I don't know Korean so I'm unable to translate, but judging from the picture, it is Fruitdealer and he seems to now be more involved in LoL then sc2, which could also be a reason for turning down the IEM spot he had.
Yeah. It says that he is now appointed as the head coach for StarTale's LoL team. It also says that he is quite good at it, so he won't have problems due to the lack of game knowledge.
He also has about 2 years left before he HAS to go to the military, so it sounds like he is going to stick with this for a while.
Was just about to make this thread. Very sad to see a former champ retire :[ I was hoping to see one more huge showing since his stellar IEM NY performance
On March 05 2012 13:01 publicenemies wrote: Those who can't play, coach.
Those who can't coach, coach league of legends.
In all seriousness though, Fruitdealer really antiquate enough at coaching? While it's certainly monumental that he was the first GSL champion, I think his inability to adapt and remain a top-tier player speaks some degrees about either his drive, or his ability to react to developments in any game (whether it be SC2 or LoL).
Sad to see him leaving SC2 but I have to say that it doesn't shock me what so ever. He won GSL 1 and...... well he won GSL 1, then got drunk, and that's it. This seems to be a big trend with players, considering YellOw is doing it and I believe another BW pro just became a LoL coach. Good luck to him in his future!
How sad. Fruitdealer once had the SC2 community in the palm of his hands. With his sexy hair and manly voice he could have been as popular as MMA and Nestea combined. Too bad he cared more about snowboarding and getting drunk than practicing.
Oh yeah Yellow is a LoL coach too. Maybe they can do a showmatch one day just for the hell of it.
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
There are those that burn out and have nothing left- the people you can't name off the top of your head. And while Polt is a nice example, he's an exception. There's a reason why you singled him out and only him- there are so few SC players in University that those that are are known for it.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
On March 05 2012 13:08 pt wrote: guess ill be the first to say it. in lol, you control 1 character and you have teammates. coaching would be like playing starcraft ^^
I don't understand people when they say you don't need a coach because it is a "team " sport??
everyone has a coach, professional counter strike teams/ halo teams / hockey teams, and in this context everything still applies to individual sports (swimming / badminton / ping-pong / sc2 )
This is sad, but can you really blame him?? LoL is where the money is at and he is obviously not doing well in sc2 so this is a perfectly wise career decision.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
SC2 isn't very sustainable at the moment, very few tournaments are actually making a lot of money. And LoL has a much much larger fanbase at the moment. At all of the tournaments where it was SC2+LoL+etc, LoL always had 2-4 times as many viewers as SC2
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
People have already mentioned this but nice job picking the best SC player ever and a huge exception to the rule in Polt, the fact is for every Polt there are a dozen B-teamers that we never see who are giving up years of their lives that could go to classes or jobs to play a video game that just by the numbers the majority of them won't be stars in, that's how being a star works. And right now the SCII scene isn't big enough or strong enough to give real prospects to non-stars, hell even some of the most successful players see this, look at Stephano if anyone can make it just on Starcraft he could but he still would rather retire early and start into something else.
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
There are those that burn out and have nothing left- the people you can't name off the top of your head. And while Polt is a nice example, he's an exception. There's a reason why you singled him out and only him- there are so few SC players in University that those that are are known for it.
your acting like SC2 is a dead end profession, it isnt you can win enough money to transition out of it if you really badly want to or you can go into coaching or commentating
the only difference between a SC2 player and any other sport player except Chess i guess is theres less money in the SC2 community for now but with the salaries palyers make from there teams theres nothing stopping them from pursuing tertiary education
People have already mentioned this but nice job picking the best SC player ever and a huge exception to the rule in Polt, the fact is for every Polt there are a dozen B-teamers that we never see who are giving up years of their lives that could go to classes or jobs to play a video game that just by the numbers the majority of them won't be stars in, that's how being a star works. And right now the SCII scene isn't big enough or strong enough to give real prospects to non-stars, hell even some of the most successful players see this, look at Stephano if anyone can make it just on Starcraft he could but he still would rather retire early and start into something else.
i say stephano is talking out of both sides of his mouth with one
hes trying to pretend he doesnt care about starcraft at all and that he only practices a couple hours a day and only cares about the money, then he throws away free money by forfeiting a tournament so he doesnt show bad games, he obviously cares alot more about the game then he lets on no way hell retire early
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
He's talking about the 98%+ who don't make it anywhere. That said, even as a pro, very, very, very few of them actually get to the status of Boxer. On top of that, it only really matters in Korea since pro SC players are akin to professional football (soccer) players there. WhiteRa surely isn't a guy that every Ukrainian person knows and loves and looks up to.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
On March 05 2012 13:03 dongus wrote: I don't understand. What's there to coach in LoL?
It's a team sport? There is coordination? Plays? I know what you're trying to say though lol.
