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On March 12 2012 21:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 21:08 petro1987 wrote:On March 12 2012 20:14 Plansix wrote:On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:
[quote]
because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters.
because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions
because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles
because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable
because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well
because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem!
That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly. Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort. Yes, and they all switched to Protoss for this very reason. What other players are you talking about really? GSL Level players like MKP? I don't think many T players in the masters and below ranks have nice win rates in TvP. Oh, how I love this argument... because if you have ~50% winrate overall statistically (the way MMR works) and 50% winrate in TvT statistically (the way a mirror MU works), <50% winrate in TvP means you have >50% winrate in TvZ. I don't see Terrans complaining how TvZ is too easy...
Well, to be honest, I don't think anyone would complain when anything is too easy. I'm not saying TvZ is easy, but it's certainly not as hard as TvP for pretty much everyone. Besides, people are mostly complaining about late game. So yes, you can have a somewhat decent winrate in TvP by allining almost every game, but that's not very fun, is it?
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On March 12 2012 17:32 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 11:19 IMoperator wrote:
Terran requires a lot of micro and multitasking. Not saying that the other races don't Then I will. The other races don't require a lot of micro and multitasking. They require basic micro and multitasking, yes, but not nearly on the same scale. Both Zerg and Protoss's mid-lategame unit compositions require extremely little macro. Zerg's macro is unbelievably easy, requiring a total of 1 hotkey to instantly access all of his production. Protoss can just 1a his army and spend all game macroing, because even if he trades slightly less than evenly (due to a superior Terran player's better micro), he's pretty much guaranteed to come out ahead because while the T is microing, he's not macroing. Terran has to move twice as fast to stay even, to say nothing of winning. TvP: Early game favors toss. Terran has to stay in his base and waste scans for fear of the 100 different varieties of cheese the toss can pull off. Mid game favors toss. As soon as colossus or HT's come out, Terran again has to hide in his base, and use 100 apm on drop micro in order to stop the toss from moving out and rolling over him. Late game favors toss. The toss can do literally anything, and as long as he's spending his money, he can hardly lose. The terran has to be at least 1 league above the toss to win if a game gets to this stage. TvZ: Extreme early game favors Zerg, Terran has to wall off or be destroyed. Early game favors Terran. Bunker rushes are pretty strong. Mid game is pretty even. Late game, Terran loses. Period. Unless the Zerg is mentally handicapped and runs all his mutas into a pile of marines without baneling support. Yes, this is balance crying. Yes, I'm aware that there is a 0% chance of anything changing. Despite it, I strive to keep improving so I can beat P/Z opponents despite the fucking ludicrous uphill battle, because I simply respect high level Terran players 1000x more than other races'.
This is simply wrong.
Early game might favor toss since he has more choices both to be aggressive and to be greedy, but the midgame is in the terrans favor, when medivacs and all bio upgrades finish. The vast majority of terran wins are gotten here.
Extreme TvZ is always in terrans favor since marine micro is murder on anything the zerg can dish out. Saying you need to wall off doesn't make it zerg favored. It simply allows you to rev up your build.
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Well this is funny, my stats for this month
TvP : 31, TvZ : 22, TvT : 4
kinda sad...
Well for January :
TvP : 61, TvZ : 54, TvT : 31
February :
TvP : 70, TvZ : 44, TvT : 30
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I can't say for a fact that there are less Terran players now because I don't ladder and instead practice with my team of 12 but there probably are less Terran players, I've been racepicking zvz and zvp, zvz because of the ghost nerf, Its nearly impossible for me to deal with late game ultrabroodinfestorling, zvp because of muta dominance for such a long time, though I'm thinking of playing more tvp after the phoenix upgrade starts to become the regular zvp metagame. Tvp shouldnt be too difficult unless the protoss forces a long macro game.
Basically, there are probably less terrans now because blizzard has nerfed terran to the point that its extremely difficult to survive once you hit the late game stage with 4+ bases.
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On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is.
It's funny, 4 or 5 months ago we had the exact same thread with Protoss players, complaining how Protoss is the more micro intensive race, least forgiving and how P can't keep up with the other two races.
Then a year ago, same thing with Zergs.
This thread is the same thing, a bunch of people all playing the same race complaining about how hard it is to play Terran, and how the other two races hardly have to do anything to win. But this time, they have grounds. Of course.
Next thing you know we'll see a "sad marauder" thread...
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On March 12 2012 20:42 karpo wrote:
Exaggerating the comparable difficulty of your race
overstating your own play while downplaying the opponents
claiming that you have to play perfectly or you lose instantly
saying that your opponent has to make glaring mistakes for you to have a chance
Anyone else notice that this stuff is exactly the same regardless of what race is having "trouble" at the moment? I've seen protoss, terran, and zergs claim stuff like this over and over though the life of SC2. Before SC2 i saw it constantly in WoW. (To be fair it was a bigger deal in WoW as some classes were truely overpowered at certain points)
In every case the whining about the effort required to compete has been mostly correct, exception being protoss, although it's possible that the zerg whining was more of a map pool issue combined with the game being new enough that there was a lot of unexplored territory.
