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On March 22 2012 09:09 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 08:57 Bidj wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. The thing is, we are here to try to achieve balance in TvP, or at least "balance in micro needed to win fight among all levels of skill". That's it, that's about balance, not retribution. Some Terrans and Zergs were telling you to STFU when Protoss was UP ? That was stupid/not constructive because buffs were needed and their implementation helped P a lot (with adaptation, etc). So don't replicate this scheme and try to be constructive. I still think making charge a cast (would still be easy because of smartcasting) would help greatly to balance lower levels without influing on top level. Good advice. Just because some people were rude to you when your race was struggling, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same behavior. If you have some insight into the matchup you would like to share, perhaps some suggestions for Terrans to try, by all means, post away, but "stfu and get better," is not constructive. None of us want to go back to the days where Terran is overpowered. All we want is a fair and balanced matchup where a similar amount of effort must be expended on both sides throughout the game in order to achieve victory. One of the ideas I really like so far is to disable charge auto-cast. I think it would be good for the matchup if we gave Protoss more opportunities to micro and thus raise the skill ceiling. If I have to stutter step my bio, focus colossi with my vikings, emp with my ghosts or snipe hts, and macro at the same time, I don't see why Protoss can't have more battle responsibilities as well. Of course, that won't solve all the issues in TvP, but I think it's a small step in the right direction. Have there been any solid arguments against this proposition?
For discussion, how would charge cast? Right now it is currently an attack animation that triggers when you get in range. I don't think it would be practical for it to be a targeted spell, as melee units are completely retarded when told to target a specific unit. If you cast it, would it just increase your speed to "charge" for a set period of time? That would be an ok change, because I think I could do a lot more with "charge" boosted zealots.
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a lategame upgrade that makes your production buildings produce 25-33% faster might help
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
It's not simply a buff/nerf issue either. Look at the advancement of the map pool, there is a lot less scope for effective Terran non-committal pressure. Combined with the discovery of pretty robust, safe fast expand openings at the Protoss side of things, coupled to their already robust lategame, explains why the matchup is regarded as so damn difficult. I mean even the previously feared 1/1/1 has been neutered by most maps having an increased rush distance.
I think this has benefitted Zerg even more than the other two races, but it certainly affects the TvP matchup.
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On March 22 2012 09:24 EleanorRIgby wrote:
a lategame upgrade that makes your production buildings produce 25-33% faster might help
That's a horrible idea. Terran doesn't need to be able to produce units faster...Terran needs viable T3 (Thor/Raven/BC). Right now they are not viable, partially because feedback counters all 3 in TvP, and partially because they are crappy units. So Terran is forced to use the only thing that works all game long (bio), which is centered on T1 units.
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On March 22 2012 09:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:09 riff wrote:On March 22 2012 08:57 Bidj wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. The thing is, we are here to try to achieve balance in TvP, or at least "balance in micro needed to win fight among all levels of skill". That's it, that's about balance, not retribution. Some Terrans and Zergs were telling you to STFU when Protoss was UP ? That was stupid/not constructive because buffs were needed and their implementation helped P a lot (with adaptation, etc). So don't replicate this scheme and try to be constructive. I still think making charge a cast (would still be easy because of smartcasting) would help greatly to balance lower levels without influing on top level. Good advice. Just because some people were rude to you when your race was struggling, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same behavior. If you have some insight into the matchup you would like to share, perhaps some suggestions for Terrans to try, by all means, post away, but "stfu and get better," is not constructive. None of us want to go back to the days where Terran is overpowered. All we want is a fair and balanced matchup where a similar amount of effort must be expended on both sides throughout the game in order to achieve victory. One of the ideas I really like so far is to disable charge auto-cast. I think it would be good for the matchup if we gave Protoss more opportunities to micro and thus raise the skill ceiling. If I have to stutter step my bio, focus colossi with my vikings, emp with my ghosts or snipe hts, and macro at the same time, I don't see why Protoss can't have more battle responsibilities as well. Of course, that won't solve all the issues in TvP, but I think it's a small step in the right direction. Have there been any solid arguments against this proposition? For discussion, how would charge cast? Right now it is currently an attack animation that triggers when you get in range. I don't think it would be practical for it to be a targeted spell, as melee units are completely retarded when told to target a specific unit. If you cast it, would it just increase your speed to "charge" for a set period of time? That would be an ok change, because I think I could do a lot more with "charge" boosted zealots.