Oh the mods think I'm trolling because its my first post -.-
I was just being curious on what is there to coach at LoL
Because I never get to play MOBAs and don't see any necessary things to coach
if you never played it, how can you judge it? Prejuduice?
hell coach the same way you coach SC2 you point of aprts of a palyers play you think he should improve, maybe a player is too defensive or too offensive maybe he should use a different hero or get a different item build
you set your team up with practice schedules and watch them to make sure they follow through set up drills and practices show them areas they need to improve teach them to handle stress at critical moments show them ways to widen there awareness and make sure there in good physical shape
i thought he was on a sort of a resurgence in SC2... i mean he nearly got 1st over DRG at IEM NY, guess he feels he can make more money in LoL? makes me sad inside =[ and here i was getting ready for rooting for FD at IEM WC
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
There are those that burn out and have nothing left- the people you can't name off the top of your head. And while Polt is a nice example, he's an exception. There's a reason why you singled him out and only him- there are so few SC players in University that those that are are known for it.
your acting like SC2 is a dead end profession, it isnt you can win enough money to transition out of it if you really badly want to or you can go into coaching or commentating
the only difference between a SC2 player and any other sport player except Chess i guess is theres less money in the SC2 community for now but with the salaries palyers make from there teams theres nothing stopping them from pursuing tertiary education
There are some interviews of pro players who say that you need to invest a lot of time and effort in order to keep up with others, and still, it doesn't guarantee you get enough money for living. Polt example is kind miracle, but I think part of it is "luck". Besides, sc2 scene doesn't get many sponsors lately. And viewership is kinda going down compared to other e-sport games. That's why you see PTV tournament. Coaching/commentating might be good, but there are already people doing it. All in all, I don't think there are any incentives to stay in sc2 if you don't have enough time or you're super talented.
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
There are those that burn out and have nothing left- the people you can't name off the top of your head. And while Polt is a nice example, he's an exception. There's a reason why you singled him out and only him- there are so few SC players in University that those that are are known for it.
your acting like SC2 is a dead end profession, it isnt you can win enough money to transition out of it if you really badly want to or you can go into coaching or commentating the only difference between a SC2 player and any other sport player except Chess i guess is theres less money in the SC2 community for now but with the salaries palyers make from there teams theres nothing stopping them from pursuing tertiary education
It's depressing, but what they're saying is the truth. For the larger majority, sc2 is a dead end profession, mainly because there is so little money to be had for those who aren't at the very top. You don't seem to understand that for Korean pro gaming teams, there isn't a salary. They get food, accommodation, and a place to practice. That's it. They don't get money, they don't get education, they don't get anything that will give them any kind of leg up when their starcraft career is over.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
I find LoL a headache and a bore to watch and play, but it does have a bigger playerbase and a bigger viewership base, primarily because the playerbase is so huge. I doubt SC2 will catch up anytime soon. Blizzard had its chance, but they crushed it (esp. in Korea).
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
I find LoL a headache and a bore to watch and play, but it does have a bigger playerbase and a bigger viewership base, primarily because the playerbase is so huge. I doubt SC2 will catch up anytime soon. Blizzard had its chance, but they crushed it (esp. in Korea).
I like watching LoL because it isn't like SC2 where it becomes a 30+ minute farmfest then one big fight GG or a cheese game that takes around 8 minutes. Plus its a team game, whereas SC2 is purely a solo game. Even as a teamleague. Seeing team synergy in LoL is kind of thrilling~
If you haven't noticed LoL is getting EVERY popular in Korea now, OGN is hosting tournaments and hosting them on TV. In PC cafes I believe is it on the top 10 list and SC2 isn't even on there... which is odd
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
On March 05 2012 13:26 eviltomahawk wrote: First YellOw, now FruitDealer?
Makes me sad, but best of wishes to both of them.
Not only that, but Kim Carrier will be casting for LoL. I don't know, it's nice to see them continue on in and as MOBA is such a new esport, some old BW hands will bring some welcome experience.
On March 05 2012 13:08 pt wrote: guess ill be the first to say it. in lol, you control 1 character and you have teammates. coaching would be like playing starcraft ^^
I don't understand people when they say you don't need a coach because it is a "team " sport??
everyone has a coach, professional counter strike teams/ halo teams / hockey teams, and in this context everything still applies to individual sports (swimming / badminton / ping-pong / sc2 )
On March 05 2012 13:08 pt wrote: guess ill be the first to say it. in lol, you control 1 character and you have teammates. coaching would be like playing starcraft ^^
Thats why the team needs a coach. Just read your sentence yourself again. You have "teammates" thats the problem. You are not 1v1, its 5v5. Lets say you are beast-mode, killing people left and right but the other four on your team are doing some stupid shit. You still lose.
