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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 14:45 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:34 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 10 2012 14:32 Gardel wrote:
It´s not so much the fact that he said the N word, it´s the fact that he lied, and he tryed to make everyone a fool thinking that it was some of his "friends" that said that. He lost all my respect to him right there.
When was it proven that he lied? I have as of yet to see anyone proved that he lied yet...>_> You'd think his "friend" would've stepped up and claimed responsibility by now or Orb himself would've named him. Funny how that "friend" continues to remain anonymous. How convenient.
Exactly this, thank you for saving me the time to writeup. Incredible how some people are so naive.
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Everyone is different I guess. If it were me I couldn't care less about what anyone says, offensive or not, just need to suck it up and not care. But that's just me.
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On March 10 2012 17:20 captainshards wrote:
Firstly, let me say that i do not believe any race to be superior to others. Even if you could prove inherent strengths and weaknesses genetically, and trace them to certain races etc i still would not be able to regard one race as "better" than another. And honestly, i wouldnt care to point it out or even take note of it either. I am an individual. I worry about what im doing and what i stand for. Whether all races are equal or not means nothing to me, my focus is on my own personal life and goals etc. And when i encounter other human beings i look upon them as simply another idividual with their own focus and their own goals. I cant be bothered with what color or sex or background they come from. That being said, scientifically, preference for ones own race and family is a well documented human universal, spanning all cultures, and all time. Take from that what you will. If a black man prefers to sit with other black men at lunch break instead of me (white guy), you will not find me being offended in any way, nor will i regard him as a racist. If i overhear him call a white man a cracker or some other slur for white people, i will not assume he is a racist. The greatest freedom i can give to my fellow man is the freedom to learn for himself about the world around him. To live by example and let him see that it is safe and actually awesome, to sit with others not of your exact cultural background. I would rather make people who fear what i am come around in time and realize there is nothing to fear through positive influence, rather than restrict them and tell them like a dictator that fearing me is wrong or that they absolutely must see me as their equal. This would be my personal preferred approach.
I like EG, and i like idra and geoff etcetc, but i cannot stand Alex anymore. He makes me want to hate EG. Do me a favor Alex, dont take your personal agenda and tell me what esports needs or tell me what the "community" needs. Dont even tell me a single thing about "community". Im getting sick and tired of hearing about what SC NEEDS to grow or to improve. If people want to make comfortable livings out of it and grow it up to a normal sport like football thats fine. But just remember that some of us simply just played Starcraft, and loved it. I wasnt looking for a buddy buddy feeling when i starting playing and watching replays and eventually vods then streams all those years ago in BW days. I watched it for the games and the high level of play. I dont care about feeling like a big entity with influence and power in society. I dont care about if someones girlfriend thinks SC is socially acceptable or not. I dont even care if its politically correct. Dont tell me what SC and competitive RTS is. Dont define "community" for me and tell me what it needs to be legit. Because to me, it was just as legit or more when it was a couple thousand nerds gathered around a 240p korean cast stream at 5 am.
Stop telling me what esports "needs". Dont speak for me. Pursue your own vision for sure, and good luck to you, but dont tell me what the thing i love and have loved for 11 years "needs" to be legitimate.
what esports needs? You know that like every outspoken person is telling us what esports needs. You know why? because they want to make it legitimate, because their job depens on it. Without growth, without sponsors and audience, there would be only very little left. We wouldn't even have 1/10 of tournamets today and even less price money. You can say that you don't care about that, but the players and Teams do.
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On March 10 2012 17:28 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:45 Hrrrrm wrote:On March 10 2012 14:34 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 10 2012 14:32 Gardel wrote:
It´s not so much the fact that he said the N word, it´s the fact that he lied, and he tryed to make everyone a fool thinking that it was some of his "friends" that said that. He lost all my respect to him right there.
When was it proven that he lied? I have as of yet to see anyone proved that he lied yet...>_> You'd think his "friend" would've stepped up and claimed responsibility by now or Orb himself would've named him. Funny how that "friend" continues to remain anonymous. How convenient. Exactly this, thank you for saving me the time to writeup. Incredible how some people are so naive.
Please tell me your not an American.....
Convenient doesn't mean guilt....