Probably the way Stim works, active Charge (but without HP/Shield loss of course), after X second and/or after the charge has been used, you have to cast it again.
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Weird thing, a day after I read this post (maybe 2 or 3 days ago), the majority of my games on NA masters are now TvT.
Craziest thing.
Sadly, most of them are quite awful and silly.
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On March 22 2012 09:09 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 08:57 Bidj wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. The thing is, we are here to try to achieve balance in TvP, or at least "balance in micro needed to win fight among all levels of skill". That's it, that's about balance, not retribution. Some Terrans and Zergs were telling you to STFU when Protoss was UP ? That was stupid/not constructive because buffs were needed and their implementation helped P a lot (with adaptation, etc). So don't replicate this scheme and try to be constructive. I still think making charge a cast (would still be easy because of smartcasting) would help greatly to balance lower levels without influing on top level. Good advice. Just because some people were rude to you when your race was struggling, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same behavior. If you have some insight into the matchup you would like to share, perhaps some suggestions for Terrans to try, by all means, post away, but "stfu and get better," is not constructive. None of us want to go back to the days where Terran is overpowered. All we want is a fair and balanced matchup where a similar amount of effort must be expended on both sides throughout the game in order to achieve victory. One of the ideas I really like so far is to disable charge auto-cast. I think it would be good for the matchup if we gave Protoss more opportunities to micro and thus raise the skill ceiling. If I have to stutter step my bio, focus colossi with my vikings, emp with my ghosts or snipe hts, and macro at the same time, I don't see why Protoss can't have more battle responsibilities as well. Of course, that won't solve all the issues in TvP, but I think it's a small step in the right direction. Have there been any solid arguments against this proposition?
Everyone would be happier if Blizzard made it so protosses had to micro charge. It would be more APM intensive, which is what terrans want, and would allow toss players to do more surrounding rather than just a-moving and hoping.
Unfortunately, Blizzard is going in the opposite direction, literally. A recent patch removed tosses ability to control charging zealots at all. We used to be able to change their direction while they charged. But the patch changed it so that if you issue your charging zealot any other command it immediately cancels the charge.
Therefore I wouldn't hold out for a non-autocast charge, as Blizzard has made it quite clear they don't want tosses microing their zealots...
Or voidrays for that matter, like when Blizzard made their charged damage significantly lower. This greatly lowered the incentive to spend a ton of APM both precharging voidrays and keeping them charged, through antics like quickly targeting each other every few feet to get to the enemy base charged. Remember when we saw those awesome voidray strategies where tosses would hallucinate a phoenix to target to keep the charge going? Now all we get is the occasional 3gate voidray all-in. They turned the most micro-intensive unit for toss from unbelievably exciting, into another boring "set it and forget it" unit.
Now obviously Blizzard was making a balance decision in each case, but I don't see any reason that they had to reduce the chances for micro. They obviously don't mind lowering the skill ceiling, and I can't stand it. If the stupid, slow, no-micro tempest is actually added in HotS, I'll probably leave the protoss race behind.
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On March 22 2012 09:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. Oh no I agree. Protoss players did improve. BUT buffs always help nicely. That's like back then when Zergs claimed to have "figured out" void ray openings in ZvP, even though they just received a huge root/uproot casting time buff, or figured out the death ball when they got the nice imba fungals (consequently nerfed a bit thereafter :D). Terran is the only race which got consistently only nerfed I think. For a long time, "figuring things out" for Terran meant starting to use a unit they didn't need before because all their shit raped the opposition easily enough. Then this unit was considered imbalanced and nerfed (think reaper, hellions, ghosts). Now maybe it's time to step back and notice that Terrans don't have that much many more clutch units in their arsenal left, and maybe some nerfs were over the top, leading to a race very hard to handle for noobs.
Buffs do rock. I think it's fair to say both Toss and Zerg needed them, and Terran did need a few nerfs.
I think Terrans arsenal is still very diverse to be honest ... And i'm not even sure it's a case of just having a clutch unit to sort everything out. I prefer terrans race design to Protoss ... Toss has to many clutch units that you need to rely on. Basically going a game without HTs or Colossus isn't very safe. You'll loose more than you'll win trying it.
