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On March 05 2012 15:03 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:59 DanLee wrote:On March 05 2012 14:15 Primadog wrote:On March 05 2012 14:14 juicyjames wrote:On March 05 2012 14:00 1Eris1 wrote:On March 05 2012 13:52 Grampz wrote:On March 05 2012 13:35 1Eris1 wrote:On March 05 2012 13:27 Forikorder wrote:On March 05 2012 13:24 Navillus wrote:On March 05 2012 13:18 Forikorder wrote:
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thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too. lol is F2P which alot of people point at oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?" SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon Um SC2's viewerbase has actually shrunk considerably. And LoL has already started working on several barcrafts http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=12923085Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool. lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about? Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events. The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ECAyc.png) PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall. Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics. I am pretty sure that stats were taken every end of each month. Correct me if I am wrong though
You could be right, I'm not sure either. Doesn't make a difference though because my point is looking at VOD views is an incredibly stupid way to judge viewership. The people who watch live for the most part will not go back and watch the VODs so those counts are missing a considerable chunk of the actual number. It also works the other way because the live viewer count is missing the people who can't watch live and watch the VOD instead. I still maintain live viewer counts are the most useful statistic whether this is good or bad for sc2 I'm just saying VOD counts are not that important. P.S. This sucks, Fruitdealer was a big inspiration for me early on in sc2.
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First YellOw now Fruitdealer, whats with good zergs becoming coaches T.T
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On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
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On March 05 2012 15:06 Yaki wrote:
We all kinda knew it was coming, now it came it's a little bit sad because I think he didn't exploit his sc2 potential at his fullest.
I don't agree with that. Everyone else just got better than him. He just had great timing with beta and season 1 of GSL. I love the guy, but he doesn't have the potential a lot of people seem to think he has.
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On March 05 2012 14:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:18 zEnVy wrote:On March 05 2012 14:12 FiWiFaKi wrote:On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote:
is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling. He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people. But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face. I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy. Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2. Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
There's no "better strategy" in LoL, and it's been out a while. Do you even play the game? LoL's much more about execution than SC2. If you watch any number of pro games, you'll see that it's 95% about team dynamics and 5% about personal skill and APM. TheOddOne couldn't carry himself out of the 1300s (that's like high silver/low gold in SC2) in 30ish games on EU server, yet he's probably the best jungler in LoL. He know what to do when, and works as well as he can even when he gets raged at. You don't see players "dominate the other team" or "pull off sweet manuevers" you see teams make great plays and exploit other team's mistakes. Teams execute, the most "strategy" I've seen in recent days is M5's jungle invading (which could've been prevented, is sometimes seen on team Q, and wasn't anything "brilliant).
More relevantly, I'm glad FD found a way out. He could've easily ended up working odd jobs and dumping his cash on booze. The part time culture in South Korea can be a scary place for a lone drunkard. It's good to see the e-sports scene hooking up one of their own. Of course, not everyone can become a coach after their competitive star fades. It's much better than seeing Koreans that might not even be good at poker gambling their days away after they can't play anymore. Hopefully by the time everyone's watching Starcraft 5 and CoD 523257025 they'll have a nice filter system to help progamers get into a productive profession after retiring.
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Australia528 Posts
Couldn't access the article in the OP but found one on ThisisGame
'Fruitdealer' Kim, Won Ki, now an LoL coach!
Starcraft 2's first ever winner 'Fruitdealer' Kim, Won Ki of Startale is now a coach for League of Legends
The programing team Startale announced on the 5th of March that they are appointing the '2010 Starcraft 2 Open Season 1' champion Kim, Won Ki an LoL coach
The first ever winner of Starcraft 2 League Kim, Won Ki has recently been inactive in the scene to focus his efforts on training the LoL players. Coach Kim, Won Ki has considerable skill so it is expected that he will have no trouble devising strategies and advising his players.
As he takes on his role as an LoL coach, Kim, Won Ki naturally ends his Starcraft 2 career as a player. Startale's head coach Won, Jong Wook says he feels that it's great to have a player like Kim, Won Ki not leave the eSports scene and help the development of his juniors. He says that he feels bad that numerous players have been leaving the eSports scene for various reasons and that Startale will actively try to create a place where many players can continue to be in the scene.
Now, Startale now has Won, Jong Wook as its head coach, Kim, Kwang Bok as the Starcraft 2 coach, and Kim, Won ki as the LoL coach. The friendly competition to come between coaches Kim, Kwang Bok and Kim, Won Ki should prove interesting.
