EPTOrb Dismissed from Evil Geniuses Broadcasts - Page 159
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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038 Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST | ||
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luckyschmuck38
2 Posts
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Tarotis
Germany1931 Posts
On March 10 2012 23:59 luckyschmuck38 wrote: I agree with Alex that such language and racial insensitivity should be dealt with in a very harsh manner WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. This happened long before they hired him. I'm sure you could go digging and find InControl saying the n word, Idra, Machine, at some point in there lives, lots of people have used this word not because they are racist or bad people, but it has become (unfortunately) a part of our vocabulary. If he was flaming and saying racial slurs on air while under contract please fire him and make an example out of him. However, firing him on the basis of something he said maybe a year earlier is outrageous. And depending on the contract possibly not even legal. I have no problem with Alex's reasoning just the end result was mishandled. Not the "racism" was the problem in my opinion. Most of the people complaining don't think his apologies were right. He failed to admit what he did and even tried to say that somebody else played on his account! | ||
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Puph
Canada635 Posts
 People getting banned left and right, casters getting shunned. Seems like a chore to be around these days. As if we went from praising sponsors to get shit done -- to complaining to them. Oh well, my best regards go with Orb despite his slip-up. This will obviously make him bite his tongue next time, which shouldn't be a bad thing.At first I was outraged with EG and Otterman, but I suppose I understand. Lynchings happen because they had do. That I will agree with... Society wouldn't go on with widespread displeasure. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
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Leafren
Belgium66 Posts
On March 10 2012 23:42 Iloja wrote: Now, when it comes to how this specific case (how to handle Orb, not how to generally express yourself in public especially regarding racist slurs) is handled: Yeah, you are right, there could have been a lot of different approaches how EG could have handled the whole affair. But then again: I could imagine Orb made a concious decision when he choose to act like the "though angry doesn't give a shit nerd", it is his role he wanted to display to the public to garner an audience. And, as we can see, it worked. On the other hand it makes it much more difficult to keep such a caster with that attitude, or should i say: Image, when things go south fast. Maybe it is a bit like Wrestling, you (or your management) choose if you are one of the good guys or one of the bad guys. But if you choose, for whatever reasons, to be a "bad guy" (even tough it is just an act) you better make sure that there is nothing people can use against you. If this would have happended to one of the "good guys" the outcry would have had been even worse I think, but in the end the consequences wouldn't have been so drastic (as in your example: donate part of your income or some other gesture of good will and remorse) and people would have forgiven him much faster. Because, yes, people do screw it up once in a while big time. Just don't expect much sympathy if you choose to be the bad guy. If Orb did make a decision to act the bad guy (which, I believe, is a valid business-decision in the entertainment-business as long as you are aware you are making a PR-decision, that you choose an image) he should have been more concious about things in the past that could come back to bite him. He didn't: Bad business-decision-making-skills on his side. If he didn't choose this, and I believe that a lot of people feel this way, and he is just an inmature, angry guy that can't control himself in the slightest, then I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have friends that give him a hint once in a while and he shouldn't cast high-profile-events like the EGMC. All this should be read with the following in mind: As soon as you choose to put your stream on TeamLiquid it is not private anymore, it is part of the "business". You don't add your stream on TL because you don't care, you add it because you want to increase your viewers to gain something (be it fame, money or whatever). You don't agree to cast a tourney that garners a lot of attention (it is EG after all, they are a heavy slugger in the industry!) because you don't care, you do it because it is a good business-opportunity for you. If Orb is able to make these business-decisions one can expect him to clean up his act before stepping into the ring acting the professional no-nonsense caster. He didn't, and by this he left EG with no other option but to fire him. If offending the majority/beeing an "asshat" is part of your image don't expect the mainstream to go easy on you, everybody loves a bad boy, especially if they can make him go down in flames. It's just common business-sense and -darwinism, no? You make valid points but I was under the impression that this happened before Orb was contracted by EG. In addition, if Orb built his reputation on acting like an ass, surely EG knew that? Why did they hire him in the first place? To be clear, I do think Orb's behaviour was terrible. I just don't agree with how EG/Alex handled it at all. In fact, I'd expect financial interests to move to the background when something as serious as racism is claimed. Especially when someone who has some knowledge about this problem makes a post. Instead, Alex told us a nice story but saved to moral for the last paragraph: please contact our sponsors. I find that extremely cynical. And again, if racism in nerdrage is a dealbreaker for EG (I don't agree with this but it is an understandable and valid position), why isn't homophobia? Exactly, because the financial scale tips the other way when it comes to firing IdrA for saying faggot in a broadcasted game. Shameful. