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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 16:08 Ansinjunger wrote:
That's why people use increasingly harsh words, which is why this whole thing happened in the first place. Maybe this word in question won't matter in the future, and people will start using death threats as insults. Shrug it off? I don't think so. This is not an enlightened path.
Death threats show an intent of malicious actions. Calling somebody an "asshole" or "nigger" does not.
I guess calling somebody is stupid is what leads to people calling in bomb threats too?
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On March 10 2012 16:05 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:01 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 15:46 omnic wrote:On March 10 2012 15:36 Defacer wrote:
Don't you know that control the minds and hearts of all Black people? And I'm denying them the dignity of being insulted? Who has more control in this situation Two men are standing next to each other. The first man calls the other man an asshole. The second man becomes angry and calls the first man a douche in response. The first man does not give a fuck what the second man said and is able to walk away afterwards and have a great day. Meanwhile the angry man spends his entire day focusing on this argument he had earlier. I just think words shouldn't have such negative power over people, and I never said it rules over all black people(which I do believe is what you're saying in that first bit) In fact because that's not the case (as clearly demonstrated by the black posters we have that weighed in on the conversation so far) we should understand that this is not a big enough deal to cost a man his livelihood. We've officially jumped the shark o this thread. There is only three people left. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be in control of their emotions, or allow assholes to control them. I'm defending people's right to be offended by offensive people. There's plenty of Black guys that have a racist encounter but then go about their day. And these same guys think to themselves, "Wow -- what a racist prick. I would never watch a SC2 cast with that guy." Just because people have the dignity to not over-react doesn't mean that they are not offended, or make the person that crossed them less offensive. I agree that people have the right to be offended. I however do not believe that if you offend somebody else you should have your livelihood taken away. As an atheist that eats meat and has a few gay friends that idea does not bode well with me.
Alright, now I see the point you're trying to make.
If Alex's goal, ultimately, is for the SC2 community -- or at least EG -- to be as inclusive possible, I think Orb's past mistakes forced him to make a difficult decision.
You're right, you shouldn't lose your job just because you offend somebody -- unless it's your boss. And based on Alex's OP, I think he was geniunely offended.
It's his company. He could fire somebody if they fart too much or thinks their laugh is weird. Calling people niggers just because you're being cannon-rushed -- I think there's a lot of employers who would take issue with that.
I don't know if Orb deserved to lose his job. But I certainly understand why.
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Wtf this isn't even relevant to starcraft now, it's just a huge argument on if nigger is an offensive word T_T
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I'll try to say this once more. Many of your examples are irrelevant.
"Nigger" is so many more times offensive a word to use than "asshole," and much more offensive than bullying. It doesn't even matter if it's not physical and "words shouldn't hurt you, context should." That's not the point of this particular word.
Imagine if your entire race was forced into slavery, and "nigger" was the only word that was used to describe you and your entire race for several hundred years. It stripped you of your identity. It was made solely to put you down. Your white masters gave you their own names, ripped you from your homes, and destroyed your cultural identity. You are no one, but a "nigger."
Do you not see how ridiculous a word "nigger" is? To even utter it is to remind some people of one of the most horrifying crimes people have done to each other, just because of discrimination. "Jew," "faggot," and "hag" don't even carry around this kind of meaning because their effects are all but gone. However, there is still this huge cloud-thing over America for what they did in the past to blacks.
If you've ever studied black history and american history with an emphasis on slavery, you should know exactly what I mean. And you should know that certain words, like "nigger" should never be used except to remind yourself how horrific it is.
Please stop suggesting that Alex removed him for simply raging. The word is taboo in any form, especially in a professional setting.
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That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am.
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I don't know enough about Orb or anything really about this situation to have a truly valid opinion. However,
I wanted to start this post by saying that I think it's ridiculous to fire someone for something they did before they were employed by you, but then I realized that if someone dug up photos of me doing this, I would definitely be fired from my job with little recourse. Then again, I'm a public school teacher, not a Starcraft 2 commentator. I own a small business as well, and I don't think that I would dismiss one of my employees over this/similar situation. Ultimately I guess I disagree with Alex - bad words are bad words. F--/N-----/C---/T---/R-----, etc. There is no shortage of derogatory things people can call one another. Words have meaning and context, but they aren't racist. They simply are. People are racist. Words can be more hurtful or stronger than another, but they aren't racist.
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On March 10 2012 16:15 Defacer wrote:
Alright, now I see the point you're trying to make.
