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On March 31 2012 01:53 ProxySilmaril wrote:
Plz read all before calling me Bronze or retard...
Ok.. maybe you are just bad? I mean 4 base vs 2 and you have map control, you shouldn't be losing in that situation. Maybe you aren't utilizing Zerg or bad engagements on your part? Not sure exactly what you want us to read... you switched from P to Z and you are losing to Terran, soooo its obviously OP? I think everyone knows that TvZ is pretty balanced right now, so when you go against the consensus you are just opening yourself up for people to maybe analyze your play, and in most cases when people post like you its something you are doing wrong in a game to lose. I think everyone who posts knows that they need to get better, but its in cases when you see that you play better in comparison to your opponents skill and still lose, and i think we see this most in PvT. If you have to play like someone in a higher league to win, then either you should be a league higher or your opponent should be a league lower.
To me it looks like you've 2 races and not T, so I doubt you have any idea about what T goes through. Why don't you play T and see where your micro/macro stands...because I mean you have to be good with that to play Terran right?
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First I tried Terran a Year ago and it was high Dia niveau. But I decided not to play Terran because I dont like to play them. Think I am best with Toss but because its so hard to win with Toss against Terran I thought ok I try Zerg. But its not me alone who strugle against Terran. See Nestea and other Zerg they all have not so good winratio against Terran as in other MU. And I dont say that Terran is easy to play I only say that the units are more cost efficient!
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On March 31 2012 02:57 ProxySilmaril wrote:
First I tried Terran a Year ago and it was high Dia niveau. But I decided not to play Terran because I dont like to play them. Think I am best with Toss but because its so hard to win with Toss against Terran I thought ok I try Zerg. But its not me alone who strugle against Terran. See Nestea and other Zerg they all have not so good winratio against Terran as in other MU. And I dont say that Terran is easy to play I only say that the units are more cost efficient!
Yes but they are only cost efficient if the person who is playing Terran has the skill to be cost efficient with them. Now this in every league should scale but that is just not the case, and it seems like to be effective with Terran you have to play above the skill level of your P or Z opponent in whatever league you are in. That doesn't sound fair to me. It seems that T requires a certain baseline level of skill to play or to be effective with...doesn't that sound like the case? Its also sad that 1 bad engagement where you are not cost efficient will most likely end up losing you the game, i.e. Zerg just throwing armies at you, or P remax warp in...you might be able to hold a counter but you are most likely going to have to pull all of your scv's and i don't care what anyone says MULES will only sustain you for a short while after this and it won't put you back in the game.
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Didn't know my hiatus from 1v1 laddering was this big of a deal. Not to worry everyone I'll be back next season!
Seriously tho, I play almost no TvTs either and it just doesn't bother me that much other than the fact that i'm having a hard time vs Toss, and when Toss is 50% of your opponents... I just need to better prepare for late game and such. Interestingly enough however, I've been playing random this last season and I think my Zerg has gotten better than my Terran...
I apologize that I haven't read the entire thread so if this has been expressed sorry, but I think that the nerfs that have happened to Terran throughout the last year have been only taking into account the very high level Terran players. While, I guess, these are the more "important" players than lowly low league me, I don't think they realized how it would make the game perhaps a little more difficult for your average Terran player. Your GSL Terrans have the insane micro to make the units WAY more effective and cost efficient than your casual player can.
No complaints tho,I hate balance whining and even saying that makes me cringe. In an ever-changing game, all you can do is continually adapt your play. It's pretty stupid IMO that as the game evolves, people think that they can continue to play exactly the same way they have been...
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On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker.
you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story
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it seems like platinum is incredibly zerg heavy these days. its really sad. but the strange thing is when i play random 2s, i always have a terran ally. i never tvt, but i always tt.
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On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story
Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little.
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On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little.
Ok, I play protoss and I have no idea what you are talking about. Range 9 is FAR. Colossi with reasonable ground support will maul a terran without vikings. The only way a terran is killing the collossi with ground units is A: they are so far ahead they just maul the ground army and the colossi fall soon after, or B: They catch the colossi in the open or near the front.