Many people on this thread seems to really look down upon LoL. Its not hard to play, I can eat my breakfast, watch some TV while play LoL. But you still needs alot of practice and skill in teamwork and decision making.
What I heard from a Korean friend, LoL is on fire in Korea right now after Riot establish KR server just a few month back. So goodluck to FD!!!
yeh i gota be honest i cant see a LoL coach being needed. the way the game is played everyone knows everything about everything or else you cant be good at that genre of game. its true with wow arena and basically any pvp rpg. its nice to see he found work but eh..
On March 05 2012 13:26 eviltomahawk wrote: First YellOw, now FruitDealer?
Makes me sad, but best of wishes to both of them.
Not only that, but Kim Carrier will be casting for LoL. I don't know, it's nice to see them continue on in and as MOBA is such a new esport, some old BW hands will bring some welcome experience.
MOBAs are new to esports? I'm guessing you haven't heard of DotA then. It has been, and still is, an esport (mainly in China now, but lets be honest now they can pretty much fuel any esport they want with the resources they have).
On March 05 2012 13:26 eviltomahawk wrote: First YellOw, now FruitDealer?
Makes me sad, but best of wishes to both of them.
Not only that, but Kim Carrier will be casting for LoL. I don't know, it's nice to see them continue on in and as MOBA is such a new esport, some old BW hands will bring some welcome experience.
MOBAs are new to esports? I'm guessing you haven't heard of DotA then. It has been, and still is, an esport (mainly in China now, but lets be honest now they can pretty much fuel any esport they want with the resources they have).
Mainstream MOBA popularity and growth is new to E-Sports. To say that DOTA has recieved anywhere near as much exposure as either DOTA2 or LoL is wrong.
It's nice that ESports can actually act as complementary goods. SC2 fans can watch LoL at tournaments, visa vi.
On topic: Grats to FruitDealer! I'll look forward to seeing his team on the pro circuit.
On March 05 2012 13:43 orangesunglasses wrote: yeh i gota be honest i cant see a LoL coach being needed. the way the game is played everyone knows everything about everything or else you cant be good at that genre of game. its true with wow arena and basically any pvp rpg. its nice to see he found work but eh..
I don't think the coaches will focus too much on gameplay and stuff like that. Maybe a bit of strategy planning and scouting, but mainly the logistics behind the team. They have to make sure the players are organized enough to practice (scrims) and get everyone together for the offline tournaments (OGN). They're also there to calm the players down between matches since they have more stage experience (think Tyler/Huk at DH?)
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
I am not sure about MLG but I read somewhere on a article that GSL viewers decreased every year
well, understandable because there are a lot of people, especially with experience from BW, that just can't continue to play SC2 for obvious reasons. Great spectator game though!
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
just ignore these trolls with all the baseless facts. People who like LOL, good for you . People who like starcraft 2, good for us. I prefer sc2 , even though i play both.
@fruitdealer, Well i guess a move like this is only natural. He wasnt going anywhere in sc2, with such poor results its only natural one transfers to an easier game.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
just ignore these trolls with all the baseless facts. People who like LOL, good for you . People who like starcraft 2, good for us. I prefer sc2 , even though i play both.
@fruitdealer, Well i guess a move like this is only natural. He wasnt going anywhere in sc2, with such poor results its only natural one transfers to an easier game.
Please don't call me a troll with baseless facts, http://www.gomtv.net/, it's all right there if you want to comare the VOD numbers for each season.
On March 05 2012 14:04 zEnVy wrote: LoL is such an unbelievably bad game. Incredibly low ceiling cap. I played like 10-15 games and would just rofl stop everybody.
Yeah, right. Just play some more and you will end up in the LoL sub-forum QQ thread soon enough. Trust me! Talking about skill-cap, do you know that Zenio play WoW and raid once a week? People play games for fun and entertainment .
is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
Twitchtv is still SC2 dominant. However, if you look at total concurrent by genre from across streaming platforms (twitch own3d ustream, etc), LoL has exceed SC2 numbers by some time. There're several places that track this, but you can check this by going to teevox.com right now and check their stream count on the top left.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
On March 05 2012 14:04 zEnVy wrote: LoL is such an unbelievably bad game. Incredibly low ceiling cap. I played like 10-15 games and would just rofl stop everybody.
Yeah, right. Just play some more and you will end up in the LoL sub-forum QQ thread soon enough. Trust me! Talking about skill-cap, do you know that Zenio play WoW and raid once a week? People play games for fun and entertainment .
You do realize this thread is about a professional LoL coach right? Coaching a video game team is not "for fun and entertainment".
I shouldn't have said BAD game. It's a relatively casual game with some neat elements. It has no room being a professional e-sport. The only reason it's even starting to become one is because it's free and ridiculously easy to play, so it's got tons of players and thusly lots of potential viewers.
