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On March 09 2012 04:28 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:16 danielrosca wrote:On March 08 2012 22:55 xxgeffxx wrote:On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote:
So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze? I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted. Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible. Seriously? Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
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On March 08 2012 18:51 GIhi wrote:
I've played Call of Duty at a fairly high level, didn't do bad in arena on WoW either.
SC2 was my first RTS. It took me quite some reading and watching to understand how the game worked, but nonetheless I slowly advanced from bottom bronze to upper bronze and after a month or so I got to silver, next season I got to gold where I am now. I don't play a lot but I think a good mentality is the most important thing while laddering. Also TRY to be fast, TRY to use ur keybinds like a crazy nestea mofo, TRY to scout and react.
If u have been playing for that long u must know a lot of tactics, and u must know how to react to it.
U can get to platinum by 6pooling with shit micro but that's not starcraft is it?
Play like u should, improve like u should, and TRY!
I love how often I read things like this. Always makin me smile. 
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On March 09 2012 04:30 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:28 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:16 danielrosca wrote:On March 08 2012 22:55 xxgeffxx wrote:On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote:
So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze? I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted. Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible. Seriously? Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun. There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
Well, that's not so surprising. Many bronze/silver players are already banking a ton of resources on one base. This problem will only get worse with more bases. They simply get very little benefit from expanding because their production doesn't keep up. Add to that the fact that your natural is always harder to defend than your main and 1-base play becomes very interesting.
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I wonder if other hobbies have these threads.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
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I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder. The same can be said about the whole game. The skill-level in GM has gone up since it came out a year ago. Anyone in Diamond/Masters will beat a Sub-Plat player 9.9/10 times. It isn't because the Diamond/Master players are better at holding off cheese (which they are), but because they have a much better understanding of the game.
From my experience Macro players in Gold/Plat have a really good mid-game, but don't transition well into the late game. They don't understand when to take expos after their 3rd, or how to engage properly.
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I miss bronze league, I think I'm just going to tank until I get back. Forever bronze.
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On March 08 2012 22:36 danielrosca wrote:
While it is true the skill level is higher, it is higher for all distribution, thus irrelevant to you for comparing a present league to other present league. Might come in handy for a morale boost when a friend is mocking you for being in bronze now while he was in silver last year, however getting all technical about it won't make you play better.
I think distinguishing one's quality of play from one's ladder rank can be a positive thing to do, as long as it's not an excuse for complacency. Ladder rank tells you how you compare to the guy next to you, but worrying about how the guy next to you is doing doesn't help you get better.
I know I've gotten better in a lot of ways over the past several months despite a league ranking that's been pretty stagnant. It's obvious from looking at the actual games over time. There are still a lot of things I'm pretty bad at, though, so getting better just means I'm working on different issues.
For myself, I'd rather look at actual metrics that are meaningful in-game (supply vs. game time, win/loss rate in various matchups, etc) to measure my progress than a league ranking. The league ranking is mostly interesting for seeing where the population as a whole is.
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probes & pylons + spending all your money + overall idea of what you want to do = low diamond
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On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote:
I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder. The same can be said about the whole game. The skill-level in GM has gone up since it came out a year ago. Anyone in Diamond/Masters will beat a Sub-Plat player 9.9/10 times. It isn't because the Diamond/Master players are better at holding off cheese (which they are), but because they have a much better understanding of the game.
That's all very true, but the point of bringing it up is that a stagnant league ranking doesn't mean one is simply not getting better at actually playing the game, which is something a lot of players who have moved up in the ranks more quickly seem to assume. It just means that they're not progressing faster than the population on average (and probably aren't getting better very fast.)
From my experience Macro players in Gold/Plat have a really good mid-game, but don't transition well into the late game. They don't understand when to take expos after their 3rd, or how to engage properly.
Maybe, but many people in that range (including me) can have pretty spectacular mid-game failures as well.
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I started playing in August and placed directly into bronze with no prior RTS experience of any kind. It took me about a month to get out of bronze and then two to get into gold which is where I've been for seasons 5/6 and I can say that without a doubt when I was in bronze I had basically 0 idea what I was doing and was just unbelievably bad. I would stay on 3 rax for like the whole game and take my natural at like 15 minutes. I mean just the most ridiculous stuff.
The thing that really opened my eyes about the game was this video I saw about expanding every six minutes while making non-stop workers/depots/marines/rax and just focusing on that...nothing else. It took a little while to get right but I tried that until I could do it pretty well and the bottom line is, if you're maxxed out at 14 minutes in bronze, you are going to win every game.