Terrans have alot of versatile units overall i feel. I am probably wrong, but that's just looking at all 3 races from my opinion on design.
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To all the people thinking "adding more micro to protoss will solve the problem..."
You are SO WRONG, to add units with more micro, you must nerf the damage output/health of that unit, if it can be controlled and used better than that means the lategame will get EVEN stronger so don't be stupid.
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On March 22 2012 09:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:09 riff wrote:On March 22 2012 08:57 Bidj wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. The thing is, we are here to try to achieve balance in TvP, or at least "balance in micro needed to win fight among all levels of skill". That's it, that's about balance, not retribution. Some Terrans and Zergs were telling you to STFU when Protoss was UP ? That was stupid/not constructive because buffs were needed and their implementation helped P a lot (with adaptation, etc). So don't replicate this scheme and try to be constructive. I still think making charge a cast (would still be easy because of smartcasting) would help greatly to balance lower levels without influing on top level. Good advice. Just because some people were rude to you when your race was struggling, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same behavior. If you have some insight into the matchup you would like to share, perhaps some suggestions for Terrans to try, by all means, post away, but "stfu and get better," is not constructive. None of us want to go back to the days where Terran is overpowered. All we want is a fair and balanced matchup where a similar amount of effort must be expended on both sides throughout the game in order to achieve victory. One of the ideas I really like so far is to disable charge auto-cast. I think it would be good for the matchup if we gave Protoss more opportunities to micro and thus raise the skill ceiling. If I have to stutter step my bio, focus colossi with my vikings, emp with my ghosts or snipe hts, and macro at the same time, I don't see why Protoss can't have more battle responsibilities as well. Of course, that won't solve all the issues in TvP, but I think it's a small step in the right direction. Have there been any solid arguments against this proposition? For discussion, how would charge cast? Right now it is currently an attack animation that triggers when you get in range. I don't think it would be practical for it to be a targeted spell, as melee units are completely retarded when told to target a specific unit. If you cast it, would it just increase your speed to "charge" for a set period of time? That would be an ok change, because I think I could do a lot more with "charge" boosted zealots.
Like stimpack obviously?
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
On March 22 2012 09:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
To all the people thinking "adding more micro to protoss will solve the problem..."
You are SO WRONG, to add units with more micro, you must nerf the damage output/health of that unit, if it can be controlled and used better than that means the lategame will get EVEN stronger so don't be stupid.
Toss gateway units are already not particularly good on that basis and need forcefields/upgrades/higher tech support to be effective. Asking for more micro potential to separate out good players from bad, and to increase the skill ceiling of Protoss does not entail wholescale buffs
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On March 22 2012 09:45 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. Oh no I agree. Protoss players did improve. BUT buffs always help nicely. That's like back then when Zergs claimed to have "figured out" void ray openings in ZvP, even though they just received a huge root/uproot casting time buff, or figured out the death ball when they got the nice imba fungals (consequently nerfed a bit thereafter :D). Terran is the only race which got consistently only nerfed I think. For a long time, "figuring things out" for Terran meant starting to use a unit they didn't need before because all their shit raped the opposition easily enough. Then this unit was considered imbalanced and nerfed (think reaper, hellions, ghosts). Now maybe it's time to step back and notice that Terrans don't have that much many more clutch units in their arsenal left, and maybe some nerfs were over the top, leading to a race very hard to handle for noobs. Buffs do rock. I think it's fair to say both Toss and Zerg needed them, and Terran did need a few nerfs. I think Terrans arsenal is still very diverse to be honest ... And i'm not even sure it's a case of just having a clutch unit to sort everything out. I prefer terrans race design to Protoss ... Toss has to many clutch units that you need to rely on. Basically going a game without HTs or Colossus isn't very safe. You'll loose more than you'll win trying it. Terrans have alot of versatile units overall i feel. I am probably wrong, but that's just looking at all 3 races from my opinion on design.
MMMTVG is diverse? Because that's basically the most diverse set of units we make in every matchup, disregarding early reapers and mech, which is *** in TvP.
