On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
Seriously?
Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
This isn't true at all. In most of my games I get to 3 base (as protoss).
Edit: I just responded to a lot of people in separate replies, there doesn't seem to be a multiquote button? Sorry!
To the guy who recommended the bronze channel, thanks! that's exactly what I was looking for.
On March 09 2012 13:15 phiinix wrote: Bronze players shouldn't even be on tl or reading forums or watching day[9] or anything. Just playing single player, playing against easy-medium ai is imo good enough for silver. There should be less focus on the whole macro micro stuff, and just look at the game. I honestly (never tried it) but just want my friends to play while i watch and see how they do. I'm quite sure they'd be top bronze, needing to know 0 information about the game except which buttons do what
So very, very not true. My past replies will deal with this...
There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
On March 11 2012 15:25 Dental Floss wrote: There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
I use a lot of the same hotkeys that I used in BW, for example, my Nexus is on 4 again as protoss; the 4-E for a probe is nice for my finger. What is included in "executive function"? The hotkeys I'm pretty good with.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I'm currently diamond and when I've off-raced with some of the most appalling mechanics you've ever seen (floating 1k at 4 mins whats up) I've beaten high gold and some plat players, mostly because their decision making is bad. Be careful about putting yourself on a pedestal because you'll have difficulty seeing just how badly you play, even I myself sometimes think I play reasonably well and then I watch the replay sometime later and cringe at how oblivious, inefficient and sloppy my play is.
it is really hard for me to believe that there are players that play a lot and still remain in bronze. If you play 1h a day for a month your mechanical skill should increases enough to outmacro other bronze players.
Another reason why i can't believe that there aren't just like 8-14 year old kids in bronze or people that never play video games at all and make like 1 game each month is this guy he is Quadriplegic as you can see in the video and was able to get to diamond.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
There is a peak in mechanics, but studies have shown that it is only reached after 10 YEARS of dedicated study and practice. This applies to highly technical and mechanical things like professional sports and music. Nobody has hit a mechanical ceiling in SC2.
On March 11 2012 15:25 Dental Floss wrote: There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
I use a lot of the same hotkeys that I used in BW, for example, my Nexus is on 4 again as protoss; the 4-E for a probe is nice for my finger. What is included in "executive function"? The hotkeys I'm pretty good with.
It is the ability to create goals, and make plans to meet those goals. It is managing details, understanding problems, and controlling your own actions.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
I've played bronze league games on my friends account while teaching him to play and I promise you that all of this is in your head. If you macro smoothly you'll literally have twice as many units as someone at the 10 minute mark. As a Zerg I'm often maxed at 13 minutes. Check your replays and see what your food is at the 13 minute mark and then report back. I'll bet its less than 120.
I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but my real "skill revolution" was purely a macro thing. Never before or after this did I have such a jump in skill.
I had been playing bw and following the scene for years. I was a pretty bad player, a D or D- protoss. One day I decided I would focus solely on my macro. I would make sure I was making probes and units constantly, making enough pylons and gateways, and NEVER letting my money get too high. After a couple days of this, I would almost feel physically ill if I looked up and saw that I had banked 1500 minerals. I trained myself to hate it. Now, before my macro training, I already knew a fair bit about the game. I was awful, but I knew a lot of builds, a lot of counters, had watched the pro scene for years, etc. After I got my macro up to snuff, I went from a D- to a C- player in under a month. For those that don't know iccup, this would probably be equivalent of a long-time Silver player getting to Diamond or Masters. Once I had that basic mechanical skill and had trained myself into a consistent cycle, the skill stayed with me and carried over into SC2. I could probably go into a new RTS with ZERO knowledge of the game, aside from what building/unit gives me supply and one basic unit that can attack both ground and air and play my very first game at a Gold/Plat equivalent level. I'm not trying to say I'm especially good. I'm trying to say that that disparity between Bronze/Silver/Gold players and the rest is almost universally a macro disparity. You can be a strategic genius in Bronze or a monkey that's been trained to do a repetitive macro cycle in Diamond. If you are someone who has been trapped in Bronze for an extended period of time, I would assume that you are thinking of the game and improvement in the wrong way. Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of proficiency. Until then, it's almost a rhythm game like Guitar Hero or something. Learn patterns you need to execute, and do them over and over until you make few mistakes.
Strategy and unit composition are so overrated in bronze/silver. These are things that matter between people of equivalent macro. If you macro correctly you will have more supply than your opponent by the 10 minute mark and should be maxed with a 50 supply lead not much later than that. They also scout rarely if not at all so you can take hidden expos for days without being denied. While they are busy working on tech and composition trying to get to their strategy of choice that they see in pro games, you just overwhelm them with the unit of your choice.
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
I guess I'm living proof that this isn't true.
Season 2 ended with me being top diamond as terran, which realistically looking back was also my limitation.
Started now as zerg to have some fun, a race i have only played with in starcraft 1 campaign. Very weird mechanics to get accustomed to, but 10 games later i was out of bronze, injecting every 2 minutes, looking of for shortcuts w/ mouse, forgetting to start buildings, no creep, no overlords and all the good stuff. Hitting gold is harder than i expected to be honest, 50 games and i'm still losing to stupid sh-_- that honestly make no sense.
So about the forever bronze thing, you're probably doing something WRONGER than i did, which is pretty hard to beat.
On March 11 2012 16:13 3clipse wrote: Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of proficiency. Until then, it's almost a rhythm game like Guitar Hero or something. Learn patterns you need to execute, and do them over and over until you make few mistakes.
Well tbh I broke my way out of Bronze after my first season there, currently in the heady heights of gold lol, but of course there are loads who will never make it out.
People don't seem to be able to comprehend or accept the fact that there will always be LOADs of people in lower leagues, its the nature of any game/sport. Lets take football (soccer for you Americanos). It is played on many levels and enjoyed at those levels. People play 5 a sides with work/school colleagues just for fun and don't get angry that they are nowhere near being Christiano Ronaldo, its just they enjoy a kick about.
To put it simply, just because it is the lowest league in the game, doesn't mean people should stop playing because they cannot get out of it. Have fun, it's a game!
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
I'm not sure if you can. It's ok if you don't want to give your name away, I have no problem with that.
Any bronze player trying to use a strat from a day9 daily or pro game will be easy to beat, because their mechanics are not good enough to get such a composition in a timely matter. I guarantee it will take any bronze league player twice as long to get the equivalent tech/unit count as a high level player, and even then their execution will be off.
Here's a question, do you generally play passive? As a terran player working on my macro, i generally attack in regular intervals (7 minutes while expo, 11 minutes, 15 minutes, etc) unless an attack goes particularly well (which is often) in which case I just end it. You would be surprised at how effective low supply aggression is. If all you do is build up an army and sit around with it, you will allow them to get their desired unit composition even with horrible macro. You should be expanding/teching behind aggression in low leagues.
People need to just relax when they play.. winning or losing a ladder match means NOTHING and i think ppl get to involved to infested in one game. If you lose you lose.. if you win you win. If your in bronze your in bronze... its not that OH i made gold once so im really gold in bronze.. NO your bronze. ENJOY it till you do get better. Having an RTS background in gaming helps you so so much, if this is your first RTS then you are taking a crash course in learning. Relax play the game and if your in whatever league thats just what you are.. someday you will get better and starting owning more. :D GL HF and I think the "HAVE FUN" part of that is lost in a lot of gamers.
EPT
