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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 18:06 LMPeaches wrote:
Alex, if you find the word n----r as repulsive as you described, how do you feel about The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn being taught in US schools?
Do you know when that book was written? I know when I read it in school they didnt read it and say now this is an ok term to use these days.
Common I cant believe you think is the same thing that he is refering to.
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Get fired from your job playing and talking about video games because you were being immature.
1st world problem.
orb is an adult and he should act like one, because people are going to treat him as one. Hopefully. Alexander Garfield not only did the right thing for EG, but for the StarCraft 2 scene as well.
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I don't see what is so hard for some people to understand that making a fool of your company has its implications. Good luck to both sides in the future.
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In my opinion, this sets a bad precedent about firing someone after hiring in the first place, based on personal information and behaviour that happened before the hiring took place. Given the severity of the comments i guess i can understand it though, even if i strongly disagree with their course of action. Too bad for Orb.
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On March 10 2012 20:11 prplhz wrote:
Get fired from your job playing and talking about video games because you were being immature.
1st world problem.
orb is an adult and he should act like one, because people are going to treat him as one. Hopefully. Alexander Garfield not only did the right thing for EG, but for the StarCraft 2 scene as well.
He did a good job. Incontrol and Demuslim cast is way better then what it was with orb. Inmuslim made me enjoy the games more then before with orb (didn't bring me in and this is before incident).
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For all those feeling sorry for Orb, don't. The guy used some pretty terrible language in a public medium. Many of you don't understand because you are still young and don't have jobs yet, but when you work for a company you are the face of that company in any client-facing or public forums. Anything you do to bring shame upon yourself also shames your company.
I had buddies who got fired for what they were typing in their personal work chat through Microsoft Lync. Facebook, IM, Linkedin, and any other public domains are fair game for employers.
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On March 10 2012 21:39 tskarzyn wrote:
For all those feeling sorry for Orb, don't. The guy used some pretty terrible language in a public medium. Many of you don't understand because you are still young and don't have jobs yet, but when you work for a company you are the face of that company in any client-facing or public forums. Anything you do to bring shame upon yourself also shames your company.
I had buddies who got fired for what they were typing in their personal work chat through Microsoft Lync. Facebook, IM, Linkedin, and any other public domains are fair game for employers.
Exactly, my old manager got fired over some stupid comments over Facebook...well a requested resignation.
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Do people really buy that post by Alex? The brave crusader Alex against racism, conveniently all his efforts simultaneously are aimed at securing his financial interests. Or is homophobia just not as big of an issue for EG? Faggot or nigger, equally offending.
Was Orb wrong? Definately, he acted like an angry idiot. Should he have been hunted down and left to hang like EG did? Hell no. EG knew his history I assume? Or do they just hire people willy-nilly? There is that middle ground, like others suggested: make him donate a months payment to a charity or something. I don't like people who think in extremes. I also don't like people who are that easily pushed around by some internet warriors.
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On March 10 2012 21:39 tskarzyn wrote:
For all those feeling sorry for Orb, don't. The guy used some pretty terrible language in a public medium. Many of you don't understand because you are still young and don't have jobs yet, but when you work for a company you are the face of that company in any client-facing or public forums. Anything you do to bring shame upon yourself also shames your company.
I had buddies who got fired for what they were typing in their personal work chat through Microsoft Lync. Facebook, IM, Linkedin, and any other public domains are fair game for employers.
DID NOT WORK FOR EG
WHEN COMMENTS were made
It was all prior- almost a year before I believe.
way to ruin someone dream over 2 words.
hope karma gets you
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On March 10 2012 22:08 Leafren wrote:
Do people really buy that post by Alex? The brave crusader Alex against racism, conveniently all his efforts simultaneously are aimed at securing his financial interests. Or is homophobia just not as big of an issue for EG? Faggot or nigger, equally offending.
Was Orb wrong? Definately, he acted like an angry idiot. Should he have been hunted down and left to hang like EG did? Hell no. EG knew his history I assume? Or do they just hire people willy-nilly? There is that middle ground, like others suggested: make him donate a months payment to a charity or something. I don't like people who think in extremes. I also don't like people who are that easily pushed around by some internet warriors.
