM all game every game =/)).. Protoss players get nothing but buffs and they still QQ about stupied stuff..
Yes there are less Terran players, that is what he is asking, how in any way is that QQ? Collosi break Terrans back, how is that anything other than an observation.. Protoss players QQ like girls about marines being op, but they have THE ABSOLUT BEST COUNTERS to marines in their tech tree, and even hard tech to get those units, yet you can QQ all you want about Marines, or Marauders concusive shell and be fine with it((the only units Terran still has that are viable in this mu))..BUT GOD FORBID a Terran player makes a thread asking wether he is the only one that notices the lack of Terran players, because it has to be hidding QQ..
On March 12 2012 17:51 Geos13 wrote:
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With that said I think the problem is that the majority of Terran wins come from one/two base all ins and they lose if the game goes long. Which leads to a very frustrating game experience for anyone not wanting to just hone their 1/1/1 skills and bunker rushes. So in conclusion I think the PvT match up is balanced but Terran needs nerfs in the mid/early game and buffs in the late game so that the match up can remain balanced but be balanced throughout the entire match duration rather than one period where terran dominates and then another period where the enemy dominates.
There is this timing attack that protoss can do that involves 3 **hard shell guys ((name eludes me atm))** that hits late earlygame//early mid game that is impossible for Terran to defend against, that comes of 1 or 2 bases, depending on the players playstyle.. Terran is not heavily favored in the early game, and is quickly losing any edge in the mid game((protoss abUSERS are getting better at defending drops)) and Terran absolutly falls apart in the late game.. How would nerfed Terran early - mid game and buffing their late game help them in any way?? You nerf Terrans early game, and suddenly they cannot defend against 3 gate cyber warp-in rush that is so popular amoung protoss abUSERS((which ironiclly is a 1-2 base build)), that is hard enough to defend as is((and they dont auto lose if it fails. they actually go on to win lategame regardless)).. Protoss is slightly Imbalanced((not broken, just needs some tweaks)), how would nerfing Terran more help?? Because KOREAN PROS still win?
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EPT