So quick to witch-hunt... I fear for our younger generation.
I don't blame you though, I blame myself for not being active and educating others as much as I should of been.
Please since I've failed you take the time to look up Circumstantial evidence and how it impacts our courts and society as well. Then Read up on the Salem witch trials to put context to what you're about to learn.
Edit: Or now that I think about it the Spanish inquisition would be another good example for context.
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Really sad to hear that it has come to this - I am from Denmark, and personally I don't put that much weight on the n----- term, nor the f----t term, however I believe it's because in countries like USA, rascism is a very very big deal, where in countries like Denmark, rascism of course is looked upon with disgust, but still isn't such a big deal, as we are rarely encountered by it in our daily lives.
So when I read Orbs statement, I 100% felt how he was truly sorry about this coincidence. However after having read this post I do think that the decision to dismiss Orb is fair enough. But I do hope, as many other in the SC community, that Orbs actions will be forgotten in time, and that he wont be "expelled" from the community. I believe in second chances, and I think that Orb deserves this.
However, what I do not understand, is people complaining directly to EG sponsors. I know that to some racism is a big deal, and should be dealt with, but that is just not the way to do it, if you want a continiued growing SC community. Please calm your minds and instead contact CEO's and such in the teams. If the management in the regarding team does not respond to this, or just ignores what the community thinks, then you could complain to the sponsors. But this actually angered me even more than the actual case with Orb. Do make second thoughts and calm yourselves before doing this, so we can keep making SC grow and become even better!
Regards.
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Incidentally, why are black people 'allowed' to use the n-word yet whenever anybody from any other demographic uses it they are immediately labelled as racist? Isn't the whole concept of one demographic being able to say or do something and it be accepted, yet when another demographic says or does the exact same thing they are almost stoned to death inherently racist in itself? Does racism only matter when it is directed towards a traditionally oppressed minority group?
Also if the n-word is so offensive, why do black people use it amongst themselves anyway? I guess you could argue that the meaning of it has changed over time, yet there are many people who insist it is still a terribly offensive word.
Just trying to understand the thought process. Also I'm not trying to condone using the word either, I don't use it and truthfully can't remember ever using it.
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Alex, if you find the word n----r as repulsive as you described, how do you feel about The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn being taught in US schools?
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On March 10 2012 18:04 Ryder. wrote:
Incidentally, why are black people 'allowed' to use the n-word yet whenever anybody from any other demographic uses it they are immediately labelled as racist? Isn't the whole concept of one demographic being able to say or do something and it be accepted, yet when another demographic says or does the exact same thing they are almost stoned to death inherently racist in itself? Does racism only matter when it is directed towards a traditionally oppressed minority group?
Also if the n-word is so offensive, why do black people use it amongst themselves anyway? I guess you could argue that the meaning of it has changed over time, yet there are many people who insist it is still a terribly offensive word.
Just trying to understand the thought process. Also I'm not trying to condone using the word either, I don't use it and truthfully can't remember ever using it.
The word your looking for is Double Standard
double standard
— n
a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another
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...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community  .
This part along with your twitter comments addressing IdrA is what I find confusing. It seems that you feel "f----t" and "n----r" should be equally condemnable, yet you release Orb for using "n----r" before ever being contracted by EG, while you admit that IrdA only "hears from me" whenever he uses "f----t" while being a direct representative of EG.
For the record, I don't have a problem with how this was handled, it just seems odd that similar instances are treated differently.
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On March 10 2012 18:22 JoeStevens wrote:Show nested quote +...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community . This part along with your twitter comments addressing IdrA is what I find confusing. It seems that you feel "f----t" and "n----r" should be equally condemnable, yet you release Orb for using "n----r" before ever being contracted by EG, while you admit that IrdA only "hears from me" whenever he uses "f----t" while being a direct representative of EG. For the record, I don't have a problem with how this was handled, it just seems odd that similar instances are treated differently.
There is a slight difference between Orb and Idra though. One is a relatively newly reqruited caster for one of their not-so-big tournaments. The other is one of their star players, who continues to be incredibly popular, despite acting like a little brat.
