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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 13:12 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:36 s_side wrote:
I am completely ashamed that this is what we have come to as a society (internet or otherwise).
What is truly abhorrent in this world? The fact that there are wide swathes of humanity living in complete squalor. The fact that most people on earth do not enjoy freedom of speech or freedom of assembly. The fact that there are many for whom hard work is NOT a gateway to a prosperous (or even marginal) existence.
The false outrage from white suburbanites about words like "nigger" does not only devalue the issues behind the language, but it devalues the entire message of equality.
I can't imagine many are surprised that the OP was a "Black Studies" major. It reads EXACTLY as anyone with any experience with this type of nonsense would expect. We're not arguing what the very-wery most worst things in the world are, as if that is some absolves people of bad behavior. That's not much of an argument.
We're arguing about the repercussions of using a word. We're arguing about the validity of taking away a person's livelihood due to using said word.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in making certain words taboo. It preserves the ideas (in the case of the word "nigger") that have come to be associated with the word and gives them credence that they don't deserve.
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On March 10 2012 14:37 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. The difference here is you are not a victim, you were not raped, you were not called a nigger and neither were the people complaining in this thread. Ask yourself, what are the chances that orb got fired because a black person was offended by the word, what are the chances that the guy orb called a nigger was offended by it and complained? If that's not the case then your analogy doesn't work. p.s. I love how the posts that get ignored the most in these threads tend to come from people who point out they are black. Stay classy white people.
Um, I reserve the right to be offended even when I'm not the victim. I don't know about you, but I don't need someone to treat me like shit to understand that treating people like shit is wrong.
Sheesh.
Orb didn't get fired because he offended a specific person, and that person complained. He got fired because Alex thought his behaviour was offensive, and something he wasn't in the mood to defend.
I don't blame him. I don't want to have to explain to my wife, or my pal, or anyone else outside the community, why Orb's behaviour should be considered 'okay' because Orb's 'mad' and his opponent is 'cheesing' and the stranger he's berating isn't actually Black.
Think a moment about how bad a position Orb put EG in.
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On March 10 2012 14:45 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:34 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 10 2012 14:32 Gardel wrote:
It´s not so much the fact that he said the N word, it´s the fact that he lied, and he tryed to make everyone a fool thinking that it was some of his "friends" that said that. He lost all my respect to him right there.
When was it proven that he lied? I have as of yet to see anyone proved that he lied yet...>_> You'd think his "friend" would've stepped up and claimed responsibility by now or Orb himself would've named him. Funny how that "friend" continues to remain anonymous. How convenient.
i think it is very clear that he is lying about this. how can no one see what a fake person he was/is and forever will be? he is the kind of personality that is not needed in a community like sc2. honesty should always stand in top of everything
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On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions.
First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages.
I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting.
I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that.
I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so.
Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more?
What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway.
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why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO.
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On March 10 2012 14:53 LamaMitHut wrote:
why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO.
Did you look at the OP where at the top at the very beginning is a link to Alex's response to idra?
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On March 10 2012 14:53 LamaMitHut wrote:
why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO.
But zealot timings are gay. Those zealots would be having a circle-jerk if they weren't denying expansions.
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On March 10 2012 14:53 LamaMitHut wrote:
why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO.
Idra is a lot more valuable. No one is going to complain to the sponsors about Idra, the player who is half the reason EG got some of those sponsers to begin with. Hell, before HuK and Puma came, Idra basically held the entire team on his shoulders. For that - he gets cart blanch to say / do whatever he wants. Incontrol may be a figurehead, but if he said something like that he'd be more likely to be removed than Idra. Granted, Incontrol has always been the worst player on the team so losing him wouldn't be that big of a deal imo. I don't even understand how he can call himself a "pro".
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On March 10 2012 14:49 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:37 omnic wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. The difference here is you are not a victim, you were not raped, you were not called a nigger and neither were the people complaining in this thread. Ask yourself, what are the chances that orb got fired because a black person was offended by the word, what are the chances that the guy orb called a nigger was offended by it and complained? If that's not the case then your analogy doesn't work. p.s. I love how the posts that get ignored the most in these threads tend to come from people who point out they are black. Stay classy white people. Um, I reserve the right to be offended even when I'm not the victim. I don't know about you, but I don't need someone to treat me like shit to understand that treating people like shit is wrong. Sheesh. Orb didn't get fired because he offended a specific person, and that person complained. He got fired because Alex thought his behaviour was offensive, and something he wasn't in the mood to defend. I don't blame him. I don't want to have to explain to my wife, or my pal, or anyone else outside the community, why Orb's behaviour should be considered 'okay' because Orb's 'mad' and his opponent is 'cheesing' and the stranger he's berating isn't actually Black. Think a moment about how bad a position Orb put EG in.