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:39 Stratos_speAr wrote: I think some people are failing to realize that the problem that many have with this isn't just the language - it's Orb's lack of immaturity and refusal to take responsibility for his words until he was repeatedly called out on it. You mean lack of maturity. But, how can you say that he "refused to take responsibility" if the incident happened over a year ago. Did he refuse to change what he said in the past or something? | ||
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UrielSC
Canada143 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:44 Djzapz wrote: You mean lack of maturity. But, how can you say that he "refused to take responsibility" if the incident happened over a year ago. Did he refuse to change what he said in the past or something? He might not have access to a Time Machine? In that case I Shall volunteer mine  | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
On March 10 2012 23:58 aristarchus wrote: You're right, "faggot" probably wouldn't get the same response as "nigger", and that's because the sad state of the world is that prejudice against gays is still more socially acceptable than prejudice against blacks. You're right that it's inconsistent. You're not right about which one of the two reactions is wrong. Obviously when he (or anyone else) called someone a nigger online, he didn't mean that that person was actually black. If I called your mom a whore, I wouldn't actually think she was a prostitute. But it's an insult. And it's an insult because being a prostitute is a negative thing. It's seen as stigmatized, immoral, etc. That's what makes it an insult. Calling someone black or gay as an insult implies that that is bad. And it is rightly seen as furthering prejudice. It is unacceptable in the world at large. That language will get you fired from a job, punished in school, etc. It will lose you friends. What I've been saddest about in this controversy isn't Orb's actions. It's the people saying they're not bad. If you think firing was a little too harsh or something, fine. I don't really care about exactly what the punishment is. If you think what he did wasn't bad, that's embarrassing to me as a member of this community. I'm not that far out of the main demographic for esports. I'm a grad student in computer science. That makes me a little older than average here, but if the community is so immature that even I don't feel comfortable joining it, then there's no way it's ever growing to any meaningful size, or be respectable enough to attract real sponsors, etc. The way society fights racism is to make it not acceptable in polite society. It doesn't go away, but it gets forced into small, isolated communities that don't have a lot of social influence. Please, please don't make starcraft 2 one of those communities. What I´m saying is, it´s pretty naive of EG to say "oh he had some BM on his back, how is that possible, we must fire him for having been a kid once and not for-seen that he´d be representing EG at some point". And then they claim they had to fire him because of their strict rules, when they have shown leniency towards their own players, while those players were under the EG flag. The only reason they do that is because nobody complains to sponsors about IdrA or other players, players are loved but Orb isn´t day9 or Tastosis, not everyone like him so he get´s thrown under the bus, and when pressure comes from sponsors, he´s rolled under the bus by the team and the community, and I don´t like Alex´s explanations, he should simply have been honest, said that they can´t give him a chance for his former mistakes, while not under the EG flag. However he chose to make a long post, saying how EG needs to put their weights on the scale and fight this racism, when any thinking person can see it was just a business decision trying to sway the minds of those that complained, so they send an email again saying they are good with EG. Also hypocritical that while 99% of the people here, who are throwing him under the bus, have BM-ed using words that are just as bad, like faggot, fag, fucking retarded noob or something in that direction. Hypocrisy never sits well with me. Also, if Nigger is like Nazi here, then this is blown out of proportion. Only people who are "soar" about "nazi" are germans, and even they are starting to not give a shit when called nazi´s. The only reason "nigger" is such an offensive word, or any bad word for that matter, is because we choose it to be so. We decide that when being called a nigger, that it´s offensive. By doing that, we are actually MAKING the word offensive, letting it have a negative meaning. Why do we insist on letting words like "Faggot" and "nigger" have a bad meaning? If we just start looking at those words as "ok so what? You are just venting anger, it´s cool" we automatically remove the stigma surrounding the words, and then calling someone "nigger"/"faggot" will just be a meaningless silly insult, that nobody gives a shit about, just