|
On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too
when has 3 rax worked in the last year
|
Terran is the hardest race, hence it's understandable that there are less terran players. Protoss are the easiest race, so it's understandable that there are the most of them.
Overall though, the numbers don't seem to make it so that it's too big of a deal — you still get to play every race quite evenly, just not entirely balanced.
|
On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year
Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first.
See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar.
He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time.
|
On March 12 2012 19:56 Xapti wrote:
Terran is the hardest race, hence it's understandable that there are less terran players. Protoss are the easiest race, so it's understandable that there are the most of them.
Overall though, the numbers don't seem to make it so that it's too big of a deal — you still get to play every race quite evenly, just not entirely balanced.
Mechanically, this is true.
If you balance the game for pro players, then yes, the game is more or less balanced at that level, but the worse you are mechanically/the more you lag, then the more playing terran will suck for you. It's the sad truth.
Terran was always mechanically the hardest, but on release it was also strategically the easiest. TvZ was very funny, I kept thinking to myself, now which all-in shall I perform on the zerg next?
2 rax bunker, 3 rax supply drop, 1-1-1, mega rax, hellions into banshee, disguised 2 port banshee, BFH drop into 2 base push, hellion into viking into MM, hellions and thors, or just standard non all-in marine tank...it was just laughable.
Usually they guessed wrong.
|
On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time.
against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u
dont need 3 rax stim lol
|
On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is.
Well said, sir.
It is amazing that this thread has been going on for so long. There are posts in this thread that flat out say that "Protoss and Zerg players have less skill, terran is harder, it is known fact". What place does that have on TL, which is built around a community of competitive players?
Seriously, if half this effort was put into reviewing replays and determining what people did wrong, we would all be better players.
|
On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol
oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that!
terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly.
|
On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly.
Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort.
|
It's depressing to believe you are getting worse.
Because Terran was so OP at release, a lot of terrans were ranked higher than they would have been if the game was balanced at release.
(I am not saying it's balanced now, just that at release, it was pretty Terran favored, which I don't think you can argue against).
So now, a lot of Terrans may have been progressing skill wise just as much as everyone else, but they are comparatively ranked lower compared to other races.
Zerg is different, in that you would move up in ranks without actually becoming comparatively better, just because the race is overall buffed (I am a zerg player, this did happen).
|
ohh.. im so happy that im not the only one struggling with my TvP.
|
Exaggerating the comparable difficulty of your race
overstating your own play while downplaying the opponents
claiming that you have to play perfectly or you lose instantly
saying that your opponent has to make glaring mistakes for you to have a chance
Anyone else notice that this stuff is exactly the same regardless of what race is having "trouble" at the moment? I've seen protoss, terran, and zergs claim stuff like this over and over though the life of SC2. Before SC2 i saw it constantly in WoW. (To be fair it was a bigger deal in WoW as some classes were truely overpowered at certain points)
|
On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game.
Yea, I do play the game, master level as well. It's pretty clear to me that if I only split my army into 2 groups, I will lose 100% of TvZs... Come on...
|
On March 12 2012 18:45 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 15:09 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Wtf? TvP is still easy as ever.
Maybe it's because of my mindset that gets me the wins:
Abuse protoss lack of early game scouting options, always try to be aggressive trading barracks units with gateways units, always/constantly drop, always keep main army moving, and sneak in orbitals into my build whenever I can for more marines. That and the fact that I always split my MM ball into 3 control groups (BW habit) to allow for better micro.
TvP is still easy, terrans complaining just fail to abuse the advantages that T has over P such as stronger T1 to T2 units, higher mobility/drops, making orbitals, and USING SCANS to always know what the P is doing. What league are you in?
Mid-high masters random player on NA. Currently in China, got placed in diamond and now worked my way to low masters random (server's a lot harder than N.A. that's for sure).
The point is, I agree with the consensus among terran players that terran is harder to play at higher (but not the top) levels. However, I also agree with the notion that terran is the race with the most micro potential, so as long as you spend your APM at the right places you will gain a larger advantage from success encounters. An example would be, spending my APM on drops/harassment (especially multi-proned ones) has always yielded me a larger benefit than say, doing cute micro tricks such as kiting 2 groups of units at once or trying to spread my marines. Sure that colossus is going to kill more marines as a result, but as long as I still have enough reinforcements to hold my base, that toss is fucked because I just killed 10+ probes, a few tech structures, and saved my dropships to recharge energy for another round of pain 2 minutes later.
|
On March 12 2012 20:01 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:56 Xapti wrote:
Terran is the hardest race, hence it's understandable that there are less terran players. Protoss are the easiest race, so it's understandable that there are the most of them.