On March 12 2012 21:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 20:14 Plansix wrote:On March 12 2012 20:12 TeeTS wrote:On March 12 2012 20:02 Killmouse wrote:On March 12 2012 19:56 Noocta wrote:On March 12 2012 19:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 12 2012 19:49 Elthreann wrote:On March 12 2012 19:41 Osteriet wrote:On March 12 2012 19:20 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 18:14 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I don't really get what's so bullshit about Terran needed a good deal more micro and attention during the battle than the other 2 races. It seem's pretty clear.. ;\ because my Terran opponents don't have more APM than my Zerg or Protoss opponents (or me) at Masters. because the multitasking strategies people keep on talking about when glorifying Terrans problems are not being played: I don't play against massive multidropping; and when I do those drops are idle half of the time because they are rallied all across the map and needed exactly 5 actions because the "crazy splitting/micro by Terrans" is big myth... my opponents mostly stim and run in 1-2clumps in battles because Terran has it's own "deathball" strategy, at least in TvZ and though I don't play a lot against it, Mech is definatly viable because Terran does not have to deny bases and go aggressive all the time... I shortly lost to a Terran reacting to a 3base opening with 4 OCs into mass marine rally into BCs at masters and he beat me quite decisevly; I have seen Idra on his stream lose to a Terran going 2base with an additional Planetary Fortress to protect his 2bases for ~15min into mass expand skymech Terran with viking/raven/thor (that was pretty much the only time I turned on that stream... nothing impressive going on there either)... Terran players have to realize that they can just do stupid bullshit on the ladder and don't have to imitate play styles that might indeed be very hard to pull of, but that are exclusivly needed against people who play very hard to pull of stuff as well because every race needs to pay attention to everything that is happening all the time, and there are millions of possibilities to just lose the game for every race in every matchup if you fuck up once... that's not a terran problem! That stuff seems pretty clear, if you actually play the game. I honestly just want all races to be crushed if they just a-move. At the moment you can play a great game with a P or Z and get a-moved any second if tanks are slightly out of position. I have never gained a win from a-move with T, ever. I have been defeated by obviously worse players who a-move and win the coin flip. The feel that you work for your wins while the other races gain them while eating chips is the reason T's do the only thing they can: stop playing. A change in Collosus, smart surround, and more emphasis on positional units in all races should do the trick. Ever tried 3 rax stim into double expand? the first push often wins without micro, just with a-move so its not completely true it can work for all races, and fail for all races too when has 3 rax worked in the last year Jjakji does it once in a while against nexus first. See IPL TAC2 NHS vs FXO : Jjkaji vs Oz on Taldarim Altar. He tried it against Creator on Terminus cross but it failed this time. against nexus first u just throw down 4 rax without expo and its autowin for u dont need 3 rax stim lol oh you seem to be playing terran on a very high level! congrats to that! terran is just fucked up right now. Both, Protoss and Zerg have several Key Units that make such an impact, that Terran has to hard counter them right away or will instantly lose. Terran has no such options (besides some all in attemps), soft countering is enough against terran compositions. And that's the point where it's not only mechanicly harder to play terran but also strategicly. Well other players seem to do fine and have perfectly acceptable win rates with terran. Would you like them to make the game easier for you? I didn't think that is what we wanted, but I guess there are players out there who just want to be ranked highly will minimal effort. Oh It's not about winrates, because the ladder system works in a way that you'll have a near 50-50 winrate anyway. But thank you for your effort. It's about losing to inferoir players making a ton of crucial mistakes left and right, macroing bad (tons off minerals/gas stacked up while nowhere near max) and still winning in the end. I don't mind to lose if my opponent plays well.
This has happened to me as we ll where I lose to 60 APM a-moving protosses, but honestly I don't think it's that much of an issue because once you learn how to stop the silly deathball A-move or refine your mechanics to the point where you can fight it head on or kill it before it gets going you're going to jump so much in the ladder simply because you're past a massive hurdle that is low level TvP. I'd like for Blizzard to make the race more difficult to play eventually though.
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It's Bc in the late game Terran has no options, at least without Korean gm micro. Without crazy micro, Terran justs melts like butter. I hope in HOTS the new mech units make a game longer than 15 mins viable. Just my 2 cents.
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On March 12 2012 21:57 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. It's funny, 4 or 5 months ago we had the exact same thread with Protoss players, complaining how Protoss is the more micro intensive race, least forgiving and how P can't keep up with the other two races. Then a year ago, same thing with Zergs. This thread is the same thing, a bunch of people all playing the same race complaining about how hard it is to play Terran, and how the other two races hardly have to do anything to win. But this time, they have grounds. Of course. Next thing you know we'll see a "sad maraudeur" thread...
I'm pretty sure Protoss and Zergs players were complaining about different things. Zergs complaining that they are the most micro intensive race? I've never seen such complaint. If anything they were complaining that the MMM ball was too powerfull and it was just 1a and stimpack.
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Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere.