On top of that there was huge pressure from the comunity to do something about the orb incident. I would pretty much guarantee you that if Idra did something which triggered a similar pitch-fork reaction from the comunity he would be fired as well. But so far he hasn't. Sure he says stupid/offensive shit, but too many people love him for it. I guess he just pulls it off.
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I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later.
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On March 10 2012 18:33 bLoeB wrote:
I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later.
EG invested much time, money and work for Idra. No way they would fire him. The only thing they would do is a little punishment. It's better trying to change Idra himself (which EG did).
Now if Idra just joined EG 1 week ago and would say these things, that would be a different story
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On March 10 2012 18:10 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:04 Ryder. wrote:
Incidentally, why are black people 'allowed' to use the n-word yet whenever anybody from any other demographic uses it they are immediately labelled as racist? Isn't the whole concept of one demographic being able to say or do something and it be accepted, yet when another demographic says or does the exact same thing they are almost stoned to death inherently racist in itself? Does racism only matter when it is directed towards a traditionally oppressed minority group?
Also if the n-word is so offensive, why do black people use it amongst themselves anyway? I guess you could argue that the meaning of it has changed over time, yet there are many people who insist it is still a terribly offensive word.
Just trying to understand the thought process. Also I'm not trying to condone using the word either, I don't use it and truthfully can't remember ever using it. The word your looking for is Double Standard double standard — n a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another
Double standards go hand in hand with racism. Racism is the cause, a double standard is the outcome. Perhaps double standard was a more appropriate term, but it still doesn't change the core of my argument/questions.
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On March 10 2012 18:37 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:33 bLoeB wrote:
I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later. EG invested much time, money and work for Idra. No way they would fire him. The only thing they would do is a little punishment. It's better trying to change Idra himself (which EG did). Now if Idra just joined EG 1 week ago and would say these things, that would be a different story
I also had that thought and i think its true. But that just means im right about EG, they dont really care about the language their employess use. Because if EG is really commited to that, they would have fired him along time ago.
Edit: Another thing, apparently they try to change him and thats good. But their motivation is obviously running a succesful business model (and thats not an evil thing to do but they should just be honest about their motivations)
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On March 10 2012 18:41 bLoeB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:37 Hardigan wrote:On March 10 2012 18:33 bLoeB wrote:
I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later. EG invested much time, money and work for Idra. No way they would fire him. The only thing they would do is a little punishment. It's better trying to change Idra himself (which EG did). Now if Idra just joined EG 1 week ago and would say these things, that would be a different story I also had that thought and i think its true. But that just means im right about EG, they dont really care about the language their employess use. Because if EG is really commited to that, they would have fired him along time ago.
but they do care. Have you seen Idra when he was still in bw? He improved a lot when it comes to language.
They were working on it and AG still does and that's why he said you should contact him, when he says something like that (him, not the sponsors. We don't want to scare away sponsors, that would be terrible for everyone).
Would he fire Idra if he would use it again? probably not, because of the investment and Idra's fame. But EG would coreect him none the less
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On March 10 2012 18:49 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:41 bLoeB wrote:On March 10 2012 18:37 Hardigan wrote:On March 10 2012 18:33 bLoeB wrote:
I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later. EG invested much time, money and work for Idra. No way they would fire him. The only thing they would do is a little punishment. It's better trying to change Idra himself (which EG did). Now if Idra just joined EG 1 week ago and would say these things, that would be a different story I also had that thought and i think its true. But that just means im right about EG, they dont really care about the language their employess use. Because if EG is really commited to that, they would have fired him along time ago. but they do care. Have you seen Idra when he was still in bw? He improved a lot when it comes to language. They were working on it and AG still does and that's why he said you should contact him, when he says something like that (him, not the sponsors. We don't want to scare away sponsors, that would be terrible for everyone). Would he fire Idra if he would use it again? probably not, because of the investment and Idra's fame. But EG would coreect him none the less
Well i see what you are saying here, but i didnt said they dont care about it, i said they didnt really care about it. And by that i mean the obivously different and unfair treatment that they give to orb/idra. But maybe thats just me. At this point i could probably only repeat myself about the commitment that i think EG has about Manners and Language.