If Alex's goal, ultimately, is for the SC2 community -- or at least EG -- to be as inclusive possible, I think Orb's past mistakes forced him to make a difficult decision.
You're right, you shouldn't lose your job just because you offend somebody -- unless it's your boss. And based on Alex's OP, I think he was geniunely offended.
It's his company. He could fire somebody if they fart too much or think their laugh is weird. Calling people nigger's just because you're being cannon-rushed -- I think there's a lot of employers would take issue comfortable with that.
I don't know if Orb deserved to lose his job. But I certainly understand why.
I agree entirely with your point there that if you offend your boss you can expect to get fired. I just personally don't believe his boss was actually that offended (because as others have pointed out Idra has said things on many occasions at tournaments which i assume is when he's on his best behavior, and I assume what he says behind the scenes is way worse.) I could easily be wrong but to me it just does not look to be the case.
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On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am.
If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently.
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On March 10 2012 16:21 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:15 Defacer wrote:
Alright, now I see the point you're trying to make.
If Alex's goal, ultimately, is for the SC2 community -- or at least EG -- to be as inclusive possible, I think Orb's past mistakes forced him to make a difficult decision.
You're right, you shouldn't lose your job just because you offend somebody -- unless it's your boss. And based on Alex's OP, I think he was geniunely offended.
It's his company. He could fire somebody if they fart too much or think their laugh is weird. Calling people nigger's just because you're being cannon-rushed -- I think there's a lot of employers would take issue comfortable with that.
I don't know if Orb deserved to lose his job. But I certainly understand why.
I agree entirely with your point there that if you offend your boss you can expect to get fired. I just personally don't believe his boss was actually that offended (because as others have pointed out Idra has said things on many occasions at tournaments which i assume is when he's on his best behavior.) I could easily be wrong but to me it just does not look to be the case.
Well maybe that's because his boss is more worried against racism against black people than he is about Idra's racism against French-Canadians. I think that's racist, and I'm offended! And he obviously doesn't care about IdrA calling people faggots!
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On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently.
Personally, I don't let the fact that my grandfather was a racist fuck let me be manipulated into molding my beliefs and attitude in life after his. If we were all so greatly effected by our grand parents the world would be a very different place.
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On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently.
Someone else might. Me? I don't think so, but I don't know. I guess I could have turned out badly if my family rammed me with their grudges against society.
Let's plant a seed of hatred in that kid just to make sure he takes the past and shoves it in his personality even though it doesn't belong there.
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On March 10 2012 16:26 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Personally, I don't let the fact that my grandfather was a racist fuck let me be manipulated into molding my beliefs and attitude in life after his. If we were all so greatly effected by our grand parents the world would be a very different place.
Well my grandfather was a POW in WW2 and I still hold a grudge against Nazis
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On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am.
It does define and it has defined who you are, whether you like it or not. Ignoring that is ridiculous. You don't have to identify yourself with something for it to affect you. I don't identify myself as being Chinese, but there's no doubt that I am who I am because I have had Chinese influences. You can be unique, but that doesn't mean you haven't been affected by it.
Do you even realize why people have to argue "I don't identify myself by the color of my skin?" Think about it.
Anyways, that's besides the point. I'm saying that the word itself carries hatred. Pure discriminatory hatred that subdued an entire race for hundreds of years. Hatred. Anyone who's studied black history and slavery understands what the word means and what it meant. And people have become desensitized to its meaning because people don't care anymore, but that doesn't mean it's not as bad. It's a horrible word. And using it is horrible.
Again - words aren't racist. Most words aren't bad. This one word is, and maybe a few others. But this one is the worst word by far. Probably the worst word in the history of the English language. There can be a very strong case for that.
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On March 10 2012 16:29 Blisse wrote:
It does define and it has defined who you are, whether you like it or not. Ignoring that is ridiculous. You don't have to identify yourself with something for it to affect you. I don't identify myself as being Chinese, but there's no doubt that I am who I am because I have had Chinese influences. You can be unique, but that doesn't mean you haven't been affected by it.
Do you even realize why people have to argue "I don't identify myself by the color of my skin?" Think about it.
Anyways, that's besides the point. I'm saying that the word itself carries hatred. Pure discriminatory hatred that subdued an entire race for hundreds of years. Hatred. Anyone who's studied black history and slavery understands what the word means and what it meant. And people have become desensitized to its meaning because people don't care anymore, but that doesn't mean it's not as bad. It's a horrible word. And using it is horrible.