Overall though, the numbers don't seem to make it so that it's too big of a deal — you still get to play every race quite evenly, just not entirely balanced. Mechanically, this is true. If you balance the game for pro players, then yes, the game is more or less balanced at that level, but the worse you are mechanically/the more you lag, then the more playing terran will suck for you. It's the sad truth. Terran was always mechanically the hardest, but on release it was also strategically the easiest. TvZ was very funny, I kept thinking to myself, now which all-in shall I perform on the zerg next? 2 rax bunker, 3 rax supply drop, 1-1-1, mega rax, hellions into banshee, disguised 2 port banshee, BFH drop into 2 base push, hellion into viking into MM, hellions and thors, or just standard non all-in marine tank...it was just laughable. Usually they guessed wrong.
Lol how times change. Before it was all about Zerg being the hardest, Terran being the easiest.
|
On March 12 2012 21:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:01 shadymmj wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Xapti wrote:
Terran is the hardest race, hence it's understandable that there are less terran players. Protoss are the easiest race, so it's understandable that there are the most of them.
Overall though, the numbers don't seem to make it so that it's too big of a deal — you still get to play every race quite evenly, just not entirely balanced. Mechanically, this is true. If you balance the game for pro players, then yes, the game is more or less balanced at that level, but the worse you are mechanically/the more you lag, then the more playing terran will suck for you. It's the sad truth. Terran was always mechanically the hardest, but on release it was also strategically the easiest. TvZ was very funny, I kept thinking to myself, now which all-in shall I perform on the zerg next? 2 rax bunker, 3 rax supply drop, 1-1-1, mega rax, hellions into banshee, disguised 2 port banshee, BFH drop into 2 base push, hellion into viking into MM, hellions and thors, or just standard non all-in marine tank...it was just laughable. Usually they guessed wrong. Lol how times change. Before it was all about Zerg being the hardest, Terran being the easiest.
Because you didn't have to master the mechanics of Terran before, but balance changes changed this.
|
On March 12 2012 20:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly. Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort.
Oh It's not about winrates, because the ladder system works in a way that you'll have a near 50-50 winrate anyway. But thank you for your effort. It's about losing to inferoir players making a ton of crucial mistakes left and right, macroing bad (tons off minerals/gas stacked up while nowhere near max) and still winning in the end. I don't mind to lose if my opponent plays well.
|
On March 12 2012 20:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly. Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort.
Yes, and they all switched to Protoss for this very reason.
What other players are you talking about really? GSL Level players like MKP? I don't think many T players in the masters and below ranks have nice win rates in TvP.
|
On March 12 2012 21:08 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:14 Plansix wrote:On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly. Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort. Yes, and they all switched to Protoss for this very reason. What other players are you talking about really? GSL Level players like MKP? I don't think many T players in the masters and below ranks have nice win rates in TvP.
Oh, how I love this argument... because if you have ~50% winrate overall statistically (the way MMR works) and 50% winrate in TvT statistically (the way a mirror MU works), <50% winrate in TvP means you have >50% winrate in TvZ. I don't see Terrans complaining how TvZ is too easy...
|
That's easy, terran cannot amove 200/200 army randomly like the other races do up to high master.
|
I knew the never ending NERF hammer would strike the Terran race hard and often starting about 6-8 months ago. My then silver league insticts were spot on. Terran were crushing so hard in the GSL(in large part due to format and stagnant player pool, so much Terran cannon fodder) that it was impossible for the perception of the race to be anything other than rofl omg Terran imba OP from those inclined to think so narrowly. Blizzard unfortunately is of this ilk. For example they see Ghosts rape T3 Z in like 3 isolated games played by like MVP, MMA and they destroy the Ghost(by far worst patch ever in anything ever). They forget that doing this is FUCKING HARD. Really hard.
Its sad and the game is prolly a lil harder than it should be as a noble human crusading against gay aliens and evil bugmonsters but what the hell. Now I just laugh even harder when I steamroll someone and they say 'gratz for playing Terran n00b.' And then cry a little harder when I carpet EMP a deathball on equal upgrades, make a concave, stutter from chargelots, position my vikings aaaaannnnndddddddddd lose. *sigh*
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