like "shit" and "fuck", the stigmas have been removed from those words in most places, even though I´ve heard my friends across the Atlantic still maintain some stigma towards "fuck" for some reason. You well mannered friends across the Atlantic, removing the stigma from words is the way to go, but you just seem to be a little behind the rest of the world on that. You maintain racism by insisting on calling someone their skin color (or some word used to describe it) is offensive. The stigma isn´t around "white" and not nearly as much around "yellow", but "nigger/black" has that stigma. I just want to point out, in many spanish societies, "negro/negrito" is a common word associated with no stigma. Remove the stigma from the word instead of maintaining your policy of "this word is supposed to offend me" because by that, you are saying that it´s offensive to be black and/or be associated with being black. Yours truly, Icelandic niggerfag guy. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:49 Jellomomello wrote: He might not have access to a Time Machine? In that case I Shall volunteer mine Those things are in short supply, let's use it for the greater good - not to soothe the conscience of a few mindless drones. Barging into Orb's house to tell him to stop being BM probably wouldn't turn out so good anyway. | ||
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Otak
United Kingdom110 Posts
We know you had to save face in front of your sponsors but don't make out like you actually care THAT much about the words nigger or faggot. And if you do, well.... | ||
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Fusa
Canada148 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:16 Otak wrote: Situation completely blown out of proportion. Why do you think that the word nigger is such a big deal? It's a word and they only have meaning if you let them. We know you had to save face in front of your sponsors but don't make out like you actually care THAT much about the words nigger or faggot. And if you do, well.... if you honestly took the time to read the whole post ( which I am 90% certain you did not ) I think you would understand that (he does care that much) | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:43 Leafren wrote: To be clear, I do think Orb's behaviour was terrible. I just don't agree with how EG/Alex handled it at all. In fact, I'd expect financial interests to move to the background when something as serious as racism is claimed. Especially when someone who has some knowledge about this problem makes a post. Instead, Alex told us a nice story but saved to moral for the last paragraph: please contact our sponsors. I find that extremely cynical. And again, if racism in nerdrage is a dealbreaker for EG (I don't agree with this but it is an understandable and valid position), why isn't homophobia? Exactly, because the financial scale tips the other way when it comes to firing IdrA for saying faggot in a broadcasted game. Shameful. Dont take it personal, but you dont really understand business. At all. Financial interests have to move to the background? In a business? What do you think would have happened (or could have happened) if Alex had reacted differently? You can clearly see that there was pressure from the sponsors (hence the plea to us to write to them). If you lose your sponsors, its lights out. I wont discuss if or if not it was a dickmove to go to the sponsors and point at something that orb said, but i seriously think that Alex could not have done anything different. Then, just try to think further than from the wall to the wallpaper: it could very well be that it was not necessarily a dealbreaker for EG, but for Intel. You know, the real big multi-billion us-company. What then? Do you expect Alex to throw Intel under the bus by saying "yeah i would have kept Orb, but Intel pressured me here and there"? First things have to come first. And that is Team EG for Alex, thats just normal, everything else would be completely idiotic. I certainly would not in the slightest endanger the relationship to my biggest sponsor just over some nerdraging new-recruitment. Completely no way. And again, thats not a dickmove, but just bad luck for Orb. And yeah, thats what it is. Bad luck, he screwed himself (and theres no discussion, he screwed himself). The only "dicks" here are the assholes that went to the sponsors, because im certain that at least 90% were not actually offended, but just wanted to show "power". Edit: Also, if Nigger is like Nazi here, then this is blown out of proportion. Only people who are "soar" about "nazi" are germans, and even they are starting to not give a shit when called nazi´s. Sorry mate. Thats bullshit². And yeah, im german. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:13 n0btozz wrote: Remove the stigma from the word instead of maintaining your policy of "this word is supposed to offend me" because by that, you are saying that it´s offensive to be black and/or be associated with being black. Yours truly, Icelandic niggerfag guy. How does one "remove the stigma" from a word, especially one that carries the weight of centuries of slavery and abuse? | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:21 Fusa wrote: if you honestly took the time to read the whole post ( which I am 90% certain you did not ) I think you would understand that (he does care that much) Whenever a company's CEO says something, you can take their word for it. Right? Orb used a word which can be said to be a racist term, but there was no racist intention whatsoever. This happened over a year ago. He was fired. IdrA is openly