Again - words aren't racist. Most words aren't bad. This one word is, and maybe a few others. But this one is the worst word by far. Probably the worst word in the history of the English language. There can be a very strong case for that.
This is very true, This is why whenever somebody calls out "fag" I think they are looking for some kindling for a fire. After all the meaning of words never changes with time and that's what that term once meant.
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On March 10 2012 16:28 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:26 omnic wrote:On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Personally, I don't let the fact that my grandfather was a racist fuck let me be manipulated into molding my beliefs and attitude in life after his. If we were all so greatly effected by our grand parents the world would be a very different place. Well my grandfather was a POW in WW2 and I still hold a grudge against Nazis
Should their children apologize to you brah?
On March 10 2012 16:29 Blisse wrote:
Anyways, that's besides the point. I'm saying that the word itself carries hatred. Pure discriminatory hatred that subdued an entire race for hundreds of years. Hatred. Anyone who's studied black history and slavery understands what the word means and what it meant. And people have become desensitized to its meaning because people don't care anymore, but that doesn't mean it's not as bad. It's a horrible word. And using it is horrible.
Again - words aren't racist. Most words aren't bad. This one word is, and maybe a few others. But this one is the worst word by far. Probably the worst word in the history of the English language. There can be a very strong case for that.
Meh, I don't see how that's outside of the realm of "Blisse's opinion". The word carries nothing more than a definition and a sonority. What people do with it is what matters (or doesn't matter).
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On March 10 2012 16:27 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Someone else might. Me? I don't think so, but I don't know. I guess I could have turned out badly if my family rammed me with their grudges against society. Let's plant a seed of hatred in that kid just to make sure he takes the past and shoves it in his personality even though it doesn't belong there.
I'm not talking about about black grandparents teaching their grandchildren to hate white people
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On March 10 2012 16:33 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:27 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Someone else might. Me? I don't think so, but I don't know. I guess I could have turned out badly if my family rammed me with their grudges against society. Let's plant a seed of hatred in that kid just to make sure he takes the past and shoves it in his personality even though it doesn't belong there. I'm not talking about about black grandparents teaching their grandchildren to hate white people
maybe i misunderstood but what I got from it is that black grandparents teach their grandchildren to act like they(whites) are the same as the people who mistreated their race in the past. I'm most likely wrong though. Care to explain?
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On March 10 2012 16:33 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:27 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Someone else might. Me? I don't think so, but I don't know. I guess I could have turned out badly if my family rammed me with their grudges against society. Let's plant a seed of hatred in that kid just to make sure he takes the past and shoves it in his personality even though it doesn't belong there. I'm not talking about about black grandparents teaching their grandchildren to hate white people
I know you're not, but what kind of feeling does a black person have when they cultivate their grandparent's (real) negative sentiment toward the very people who abused them?
It's not going to be a focused sentiment, it can only be anger.
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On March 10 2012 16:32 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:28 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:26 omnic wrote:On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Personally, I don't let the fact that my grandfather was a racist fuck let me be manipulated into molding my beliefs and attitude in life after his. If we were all so greatly effected by our grand parents the world would be a very different place. Well my grandfather was a POW in WW2 and I still hold a grudge against Nazis Should their children apologize to you brah?
No, why would I care?
Seems as if someone asked you to apologize about slavery and you're mad about it. Trust me, I don't buy into all that politically correct bullshit
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On March 10 2012 16:36 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:33 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:27 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 16:24 iloveAthene wrote:On March 10 2012 16:18 Djzapz wrote:
That's just an opinion Blisse... It really is.
Especially since "my entire race being put to slavery" years before my birth would be fucking meaningless to me, given that I don't identify myself by the color of my skin. My place is right now in this world - and while the history of my ancestors is not irrelevant, it shouldn't directly define who I am. If your grandparents, who you're very close with WERE identified by the the color of their skin when they were your age you might feel differently. Someone else might. Me? I don't think so, but I don't know. I guess I could have turned out badly if my family rammed me with their grudges against society. Let's plant a seed of hatred in that kid just to make sure he takes the past and shoves it in his personality even though it doesn't belong there. I'm not talking about about black grandparents teaching their grandchildren to hate white people maybe i misunderstood but what I got from it is that black grandparents teach their grandchildren to act like they(whites) are the same as the people who mistreated their race in the past. I'm most likely wrong though. Care to explain?
Not at all, the grandchildren would probably just learn how real racism is and they'd really hate the word "nigger"
yeah, I know we all know racism is bad, no ones arguing that.
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