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On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little.
the only ground unit that can even touch colossus is sieged up tanks but youll never see those in tvp so yeah, if youre losing your colossus to bio you have them way out of position
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On March 30 2012 19:27 ProxySilmaril wrote:
Better question: where did all the protoss go?? I switched from Toss to Zerg and now the most time i face Zergs and terran. And I recognized that not only Terran is OP in TvP they are also OP in TvZ. They can win easily 2 base when a Zerg is 4 base and has the map control. And no I a am not a noob, I am Master with my Protoss account! And when I look MLG and GSL I can see how easily Terran can defeat good players like DRG, Nestea, MC etc.and I see they struggle with the same issues like me.
You should build units and use them to kill his army when it moves out, works really well in 4v2 base scenarios. Btw Terran is op versus Random aswell!
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On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little.
What unit besides the pheonix can move and shot at the same time? Maybe I'm having a massive brain fart and am forgetting something, but to my knowledge every unit is "either moving or dealing damage". And I'm quite clueless as to how you think Collosi don't kite... Kiting is literally moving away from your target, usually with a long range attack, while staying on the very limit of your range so you avoid enemy fire.
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On March 31 2012 05:20 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:27 ProxySilmaril wrote:
Better question: where did all the protoss go?? I switched from Toss to Zerg and now the most time i face Zergs and terran. And I recognized that not only Terran is OP in TvP they are also OP in TvZ. They can win easily 2 base when a Zerg is 4 base and has the map control. And no I a am not a noob, I am Master with my Protoss account! And when I look MLG and GSL I can see how easily Terran can defeat good players like DRG, Nestea, MC etc.and I see they struggle with the same issues like me. You should build units and use them to kill his army when it moves out, works really well in 4v2 base scenarios. Btw Terran is op versus Random aswell!
lol
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On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little.
So terrans shouldn't build vikings vs. Collossus..... interesting. What else is there to build vs Collossi?
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On March 30 2012 17:21 Noocta wrote:
People are a bit silly when they compare what each race need to do in battles.
Okay terran need to micro more, we know that, that's why most of us chose terran anyway.
But on the other hand, Terran don't need to came back to his base EVER once he made enough supply depots. Zerg has creep and inject to worry about ( yeah I know, creep spreading isn't something people worry about during battles, but we'd get there eventually ), Protoss need to get his camera on a pylon and can't chronoboost from a distance either.
So yes, Terran need to micro more, good thing for us: we have time to spare doing it because our macro mechanics are easier and don't requiere to look away from the battle.
A Terran has to go back to his base more than you suggest if he wants his macro not to fail. Mule drops/ building more production/ getting workers back to work(unless you already shift qued them back/ setting up new expos w/ new walls aka defense for those expos. So I would argue just as much as other races have to do at anyone time. Unless your 1-2 base allining then just rally up and hope you don't fail!
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@ Superneenja
For me is it like u need better armee control as Toss as Terran. Terran only need to stim and kite this is all.
And a Protoss cant come back in game when he lost over half of his workers and a terran can. For example I had one game, where I had destroyed most of Terrans economy because he defended with SCV`s he droped mules and had same income like me but only 10 scvs and I was on 2 base!
On March 31 2012 05:20 kyllinghest wrote:
You should build units and use them to kill his army when it moves out, works really well in 4v2 base scenarios. Btw Terran is op versus Random aswell!
I did! I crushed his armee and attacked with 200 supply.. Morphed also mass broodlords, crushed his armee again and took a base down, meanwhile he took a new base and made fast mass viking. He got faster vikings then me new corrupter, also more because vikings cost not that much! And with the new base he landed mass mule prduced mass hellion and from there the game turned no chance to get so fast minerals as a terran who has mules!
I think all terrans who have problems with Protoss and Zerg, has less skill then their opponents!
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On March 31 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little. What unit besides the pheonix can move and shot at the same time? Maybe I'm having a massive brain fart and am forgetting something, but to my knowledge every unit is "either moving or dealing damage". And I'm quite clueless as to how you think Collosi don't kite... Kiting is literally moving away from your target, usually with a long range attack, while staying on the very limit of your range so you avoid enemy fire.
Not to disagree but every protoss air unit can atk while moving, carriers by technicality right?