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On March 10 2012 18:40 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:10 SayGen wrote:On March 10 2012 18:04 Ryder. wrote:
Incidentally, why are black people 'allowed' to use the n-word yet whenever anybody from any other demographic uses it they are immediately labelled as racist? Isn't the whole concept of one demographic being able to say or do something and it be accepted, yet when another demographic says or does the exact same thing they are almost stoned to death inherently racist in itself? Does racism only matter when it is directed towards a traditionally oppressed minority group?
Also if the n-word is so offensive, why do black people use it amongst themselves anyway? I guess you could argue that the meaning of it has changed over time, yet there are many people who insist it is still a terribly offensive word.
Just trying to understand the thought process. Also I'm not trying to condone using the word either, I don't use it and truthfully can't remember ever using it. The word your looking for is Double Standard double standard — n a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another Double standards go hand in hand with racism. Racism is the cause, a double standard is the outcome. Perhaps double standard was a more appropriate term, but it still doesn't change the core of my argument/questions.
I have to disagree, why are males pressured by society to hold open doors for ladies, or to pay for movie tickets?
It's not race, it's ANY DEMOGRAPHIC.
EDIT:
I do get your question/arguement though.
Double standards arn't justificaiton- just an explanation to your questions.
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On March 10 2012 18:37 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 18:33 bLoeB wrote:
I dont believe that. Why fire orb, but keep Idra? Dont get me wrong, i think its a good thing orb got fired. When i was younger and playing Wc3 and lost a game, sometimes i would also rage and get angry at my opponent and myself. Everyone knows its hard to deal with losing in RTS games. But i think when you get a little older and represent sth. like EG, a leading thingy in this community that we want to grow, you cant just keep on flaming ppl on the ladder, that has to stop. Period. There is a lot of other casters that want more attention, give it to those ppl who know how to behave in the public.
But to me Alex Garfield delegitimizates the whole cause he is talking about because he keeps Idra.... where is the consintency?? I read his tweet linked in the modedit and it doesnt seem to make any sense whatsoever to me. A guy that keeps on flaming other ppl online and cant control himself? Can you get rid of him too pls? Dont want to see that.
I also dont like your explanation for the whole thing. I think it would be honest to tell the truth and the truth is like that (atleast that what i think and it could be wrong ofc, if it is im sry!)
Sponsor of EG: hey listen EG, we received this huge amout of negative feedback in a short time, get rid of that guy asap.
And now you give us this explanation about the language orb used... I think the only reason idra has never been fired isnt because you are OK with his use of langauge but rather your Sponsors have never received a huge amout of negative feedback in that short time and i think you should be honest about that.
That is ofc just my view of what i believe happened and it could be completely wrong. However im not happy with this situation. Usually i just read the forums and rarely post and i hope i wont regret my post later. EG invested much time, money and work for Idra. No way they would fire him. The only thing they would do is a little punishment. It's better trying to change Idra himself (which EG did). Now if Idra just joined EG 1 week ago and would say these things, that would be a different story
When Idra joined EG, there were many instances of recorded nerd rage present already. In fact he even had a reputation for raging in BW. So 1 week after Idra joined, there was an even worse situation - yet he stayed.
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If you boil down the situation to the mere facts, the whole ridiculousness really comes to shine:
- Orb, while enraged, types "nigger" to a complete random stranger over the internet about a year ago.
- This rage, amongst other things, brings his stream attention and entertains his viewership.
- Almost a year later he proves to be a talented upcoming caster by casting NASL2, and is well liked by the majority.
- Thus EG hires him to become their "inhouse"-caster.
- Then some random dudes, who probably are not even black(!), find his old rage games and discover this bad bad word.
- These random dudes then suddenly act so incredibly offended that they write emails to sponsors and managers, while probably they are just some normal white dudes who are doing it "for teh lulz"
- A massive company like EG not only bows down to these people, but jumps on their bandwagon.
=> They fire that guy, because random (probably white) guys are offended because a white dude insults a random (probably also white) dude over the internet about a year ago.
So the lesson we all should learn from this: Don't ever fuck with reddit!!! Those guys are serious business.
Edit: I would really really love to know the number of black / afro-american guys who are actually legitimately offended by this whole thing. It strongly seems to me that there are not many and they are not really a big part of this all ..... or you could say they are the minority? ... what an irony.
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On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice.
Black Studies? Don't you mean Criminology?
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