I stuck with that in silver for a bit but the strategy would fall apart at times against splash damage and I actually had to start learning builds at that point. In gold league, it's pretty much the same basic macro shit that's holding me back. I still get supply blocked, miss SVCs, don't spend money and it costs me the game. Sure, sometimes I have a huge lead and lose an engagement really bad which costs me the game, but most of the time it's like "Well, you had 27 workers at 10 minutes. What did you expect, retard?" I'd say more than anything else the biggest problem with my play is keeping up my macro while under pressure and unfortunately despite a lot of practice this isn't something that I've really gotten much better at.
Even though SC2 can be pretty frustrating it's still an amazing game.
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On March 09 2012 03:38 K3Nyy wrote:
Also your example of trying a warp prism build when they're 6pooling is why lower league players don't promote. They don't scout or react to what they see, so they die to the same shit over and over and then blame cheesers when it's their own fault.
I think the importance of scouting and reacting properly is often underemphasized. It's easy to tell a low-level player they should macro better but knowing how to play to survive doing so is 90% of the challenge. This is why Destiny's "I can just make queens and have good mechanics" misses the point that he has not only good mechanics but good positioning, good strategic thought, knowledge of what timings are likely to be coming up, etc., and no matter what he does he won't be able to just turn that knowledge off.
As for the OP, I honestly don't see how it is possible for someone to devote so much time to the game and still be at that level. Sounds to me you're doing more work than me or most of the people I know. But honestly if you don't mind and just want to have fun and enjoy your games like you said, then by all means accept where you're at.
It's been said before, but I think a lot of people in the OP's position are putting in all that work learning things that don't pay off as much as they could. I mean, it may be fun to work on, say, doing lots of drops, but that doesn't necessarily serve the goal of learning to survive playing a macro game.
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On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote:
I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder.
Probably because people keep bringing up one year old+ stuff like the mass stalker to diamond and mass queen to platinum thing, and I'm usually left thinking "god, those opponents they met were way worse than the ones I see".
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On March 09 2012 05:33 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote:
I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder. Probably because people keep bringing up one year old+ stuff like the mass stalker to diamond and mass queen to platinum thing, and I'm usually left thinking "god, those opponents they met were way worse than the ones I see".
Mass stalker is definitely possible, at least to gold/plat
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On March 08 2012 23:39 papaz wrote:
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today.
Destiny did that almost a year into the game's release. I think people don't realize how good queens can be, IF you have excellent creep spread and good transfuse micro. They have a lot of health, decent damage, and the ability to heal each other pretty much constantly.
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On March 09 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
I wonder if other hobbies have these threads.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
LOL!
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On March 09 2012 05:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:39 papaz wrote:
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today. Destiny did that almost a year into the game's release. I think people don't realize how good queens can be, IF you have excellent creep spread and good transfuse micro. They have a lot of health, decent damage, and the ability to heal each other pretty much constantly.
Rofl queens do absolutely no damage queens are very good support units in the early and late game but trash at fighting.
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On March 09 2012 04:14 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote:
I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'. i'm mid/top master and i think the leagues are a pretty good representation of your skill. if there is any misconception at all, it's that the skill gap isnt that big between leagues while in reality it's huge. even between top masters and low masters, there is a noticeable difference. when comparing between leagues, there is even more of a disparity. the skill gap gets even greater above masters as low masters < masters < GM <<< pro-gamers/GM kr < kr pro-gamers < GSL <<<<< DRG i rarely have any trouble with anyone who is "low masters" and playing anyone below diamond is extremely confusing as i cannot read what the player is doing at all. he wont have an expansion well into the late game which causes me to throw up defenses in preparation for an all-in. but after i throw up my spines, no attack comes and he just sits in his base throwing up an expansion 10 minutes later. if you're below diamond, u have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game and/or have horrible mechanics. i have never lost to anyone below masters but i admit i have lost 1-2 games against platinum protosses who just a-move deathball me.
You see, my theory is the skill gap between the higher leagues is getting increasingly huge, like you're saying, but the lower leagues (platinum and below) is really just a mish-mash of people cheese, poor execution or not knowing what they're doing. I sure there are platinum players that are worse then me, but I'm sure there is a silver player that doesn't play that often but could eat my lunch.
I guess all I'm saying is that Platinum and Below = bad, but Platinum does not automatically mean better than Gold or even Silver.
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Silver player with low gold MMR here, I don't care really that I suck and I know I do. I play for 3+ hours a day on weekends and do some casual games in the weekdays and I do Playhem/Z33K but I still suck. Whatever.
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On March 09 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
I wonder if other hobbies have these threads.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
Lol, you just summed up the whole post. Awesome!
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if you're not zerg, do you build workers non stop?
this is a fundamental problem for a lot of players. screw build orders, dont stop making workers, work your builds around the money you have while able to constantly make workers while not queuing more than 1, 2.
once you're able to do this, move on to learning builds, analyze replays, whatever.
i do wonder about the difference between those who play 3 hours a day and is in silver and those who player 3 hours a week and in master. excluding past rts experience.
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EPT