*rolls eyes* I wasn't saying you can't be offended even though you're not the one being wronged what i'm saying is if you think you're co worker was wronged but they don't give a shit then it's not your place to go to the boss. Can you guess why? Because you're a third party you don't have proper fucking context, and context -always- matters and you're saying you understand that context better than those that actually experienced it.
Maybe you're right though and orb should be fired. He should have his lively hood taken away by something he did in the past. In fact, in the future, when he gets a new job he should always be terminated soon after because people on the internet (who were not involved in the original situation) complain about what happened. Hopefully Orb can never hold a job again because he called somebody nigger once over the internet in a fit of rage and he starves to death because of it.
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On March 10 2012 14:53 LamaMitHut wrote:
why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO.
I was watching IdrA live one day when he said something like "I have nothing against Canadians, but French-Canadians, I don't know, something's off about them." He seemed pretty disgusted with us French-Canadians. My mom is one of those filthy things, apparently.
That's full blown racism (against me) - although frankly I didn't care very much. That said, it's much, much worse than using the word "nigger" with no racist intention.
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On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway.
I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them.
I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired.
So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal.
I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate it from it's use to discriminate against Blacks.
You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive?
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On March 10 2012 15:00 omnic wrote:
Maybe you're right though and orb should be fired. He should have his lively hood taken away by something he did in the past. In fact, in the future, when he gets a new job he should always be terminated soon after because people on the internet (who were not involved in the original situation) complain about what happened. Hopefully Orb can never hold a job again because he called somebody nigger once over the internet in a fit of rage and he starves to death because of it.
Oh yeah, you keep building that straw man argument.
I've said repeatedly I think Orb has a lot of potential and expect him to bounce back. Also I think firing him was a harsh consequence, but I respect and understand it.
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On March 10 2012 14:57 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:53 LamaMitHut wrote:
why is idra allowed to say stuff like "He is french-canadian ! so he´s gonna fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else GAY"?
Getting rid of Orb and keeping Idra is the joke of the century IMO. But zealot timings are gay. Those zealots would be having a circle-jerk if they weren't denying expansions.
People like you get so butthurt about people using the word nigger but think using gay and faggot as an insulting term is OK to joke about. Pretty hypocritical there.
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On March 10 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway. I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them. I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired. So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal. I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate from it's use to discriminate against Blacks. You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive?
cracker
honky
whitey
white trash
Yaknow what those words have in common? They are racist terms for white people that everybody knows is supposed to be offensive. You know what else? Nobody really gives a shit if you call them any of these words. Personally I rather like that as a white person a fucking word doesn't have that kind of power over me. Maybe thats a perk only white people get though.
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On March 10 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway. I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them. I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired. So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal. I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate from it's use to discriminate against Blacks. You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive?
Welp, we're going to have to agree to disagree I think. It's clear that you have good intentions - I don't know that you would say the same about me, but I really do =). I really think that my perspective would allow for a quicker way to put racism behind us.
Cheers!
Note***: Just to make sure we're clear, I do think the word "nigger" is a very bad thing when it's used with a racist sentiment behind it.
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In my opinion firing people over a mistake pointed out by some random guy on the internet is low. That reminds me of an employee who got fired for posting stuff about his mean boss on facebook.
But the main issue is clearly that some people have turned a small mistake that should be handled privately into a full blown witch hunt destined to create drama for the sake of drama. it's sad.
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On March 10 2012 15:12 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway. I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them. I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired. So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal. I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate from it's use to discriminate against Blacks. You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive? cracker honky whitey white trash Yaknow what those words have in common? They are racist terms for white people that everybody knows is supposed to be offensive. You know what else? Nobody really gives a shit if you call them any of these words. Personally I rather like that as a white person a fucking word doesn't have that kind of power over me. Maybe thats a perk only white people get though.
It's a perk that the winning team gets, yes.