Ranged colossi can kite thors :>
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On March 31 2012 05:52 ProxySilmaril wrote:@ Superneenja For me is it like u need better armee control as Toss as Terran. Terran only need to stim and kite this is all. And a Protoss cant come back in game when he lost over half of his workers and a terran can. For example I had one game, where I had destroyed most of Terrans economy because he defended with SCV`s he droped mules and had same income like me but only 10 scvs and I was on 2 base! Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 05:20 kyllinghest wrote:
You should build units and use them to kill his army when it moves out, works really well in 4v2 base scenarios. Btw Terran is op versus Random aswell! I did! I crushed his armee and attacked with 200 supply.. Morphed also mass broodlords, crushed his armee again and took a base down, meanwhile he took a new base and made fast mass viking. He got faster vikings then me new corrupter, also more because vikings cost not that much! And with the new base he landed mass mule prduced mass hellion and from there the game turned no chance to get so fast minerals as a terran who has mules! I think all terrans who have problems with Protoss and Zerg, has less skill then their opponents!
this guy has to be trolling us right?
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On March 31 2012 05:52 ProxySilmaril wrote:@ Superneenja For me is it like u need better armee control as Toss as Terran. Terran only need to stim and kite this is all. And a Protoss cant come back in game when he lost over half of his workers and a terran can. For example I had one game, where I had destroyed most of Terrans economy because he defended with SCV`s he droped mules and had same income like me but only 10 scvs and I was on 2 base! Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 05:20 kyllinghest wrote:
You should build units and use them to kill his army when it moves out, works really well in 4v2 base scenarios. Btw Terran is op versus Random aswell! I did! I crushed his armee and attacked with 200 supply.. Morphed also mass broodlords, crushed his armee again and took a base down, meanwhile he took a new base and made fast mass viking. He got faster vikings then me new corrupter, also more because vikings cost not that much! And with the new base he landed mass mule prduced mass hellion and from there the game turned no chance to get so fast minerals as a terran who has mules! I think all terrans who have problems with Protoss and Zerg, has less skill then their opponents!
I have to disagree with you. Because I think one of the reoccurring arguments here is that terran has to control their army much better than toss to be cost effective. There is not much Toss has to in an engagement other than FF, Storm, and possibly kite vikings with colossi.
One thing you have to think about is that mule income is temporary, because after his mules are gone he still only has 10scvs. I assume you still won this game, because really if you didn't you just probably didn't play it out right. If i was playing Toss, I would do some mid/late DT harass, this is a good way to keep the Terran energy in check(I understand that it may be a heavy investment, but i believe DT harass has a lot of potential all throughout the game and obviously might be better in certain situations).
Really as P or Z getting map control against a T to me is fairly simple, not only that but as Terran you really can't afford to split up your army so when you see Terran move out why don't I see Z or P utilizing nydus or warp prism.. I mean to me it seems like its a good way to either slow down a terran army or do significant damage to where when they move out they are forced to win that engagement or lose.
I'm all up for suggestions on what Terran can do in the situations people have been listing...but i don't think Mules are the answer 
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Granted im only diamond there has been time i think to myself " im going to switch to Toss fuck this" , and many of my practice partners have switched ( last 10 ladder games was 7-Zerg 3-Toss ) . i have asked many why and they feel its easier to play those races.. if that is true or not... im sure can be argued forever!! But you can see at pro levels you still see those terran winning !!
I just assume its the high amount of micro ! Also they keep nerfing them so people are getting grumpy about it.
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On March 31 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:On March 31 2012 03:51 XquisiteWretch wrote:On March 30 2012 00:10 Sovern wrote:
I think that another major problem is that too many terrans rely on vikings to deal with collosus making your ground army weaker. you HAVE to have vikings to deal with colossus, otherwise they will just kite you all day, end of story Colossi don't kite. They don't deal damage until the end of their ray animation, which means, more or less, they're either moving or dealing damage - it is nearly impossible for them to be doing both, and if they are, they're only moving very, very little. What unit besides the pheonix can move and shot at the same time? Maybe I'm having a massive brain fart and am forgetting something, but to my knowledge every unit is "either moving or dealing damage". And I'm quite clueless as to how you think Collosi don't kite... Kiting is literally moving away from your target, usually with a long range attack, while staying on the very limit of your range so you avoid enemy fire.
Some units have a rather short attack animation compared to the attack cooldown, which means that you can spend a relatively long time walking them around before the attack cooldown is up again. Marines and Marauders are a good example of this. That's why stutter step is so effective with them, you only need to stand still for a little while for the M&M to shoot after which you can keep moving until the attack cooldown is up again.
Colossi have a rather long attack animation with the damage only being dealt if the animation completes. That means that you don't have much time to actually move between attacks unless you lose a lot of potential attacks.
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EPT