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^ We make banshees sometimes
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On March 22 2012 10:18 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 09:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. Oh no I agree. Protoss players did improve. BUT buffs always help nicely. That's like back then when Zergs claimed to have "figured out" void ray openings in ZvP, even though they just received a huge root/uproot casting time buff, or figured out the death ball when they got the nice imba fungals (consequently nerfed a bit thereafter :D). Terran is the only race which got consistently only nerfed I think. For a long time, "figuring things out" for Terran meant starting to use a unit they didn't need before because all their shit raped the opposition easily enough. Then this unit was considered imbalanced and nerfed (think reaper, hellions, ghosts). Now maybe it's time to step back and notice that Terrans don't have that much many more clutch units in their arsenal left, and maybe some nerfs were over the top, leading to a race very hard to handle for noobs. Buffs do rock. I think it's fair to say both Toss and Zerg needed them, and Terran did need a few nerfs. I think Terrans arsenal is still very diverse to be honest ... And i'm not even sure it's a case of just having a clutch unit to sort everything out. I prefer terrans race design to Protoss ... Toss has to many clutch units that you need to rely on. Basically going a game without HTs or Colossus isn't very safe. You'll loose more than you'll win trying it. Terrans have alot of versatile units overall i feel. I am probably wrong, but that's just looking at all 3 races from my opinion on design. MMMTVG is diverse? Because that's basically the most diverse set of units we make in every matchup, disregarding early reapers and mech, which is *** in TvP.
6 units in a composition is pretty diverse if you ask me.
Not to mention Hellions / Banshees and Ravens can be thrown into that.
I'm sorry i don't' actually understand what your point is..
And i also said that Terrans diversity is my opinion based off how i view game design, with respect to the other 2 races.
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On March 22 2012 07:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:52 Treehead wrote:
I find stutter step micro in TvP easier than blink micro in PvZ. Extreme minority. Unfortunately a rare personal opinion has no real significance. 1-1-1/2 base timing or essentially lose isn't much "room". Show nested quote +The misconception that protoss players are all microless cretins who play the game by a-moving on the minimap is just that: a misconception. To quote BeastyQT from this thread (a grandmaster player whose post is at least worth 50-100 normal posts on balance): Show nested quote +If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you.
There are two kinds of blink micro. In the first kind (the kind you're likely to see in TvP), P boxes a ton of stalkers, hit blinks and clicks away. In the second kind (the kind I was referring to), P selects each Stalker who takes more than 80 damage, hits blink and clicks away. In large and well managed engagements, this can take all of a koreans APM. I'd love to hear you argue that this is not hard and illustrates how terrible P is at microing things.
You say 1-1-1 like it is one build with one set of units. You know better.
Beastyqt is infamous for claiming terran is underpowered. Certainly his word as a pro is worth something, but 50-100 normal posts on balance.... is probably stretching it. You may as well take your view on balance from Idra.
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Can Beasty post a replay of him losing to a Protoss with 50-80 APM like he claimed?
Or is he just, I don't know...full of shit?
I'll believe it when I see it. Even at my diamond level, P I face have at least 75 Blizzard APM (not CPM, the one that doens't include tabbing spam).
User was warned for this post
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On March 22 2012 12:23 ZenithM wrote:
Can Beasty post a replay of him losing to a Protoss with 50-80 APM like he claimed?
Or is he just, I don't know...full of shit?
I'll believe it when I see it. Even at my diamond level, P I face have at least 75 Blizzard APM (not CPM, the one that doens't include tabbing spam).
its probably an exaggeration but the point remains the same. In TvP Terran has to play near perfectly and do much more macro and micro, while Protoss can turtle on 3 bases, get 3/3 and a deathball and then move out and end the game.
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I feel like it would help if Terran had stronger tier 3 easy to use units. as it is, you have to micro literally everything, you're working so much harder than the protoss
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On March 22 2012 09:42 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:09 riff wrote:On March 22 2012 08:57 Bidj wrote:On March 22 2012 08:45 Tingles wrote:On March 22 2012 08:39 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 08:34 Tingles wrote:
So i must say this thread reminds me of when Protoss and Zerg went through their respective shitty periods (sad zealot anyone?).
All i got told was "play better, you suck" or "use a warp prism" or "stop making excuses for your bad play"
I don't get how this is any different ... Terrans need to do something different now. I seem to remember the EXACT arguments about "bad design", "other race is a-move ezpz" etc etc with both Protoss and Zerg having the trouble.