This^^
I think I will be writing to their sponsors like he asked and telling them how appalled at the double standard here and the over reaction of their CEO to an incident that didnt even happen while orb was employed by EG.
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I wish people would stop being offended by words themselves without looking at the context in which the words are uttered.
Bitch can be both a positive or negative thing to say.
In the case of Orb it was negative and I agree, but I hope this doesn't help further the cause of people who'd like supposed faul language banned from streams forever.
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On March 10 2012 22:21 Valashu wrote:
I wish people would stop being offended by words themselves without looking at the context in which the words are uttered.
Bitch can be both a positive or negative thing to say.
In the case of Orb it was negative and I agree, but I hope this doesn't help further the cause of people who'd like supposed faul language banned from streams forever.
Hahahaha, how can "bitch" be a positive word ever, please do tell. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MuEls.gif)
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There's really two kinds of bullshitters; there's the bullshitters that genuinely believe whatever they say. Then there's the bullshitters that don't really believe that what they say is true or correct or an opinion they necessarily support, but nevertheless finds ways to justify because they just can't handle admitting fault, even to themselves. The second kind of bullshitter is the dangerous one, and this thread is full of them.
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jesus christ, really? Overreaction to the extreme, was gonna type an example that fits but kibeth wrote one that I really liked so I will just use that. "It's kind of like if I stole a toy from a grocery store when I was 8. Later in life I work there, and somehow someone finds out that a decade ago I stole a 99cent toy, and I was fired. Sounds ridiculous right?" - kibeth
I would also like to note that I don't really see what was so bad about what those Counter-Strike players did. I feel that there are a lot of people that are so fixated on not being racist that they actually are racist themselves. I was gonna type a long rant but I can't really be bothered with pompuos self-righteous people..
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On March 10 2012 22:35 Bocom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:21 Valashu wrote:
I wish people would stop being offended by words themselves without looking at the context in which the words are uttered.
Bitch can be both a positive or negative thing to say.
In the case of Orb it was negative and I agree, but I hope this doesn't help further the cause of people who'd like supposed faul language banned from streams forever. Hahahaha, how can "bitch" be a positive word ever, please do tell.
In describing a female dog, who has positive traits for breeding.
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Why are people assuming most black people get offended by nigger? Dats racist to assume that all black people are sensitive little flowers that need to be protected from a guy on the internet not talking to them.
Every black person I know would't get offended by it... Well, maybe their grand parents would, but they're old. Old people get offended about McDonalds putting too much coffee in their cup.
We're in the process of the language changing here... The younger generation has changed the meanings of words to not be the most 100% offensive things in the world. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
On March 10 2012 22:35 Bocom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:21 Valashu wrote:
I wish people would stop being offended by words themselves without looking at the context in which the words are uttered.
Bitch can be both a positive or negative thing to say.
In the case of Orb it was negative and I agree, but I hope this doesn't help further the cause of people who'd like supposed faul language banned from streams forever. Hahahaha, how can "bitch" be a positive word ever, please do tell.
"sup bitches?!"
What's wrong with that?
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I pity Orb, I have no clue why the community is throwing him under the bus marking him as a racist. I guess saying "nigger" to someone on ladder is a terrible thing in American culture, I don´t know, I´m not from the US. But getting cannon-rushed by Gaulzi can make you understandably mad and calling someone a "nigger faggot" is something I don´t personally have a problem with. "Nigger tactics" or whatever else, saying it in some rage on ladder isn´t the worst thing in the world, who cares? Would this shit storm be so big if you said "faggot tactics"? I don´t think so, for some reason using the word "faggot" seems to be ok, but nigger isn´t. As I said, i´m not from the US, I don´t know your culture that well but offensive words seem to be looked worse upon there then here in the EU. Who hasn´t raged on ladder and called someone a faggot? I´ve called countless people "stupid fucking faggots", never used the word nigger since it´s just no in my "normal" curse-word vocabulary.