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On March 10 2012 15:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway. I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them. I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired. So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal. I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate from it's use to discriminate against Blacks. You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive? Welp, we're going to have to agree to disagree I think. It's clear that you have good intentions - I don't know that you would say the same about me, but I really do =). I really think that my perspective would allow for a quicker way to put racism behind us. Cheers! Note***: Just to make sure we're clear, I do think the word "nigger" is a very bad thing when it's used with a racist sentiment behind it.
Cheers, no worries.
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On March 10 2012 15:12 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 14:53 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 14:31 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 13:37 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 13:26 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:
Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it.
Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. I rewrote your paragraph: "The fact that we have chosen to hate the word "nigger", and what it represents, is arbitrary. The Western world has a long and dark history of enslavement, murder and mass genocide -- such as the Aztecs, an entire civilization we wiped out with very few survivors. Where is the moral outrage? There is none -- they don't have the means to victimize themselves because they're all dead. So we're passive about it. We ignore this injustice." Is this what you're trying to say, lazy pants? Well almost. Mine had character though. Still, strange that you chose to dismiss it - you do understand it. That said, the descendants of indigenous people are still around, they just don't have lobbies to make us realize how shitty we've been and still are to them. It's even worse, perhaps much worse than how black people were treated. I made that example just to show how artificial is the stigma around the word "nigger", but it also brings up another questions, doesn't it? Saying that people shouldn't be outraged because a) other people have a greater right to be outraged, but have failed to communicate it or b) there other things to be outraged about, and if you're not outraged about everything equally your being disingenuous is just a silly argument. Ex: A woman gets routinely sexually harassed at work, and her and her co-workers goes to her boss to complain. The boss retorts, "But people get raped in African regimes everyday. What's about those people?" Come on, man. Is there a stigma around the word nigger, and racism against Black People? Yes. It's it unfair that other forms of discrimination are less or poorly represented? Yes. Should people do something about that? Of course. Should people do less about racism against Blacks or be less offended? No. I don't think you're crazy, but your quest for some form of perfect, intellectual purity and integrity is leading to weird conclusions. First let me clarify my opinion. I view "racism against black people" and the word "nigger" as distinct issues. Whereas racism against black people is always very bad, the word "nigger", when used with no racist sentiment, is not an event worthy of 150+ pages. I disagree with the conclusion that you give to the problem I'm presenting. I've made the same argument you're making many times, and it's true - just because bigger problems exist does not mean that we should ignore* the "smaller" problems. However, I'm not saying that racism against black people should be ignored because racism against Amerindians is a bigger issue, far from that. I'm saying that the stigma around the word "nigger" should be reduced. The point of the comparison was not to trivialize racism, my intention was to trivialize the word by demonstrating why it's such a loaded term - and wrongly so. Lastly, I think it's strange of you to say that American natives have "failed to communicate" their problems. Aren't we the ones who are failing to recognize the problems of a population against which we literally committed genocide. Let's not forget that after committing genocide, we made sure to keep them down. So how would they succeed at communicating their problem according to you - should they beg some more? What would we say again? My guess: Sorry, it's recession time - it's tough. We killed enough of you that you don't have any political power. Enjoy the brand new highway. I don't think the word nigger should be trivialized. Or Chink. Or faggot. Or whatever historically offensive term. Personally, I have no taste for this new-fangled fashion to try to co-opt these slurs for little to no reason. If anything, it doesn't mitigate the impact of the word to those it offends, it just makes the word more pervasive and provide some kind of false amnesty for people that enjoy the taboo of using them. I'm not going to disagree that it's everyones responsibility to fight against inequity and persecution, and it's a shame. But then again, I'm not sure how the world's injustices are relevant to 'the injustice' of Orb getting fired. So really, the only thing we disagree on is whether the word 'nigger' is a big deal. I say it is, particularly in the manner that Orb used it, and you can't just disassociate from it's use to discriminate against Blacks. You say it 'kind of' is, but isn't there a whole other whack a shit that's just as offensive? cracker honky whitey white trash Yaknow what those words have in common? They are racist terms for white people that everybody knows is supposed to be offensive. You know what else? Nobody really gives a shit if you call them any of these words. Personally I rather like that as a white person a fucking word doesn't have that kind of power over me. Maybe thats a perk only white people get though.
We run the fucking world. We couldn't care less what everyone calls us
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EPT