STFU and play better. All 3 races are hard in their own UNIQUE ways. Stop making excuses that Terran is harder so you can feel better about losing.
You seem to forget that Protoss didn't simply play better just like that. They received a good number of buffs. Yep, and Protoss just sat back and complained and then suddenly buffs made them win. Of course i recognize that Toss got buffs, i'm not discrediting that to Protoss doing better. But they still had to actually play better ... it wasn't just like buffs = win ... the first buff was a warp prism buff right ? There was about a month or so after a warp prism buff where it was still the same, except warp prisms didn't die to a single marine. I'm also not saying that Terran has nothing to complain about ... it's hard, and i'm sure late game TvP is fucked. But i can't help but feel that we've been here before with the other races, and all i got was Terrans and Zergs telling me to STFU and play better. The thing is, we are here to try to achieve balance in TvP, or at least "balance in micro needed to win fight among all levels of skill". That's it, that's about balance, not retribution. Some Terrans and Zergs were telling you to STFU when Protoss was UP ? That was stupid/not constructive because buffs were needed and their implementation helped P a lot (with adaptation, etc). So don't replicate this scheme and try to be constructive. I still think making charge a cast (would still be easy because of smartcasting) would help greatly to balance lower levels without influing on top level. Good advice. Just because some people were rude to you when your race was struggling, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same behavior. If you have some insight into the matchup you would like to share, perhaps some suggestions for Terrans to try, by all means, post away, but "stfu and get better," is not constructive. None of us want to go back to the days where Terran is overpowered. All we want is a fair and balanced matchup where a similar amount of effort must be expended on both sides throughout the game in order to achieve victory. One of the ideas I really like so far is to disable charge auto-cast. I think it would be good for the matchup if we gave Protoss more opportunities to micro and thus raise the skill ceiling. If I have to stutter step my bio, focus colossi with my vikings, emp with my ghosts or snipe hts, and macro at the same time, I don't see why Protoss can't have more battle responsibilities as well. Of course, that won't solve all the issues in TvP, but I think it's a small step in the right direction. Have there been any solid arguments against this proposition? Everyone would be happier if Blizzard made it so protosses had to micro charge. It would be more APM intensive, which is what terrans want, and would allow toss players to do more surrounding rather than just a-moving and hoping. Unfortunately, Blizzard is going in the opposite direction, literally. A recent patch removed tosses ability to control charging zealots at all. We used to be able to change their direction while they charged. But the patch changed it so that if you issue your charging zealot any other command it immediately cancels the charge. Therefore I wouldn't hold out for a non-autocast charge, as Blizzard has made it quite clear they don't want tosses microing their zealots... Or voidrays for that matter, like when Blizzard made their charged damage significantly lower. This greatly lowered the incentive to spend a ton of APM both precharging voidrays and keeping them charged, through antics like quickly targeting each other every few feet to get to the enemy base charged. Remember when we saw those awesome voidray strategies where tosses would hallucinate a phoenix to target to keep the charge going? Now all we get is the occasional 3gate voidray all-in. They turned the most micro-intensive unit for toss from unbelievably exciting, into another boring "set it and forget it" unit. Now obviously Blizzard was making a balance decision in each case, but I don't see any reason that they had to reduce the chances for micro. They obviously don't mind lowering the skill ceiling, and I can't stand it. If the stupid, slow, no-micro tempest is actually added in HotS, I'll probably leave the protoss race behind.
Nice to see an honest protoss here talking not only about the balance, but make the game more fun
On March 22 2012 12:23 ZenithM wrote:
Can Beasty post a replay of him losing to a Protoss with 50-80 APM like he claimed?
Or is he just, I don't know...full of shit?
I'll believe it when I see it. Even at my diamond level, P I face have at least 75 Blizzard APM (not CPM, the one that doens't include tabbing spam).
He said it was a 80 APM a-move during the battle
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On March 22 2012 12:23 ZenithM wrote:
Can Beasty post a replay of him losing to a Protoss with 50-80 APM like he claimed?
Or is he just, I don't know...full of shit?
I'll believe it when I see it. Even at my diamond level, P I face have at least 75 Blizzard APM (not CPM, the one that doens't include tabbing spam).
Have you not learned that this thread is not about posting replays? That would ruin the purity of the thread.
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