Source: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13438&id=1117133
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Canada11261 Posts
On March 05 2012 14:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:18 zEnVy wrote:On March 05 2012 14:12 FiWiFaKi wrote:On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote:
is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling. He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people. But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face. I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy. Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2. Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
I see what you did there 
But seriously the SC2 elitism vs LoL can stop or we can call in the BW 'elitists' and have a real rumble. This really isn't the thread to hate on another game. It's fun, it's competitive and some BW/SC2 players and casters are moving to it.
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There's no "better strategy" in LoL, and it's been out a while.
YES THERE IS!! The professional scene in League is not what you think. There are so many concepts and styles to explore in a professional setting of league it's ridiculous. DOTA1 used to be the same way and then disciplined and professional (foreign) teams figured the game out and really brought it to another level.
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On March 05 2012 15:17 Gentso wrote:YES THERE IS!! The professional scene in League is not what you think. There are so many concepts and styles to explore in a professional setting of league it's ridiculous. DOTA1 used to be the same way and then disciplined and professional (foreign) teams figured the game out and really brought it to another level.
Dude, get over it. The meta's going to be stale until a champ that has retard-level synergy with a couple others pops out and wrecks it.
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On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
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Also, I might add Startale is not very high up there in the LoL scene. I really can't see this as anything other than "get old drunk FD a job while saving money on a real coach."
I'd understand if he had led a great progamer career, but being a flash in the pan, succumbing to alcoholism after your first tournament win, and generally being a lazy progamer really doesn't look like it'd make a great LoL coach. He squandered his potential in BW/SC2 and what's to say he might not squander his players' potential in LoL?
It's nice that they did hook him up though. I don't even know what I'm really saying. I guess I just didn't like what FD was doing lately. I wish he'd have won something or at least tried before going off to coach.
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On March 05 2012 14:59 DanLee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:15 Primadog wrote:On March 05 2012 14:14 juicyjames wrote:On March 05 2012 14:00 1Eris1 wrote:On March 05 2012 13:52 Grampz wrote:On March 05 2012 13:35 1Eris1 wrote:On March 05 2012 13:27 Forikorder wrote:On March 05 2012 13:24 Navillus wrote:On March 05 2012 13:18 Forikorder wrote:On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote:The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too. lol is F2P which alot of people point at oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?" SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon Um SC2's viewerbase has actually shrunk considerably. And LoL has already started working on several barcrafts http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=12923085Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool. lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about? Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events. The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL. PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall. Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics.
Please don't be disrespectful just because the numbers don't correlate with your POV. Here's the same data set, averaged:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e31ri.png)
There're nothing random about the chart, the dataset https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnPNpyktaAz_dFFnaDZiZ0YwZnhPeVdwR0RqR25Od2c&output=html are pulled directly from here http://www.gomtv.net/league/index.gom
Statistics is a tool to provide common context, so we can avoid the situations when people choose whichever single datapoint that fit their worldview. The "shady" and "lies, damn lies, and statistics" comes only when statistics are interpreted.
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On March 05 2012 15:15 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 14:18 zEnVy wrote:On March 05 2012 14:12 FiWiFaKi wrote:On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote:
is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling. He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people. But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face. I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy. Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2. Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot. I see what you did there But seriously the SC2 elitism vs LoL can stop or we can call in the BW 'elitists' and have a real rumble. This really isn't the thread to hate on another game. It's fun, it's competitive and some BW/SC2 players and casters are moving to it.
I like how you put quotation marks around BW elitists but not for SC2 elitism.
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On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
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On March 05 2012 13:56 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 13:52 Grampz wrote:On March 05 2012 13:35 1Eris1 wrote:On March 05 2012 13:27 Forikorder wrote:On March 05 2012 13:24 Navillus wrote:On March 05 2012 13:18 Forikorder wrote:On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote:The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too. lol is F2P which alot of people point at oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?" SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon Um SC2's viewerbase has actually shrunk considerably. And LoL has already started working on several barcrafts http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=12923085Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool. lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about? I am not sure about MLG but I read somewhere on a article that GSL viewers decreased every year
I find that hard to believe, since they publicly stated that the DRG Genius finals had 3 times the expected viewers watching live, causing the entire site to crash...
Hmm.. perhaps not now that I saw Primadog's post
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Very sad FD use to be my favorite sc2 player and that first gsl was just soo amazing. Such a dam shame : (
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Glad we're getting some old time RTS coaches into the Korean LoL scene =)
I also find this thread extremely hilarious. Complain about BW elitists for a good year then shit on LoL every chance you get? Great job, hypocritical SC2 fan base.
Pro tip, if you don't like the game but never bothered delving into it, stop making baseless, half assed assumptions. It gets really old, really fast when 80% of you don't know what you're saying when bashing LoL.
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Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
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well well well...
sc2 getting a taste of their own medicine.
LoL doing to sc2 what sc2 did to bw. That's funny
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fSefa.jpg)