racist against French-Canadians and has demonstrated so on his personal stream while he was part of EG. He also uses words like "faggot" and other such insults with relative consistency. He's their star player. Either Alex favors black people and doesn't care about his most visible player's hatred of us filthy French-Canadians, or he doesn't actually give a flying fuck and it's all about money. The second one seems more likely to me. IdrA's BM is accepted because he's a superstar, and he still pulls in a lot of money. Everyone wants their company's name on IdrA's shirt. Orb though, was expendable. It's like with every business. On March 11 2012 01:27 Exley wrote: How does one "remove the stigma" from a word, especially one that carries the weight of centuries of slavery and abuse? His whole point is that it only carries that weight because you make it so. What about the centuries of genocide and maltreatment of the natives? It's not as stigmatized - why the "imbalance" between the required political correctness regarding those two? The word itself isn't a big deal. At all. | ||
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Grokken
Sweden245 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:27 Exley wrote: How does one "remove the stigma" from a word, especially one that carries the weight of centuries of slavery and abuse? By not making a huge fuss every time someone says it. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Good Luck to Orb, you're a good caster. | ||
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shuurai
75 Posts
--Eleanor Roosevelt Ignoring the economical aspect, it's the ultimate result of "political correctness" that should bother all of us. Once language is being sanitized of all vocabulary deemed offensive by any one group, the canon of PC eventually extends beyond personal discrimination into the realm of political interests. A prime example being criticism of a highly belligerent state being painted as some kind of unruly discrimination. Political correctness, instead of defending the individual from being discriminated against, then enables discrimination of one political entity against another -- depending on who sets the boundaries of the canonical PC. Thus, PC is a slippery slope, and should be regarded very critically -- if not abandoned altogether -- as the individual is already well equipped to deflect discriminatory language, as per the quote above. This goes double for online game chat. | ||
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UrielSC
Canada143 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:16 Djzapz wrote: Those things are in short supply, let's use it for the greater good - not to soothe the conscience of a few mindless drones. Barging into Orb's house to tell him to stop being BM probably wouldn't turn out so good anyway. Oh I wouldn't use it to go to Orb's house. I would use it to go the HaterKids house who posted the screenshots as a joke because he was hating on orbs popularity Teach him that just because he can't be famous doesn't mean he needs to hate on those who do. | ||
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verklighet
United States16 Posts
I'll never take this guy seriously until he lives up to his expectations. He's a businessman and a fraud. | ||
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Leafren
Belgium66 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:26 m4inbrain wrote: Dont take it personal, but you dont really understand business. At all. Financial interests have to move to the background? In a business? What do you think would have happened (or could have happened) if Alex had reacted differently? You can clearly see that there was pressure from the sponsors (hence the plea to us to write to them). If you lose your sponsors, its lights out. I wont discuss if or if not it was a dickmove to go to the sponsors and point at something that orb said, but i seriously think that Alex could not have done anything different. Then, just try to think further than from the wall to the wallpaper: it could very well be that it was not necessarily a dealbreaker for EG, but for Intel. You know, the real big multi-billion us-company. What then? Do you expect Alex to throw Intel under the bus by saying "yeah i would have kept Orb, but Intel pressured me here and there"? First things have to come first. And that is Team EG for Alex, thats just normal, everything else would be completely idiotic. I certainly would not in the slightest endanger the relationship to my biggest sponsor just over some nerdraging new-recruitment. Completely no way. And again, thats not a dickmove, but just bad luck for Orb. And yeah, thats what it is. Bad luck, he screwed himself (and theres no discussion, he screwed himself). The only "dicks" here are the assholes that went to the sponsors, because im certain that at least 90% were not actually offended, but just wanted to show "power". Edit: Sorry mate. Thats bullshit². And yeah, im german. I understand, but the problem I have with Alex' way of handling things is how he wrote down a wall of text of racism and his credentials on the subject, while in fact it was just a business PR post. I am a laymen and very likely naive when it comes to business, but I still find his approach shameful. If Alex was really that concerned with discrimination based on human traits, he should have fired IdrA as well. Since he didn't, he's a big hypocite in my opinion. If somehow the criteria is how many assholes complain to the sponsors, that would make it even more cynical in my opinion. | ||
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