90%+ of the people here have raged on ladder and called out some curse words to the opponent, but what do they really mean? 99% of the time that you are frustrated with losing to an opponent you feel was playing shit, hence you were playing even worse since you lost to that guy and you are venting your frustration at that. You are not actually saying someone is an african american homo sexual with downs syndrome, just that you are frustrated at losing to someone who played silly.
Now, going up to a black person and saying "You are a fucking nigger" is racist. Going up to a gay person and saying "you are a fucking faggot" is...wrong (dno what word to use, same as racist, just not attacking his race but his sexuality). Those are abusive words used to describe their skin color/sexuality in a way that is supposed to be demeaning to them, using their actual sexuality/skin color to do so. However, calling some random dude/chick over the internet a fucking nigger faggot, is not something that makes you racist, nor does it say you hate gay people. I have nothing against gay people and get along with them just fine, still I use the word "faggot" on the internet like there is no tomorrow, it doesn´t make me treat homosexuals any worse.
People need to calm down, EG reacted to the heavy fire they were under when it became financial, they are on their knees asking people to go to the sponsors and say good things about them. Fire-ing orb is just their way to try to react to the situation, doing the financially right thing. If you are a masters player, you´d have to be Sheth or WhiteRa not to have BM-ed a shitload of times on the ladder, EG knows people have BM-ed, their own players have done so (IdrA amongst others), but now when it´s financial, they go all "omg how terrible finding this out, here we have 3 cases of a player who was not contracted and was just playing for fun RAGING on the ladder and saying "nigger" and "faggot"...how terrible and how surprising". HOW is it surprising to EG that everyone has something like this on their back? I just don´t get it...But money is money, and since I´m not from the US and don´t get the big fuss, I´m just going to say I don´t get this shit and hope this Orb guy just continues to cast and have fun with it, people that like him can watch him, and countless people seem to be ok with some abuse on streams, or Destiny wouldn´t be making money at all. Btw, Destiny used to be more vulgar/abusive...Destiny also used to have more people on his stream...weird how that works...
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On March 10 2012 22:08 Leafren wrote:
Was Orb wrong? Definately, he acted like an angry idiot. Should he have been hunted down and left to hang like EG did? Hell no. EG knew his history I assume? Or do they just hire people willy-nilly? There is that middle ground, like others suggested: make him donate a months payment to a charity or something. I don't like people who think in extremes.
Now, when it comes to how this specific case (how to handle Orb, not how to generally express yourself in public especially regarding racist slurs) is handled: Yeah, you are right, there could have been a lot of different approaches how EG could have handled the whole affair.
But then again: I could imagine Orb made a concious decision when he choose to act like the "though angry doesn't give a shit nerd", it is his role he wanted to display to the public to garner an audience. And, as we can see, it worked. On the other hand it makes it much more difficult to keep such a caster with that attitude, or should i say: Image, when things go south fast.
Maybe it is a bit like Wrestling, you (or your management) choose if you are one of the good guys or one of the bad guys. But if you choose, for whatever reasons, to be a "bad guy" (even tough it is just an act) you better make sure that there is nothing people can use against you. If this would have happended to one of the "good guys" the outcry would have had been even worse I think, but in the end the consequences wouldn't have been so drastic (as in your example: donate part of your income or some other gesture of good will and remorse) and people would have forgiven him much faster. Because, yes, people do screw it up once in a while big time. Just don't expect much sympathy if you choose to be the bad guy.
If Orb did make a decision to act the bad guy (which, I believe, is a valid business-decision in the entertainment-business as long as you are aware you are making a PR-decision, that you choose an image) he should have been more concious about things in the past that could come back to bite him. He didn't: Bad business-decision-making-skills on his side.
If he didn't choose this, and I believe that a lot of people feel this way, and he is just an inmature, angry guy that can't control himself in the slightest, then I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have friends that give him a hint once in a while and he shouldn't cast high-profile-events like the EGMC.