Edit: i did switch from Protoss to terran 4 weeks ago. and personally my best matchup is TvP. I think the matchups are more then fine atm. Just learn to know your strenghts as a race and player! and keep practicing, and remeber to have fun!
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On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere.
well blizzard might have overnerfed terran because of QQ in the past, so why not try to cry to win >_<
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On March 12 2012 22:01 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 21:57 MandoRelease wrote:On March 12 2012 18:05 Big J wrote:On March 12 2012 17:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
This thread is just evidence for the "Terran Stigma" argument.
Honestly reading pages of pages of under the surface resentment for Terran domination in the GSL as well as imbalances in Season 1 and 2 (which I still say had more to do with the retarded map pool than the races) and using that to justify legitimate gripes about the learning curve of Terran at all levels below GM and professional is just disheartening. I wish I could expect more from the forum community. Yeah, you'd think that people would stop with that "Terran is harder", "Terran players are just better", "Zerg/Protoss are easy a-move races", "Terran Pro players are better" bullshit, but that thread is just another monument of how biased the community is. It's funny, 4 or 5 months ago we had the exact same thread with Protoss players, complaining how Protoss is the more micro intensive race, least forgiving and how P can't keep up with the other two races. Then a year ago, same thing with Zergs. This thread is the same thing, a bunch of people all playing the same race complaining about how hard it is to play Terran, and how the other two races hardly have to do anything to win. But this time, they have grounds. Of course. Next thing you know we'll see a "sad maraudeur" thread... I'm pretty sure Protoss and Zergs players were complaining about different things. Zergs complaining that they are the most micro intensive race? I've never seen such complaint. If anything they were complaining that the MMM ball was too powerfull and it was just 1a and stimpack.
Nope, Protoss were complaining exactly about what I said. Zerg, you replace "micro intensive" by "apm intensive, thus requiring the most effort". And I'm positive that all races at some point complained about having the least forgiving race.
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On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere.
How exactly does playing more fix broken late game in TvP, which most people has been complaining about?
If anything, don't we want to have a match up that would be close to balance at all points in time?
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On March 12 2012 22:15 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere. How exactly does playing more fix broken late game in TvP, which most people has been complaining about? If anything, don't we want to have a match up that would be close to balance at all points in time?
Dude did u even read what u quote?
its ppl like you who are thoose typical balance whiners.
More gg more skill 
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On March 12 2012 22:16 Gumbotwins wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:15 Mehukannu wrote:On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere. How exactly does playing more fix broken late game in TvP, which most people has been complaining about? If anything, don't we want to have a match up that would be close to balance at all points in time? Dude did u even read what u quote? its ppl like you who are thoose typical balance whiners. More gg more skill
You gotta laugh at things like this. That's why Protoss players created the Sad Zealot club, right?
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but could it be that when people stopped playing starcraft 2 (according to the numbers of people playing ladder every season), that most of the people that quit was the newest people to the game and those guys played terran (I imagine that was the premiere race since WoL is based on terran)?
I think its a combination of the nerfs and new players stopped playing. I play terran, but I don't play that much anymore, looking at my match history my last 17 games I only faced 3 terrans. (9 P, 5 Z). :/
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Are we talking about protoss? No?
Just saying u should play more, instead of "wasting ur time" here on the forum's.
Starcraft 2 isn't even nearly fully explored, hence not even 30%. Dont tell me there is not a single timing,poke,macro,micro, oriented play u coud do better, to tilt te game into ur favor by a small margin.
Are u one of the proud member or the Sad Zealot Club?
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On March 12 2012 22:19 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:16 Gumbotwins wrote:On March 12 2012 22:15 Mehukannu wrote:On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere. How exactly does playing more fix broken late game in TvP, which most people has been complaining about? If anything, don't we want to have a match up that would be close to balance at all points in time? Dude did u even read what u quote? its ppl like you who are thoose typical balance whiners. More gg more skill You gotta laugh at things like this. That's why Protoss players created the Sad Zealot club, right?
Wasn't the Sad Zealot club created because more or less all protoss got beat by 1-1-1 for a month or two straight? There's a difference.
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Lately im getting like 80% TvZ which is a fking nightmare
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On March 12 2012 22:16 Gumbotwins wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:15 Mehukannu wrote:On March 12 2012 22:02 Gumbotwins wrote:
Start playing more instead of bitching about stats and whining about balance, what doesn't bring u anywhere. How exactly does playing more fix broken late game in TvP, which most people has been complaining about? If anything, don't we want to have a match up that would be close to balance at all points in time? Dude did u even read what u quote? its ppl like you who are thoose typical balance whiners. More gg more skill
It is you who doesn't understand. No amount of skill is going to miraculously fix balance at highest level of play, especially when you are matched with an equally skillful opponent. That is why we have these discussions about terran being weak at late game scenarios.
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People just jump on the band wagon.
and go like;
Hey there are some forum's talking about terran being Up. Well i just lost my last 5 games this must be thing there going on!
Please. Nobody has ever to played a 'Perfect' game, so there is room for improvement right?
why don't u just start doing that? If u care so much about losing more then winning?
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EPT