All this should be read with the following in mind: As soon as you choose to put your stream on TeamLiquid it is not private anymore, it is part of the "business". You don't add your stream on TL because you don't care, you add it because you want to increase your viewers to gain something (be it fame, money or whatever). You don't agree to cast a tourney that garners a lot of attention (it is EG after all, they are a heavy slugger in the industry!) because you don't care, you do it because it is a good business-opportunity for you.
If Orb is able to make these business-decisions one can expect him to clean up his act before stepping into the ring acting the professional no-nonsense caster. He didn't, and by this he left EG with no other option but to fire him.
If offending the majority/beeing an "asshat" is part of your image don't expect the mainstream to go easy on you, everybody loves a bad boy, especially if they can make him go down in flames.
It's just common business-sense and -darwinism, no?
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On March 10 2012 21:37 Rebel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 20:11 prplhz wrote:
Get fired from your job playing and talking about video games because you were being immature.
1st world problem.
orb is an adult and he should act like one, because people are going to treat him as one. Hopefully. Alexander Garfield not only did the right thing for EG, but for the StarCraft 2 scene as well. He did a good job. Incontrol and Demuslim cast is way better then what it was with orb. Inmuslim made me enjoy the games more then before with orb (didn't bring me in and this is before incident).
Everyone on EG who has had to cast something before did a better job than Orb. I'm actually glad he got fired both because of how immature he is as well as how bad he was at his job.
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On March 10 2012 23:11 n0btozz wrote:
I pity Orb, I have no clue why the community is throwing him under the bus marking him as a racist. I guess saying "nigger" to someone on ladder is a terrible thing in American culture, I don´t know, I´m not from the US. But getting cannon-rushed by Gaulzi can make you understandably mad and calling someone a "nigger faggot" is something I don´t personally have a problem with. "Nigger tactics" or whatever else, saying it in some rage on ladder isn´t the worst thing in the world, who cares? Would this shit storm be so big if you said "faggot tactics"? I don´t think so, for some reason using the word "faggot" seems to be ok, but nigger isn´t. As I said, i´m not from the US, I don´t know your culture that well but offensive words seem to be looked worse upon there then here in the EU. Who hasn´t raged on ladder and called someone a faggot? I´ve called countless people "stupid fucking faggots", never used the word nigger since it´s just no in my "normal" curse-word vocabulary.
90%+ of the people here have raged on ladder and called out some curse words to the opponent, but what do they really mean? 99% of the time that you are frustrated with losing to an opponent you feel was playing shit, hence you were playing even worse since you lost to that guy and you are venting your frustration at that. You are not actually saying someone is an african american homo sexual with downs syndrome, just that you are frustrated at losing to someone who played silly.
You're right, "faggot" probably wouldn't get the same response as "nigger", and that's because the sad state of the world is that prejudice against gays is still more socially acceptable than prejudice against blacks. You're right that it's inconsistent. You're not right about which one of the two reactions is wrong.
Obviously when he (or anyone else) called someone a nigger online, he didn't mean that that person was actually black. If I called your mom a whore, I wouldn't actually think she was a prostitute. But it's an insult. And it's an insult because being a prostitute is a negative thing. It's seen as stigmatized, immoral, etc. That's what makes it an insult. Calling someone black or gay as an insult implies that that is bad. And it is rightly seen as furthering prejudice. It is unacceptable in the world at large. That language will get you fired from a job, punished in school, etc. It will lose you friends.
What I've been saddest about in this controversy isn't Orb's actions. It's the people saying they're not bad. If you think firing was a little too harsh or something, fine. I don't really care about exactly what the punishment is. If you think what he did wasn't bad, that's embarrassing to me as a member of this community. I'm not that far out of the main demographic for esports. I'm a grad student in computer science. That makes me a little older than average here, but if the community is so immature that even I don't feel comfortable joining it, then there's no way it's ever growing to any meaningful size, or be respectable enough to attract real sponsors, etc. The way society fights racism is to make it not acceptable in polite society. It doesn't go away, but it gets forced into small, isolated communities that don't have a lot of social influence. Please, please don't make starcraft 2 one of those communities.
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EPT