The only real interesting aspect of a pro game would be their strategies, but with only 5 maximum "units" there's only so much variation.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
On March 05 2012 14:04 zEnVy wrote: LoL is such an unbelievably bad game. Incredibly low ceiling cap. I played like 10-15 games and would just rofl stop everybody.
Yeah, right. Just play some more and you will end up in the LoL sub-forum QQ thread soon enough. Trust me! Talking about skill-cap, do you know that Zenio play WoW and raid once a week? People play games for fun and entertainment .
You do realize this thread is about a professional LoL coach right? Coaching a video game team is not "for fun and entertainment".
I shouldn't have said BAD game. It's a relatively casual game with some neat elements. It has no room being a professional e-sport. The only reason it's even starting to become one is because it's free and ridiculously easy to play, so it's got tons of players and thusly lots of potential viewers.
The only real interesting aspect of a pro game would be their strategies, but with only 5 maximum "units" there's only so much variation.
I always love posts like these because the people making them have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
i don't think your method of measurement is very accurate. the group stages of the latest GSL are much longer and i have to break up my viewing in 3 or more sessions resulting in triple the normal view count. the january 2011 GSL i could watch a group stage in a single sitting.
On March 05 2012 14:04 zEnVy wrote: LoL is such an unbelievably bad game. Incredibly low ceiling cap. I played like 10-15 games and would just rofl stop everybody.
Yeah, right. Just play some more and you will end up in the LoL sub-forum QQ thread soon enough. Trust me! Talking about skill-cap, do you know that Zenio play WoW and raid once a week? People play games for fun and entertainment .
You do realize this thread is about a professional LoL coach right? Coaching a video game team is not "for fun and entertainment".
I shouldn't have said BAD game. It's a relatively casual game with some neat elements. It has no room being a professional e-sport. The only reason it's even starting to become one is because it's free and ridiculously easy to play, so it's got tons of players and thusly lots of potential viewers.
The only real interesting aspect of a pro game would be their strategies, but with only 5 maximum "units" there's only so much variation.
Its easy to bash something when you put out zero reasons that support your thesis.
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
It's funny because so many BW players say the same thing about SC2...
Why does this thread have to be about shitting on LoL? Can't we just you know, talk about Fruitdealer?
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
You're looking at very specific events in regards to others. The graph on the previous page illustrates what I'm talking about mostly. There are certainly spikes at times, but all in all it's been steadily going down.
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
There are those that burn out and have nothing left- the people you can't name off the top of your head. And while Polt is a nice example, he's an exception. There's a reason why you singled him out and only him- there are so few SC players in University that those that are are known for it.
your acting like SC2 is a dead end profession, it isnt you can win enough money to transition out of it if you really badly want to or you can go into coaching or commentating
the only difference between a SC2 player and any other sport player except Chess i guess is theres less money in the SC2 community for now but with the salaries palyers make from there teams theres nothing stopping them from pursuing tertiary education
People have already mentioned this but nice job picking the best SC player ever and a huge exception to the rule in Polt, the fact is for every Polt there are a dozen B-teamers that we never see who are giving up years of their lives that could go to classes or jobs to play a video game that just by the numbers the majority of them won't be stars in, that's how being a star works. And right now the SCII scene isn't big enough or strong enough to give real prospects to non-stars, hell even some of the most successful players see this, look at Stephano if anyone can make it just on Starcraft he could but he still would rather retire early and start into something else.
i say stephano is talking out of both sides of his mouth with one
hes trying to pretend he doesnt care about starcraft at all and that he only practices a couple hours a day and only cares about the money, then he throws away free money by forfeiting a tournament so he doesnt show bad games, he obviously cares alot more about the game then he lets on no way hell retire early
Yes those professions exist, but there aren't enough of them to go around for every retired A-teamer, let alone B-teamers and practice partners. If you want to talk about real sports, how many retired professionals can move on and get casting/coaching jobs? Some do, but saying that all do is completely false. Yes you can go to college later but then you're years behind, and by the time you get into the job market you're either competing against people your own age who have the same degrees as well as experience, or younger people who have brighter prospects and longer careers ahead of them.
well this makes him pulling out of IEM make a lot more sense. Good for him extending his career and doing something else in e-sports even after he stopped being a top contender.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2.
Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
damn its a bummer hes gone. I remember hearing stories after he won that he just got content and was being lazy. Its unfortunate cause his GSL run was actually pretty good at one time.
Viewership may have declined since the Open Seasons and early 2011, but it's not just because of waning interest. Many people probably did just move on to other stuff, just as many stopped playing multiplayer, and that's probably the biggest overall reason. Balance and watching terran all the time, or boring deathball vs deathball cold wars has been detrimental as well. There is still hope though.
Blizzard Cup Finals was a pretty big spike in viewership (310k views), and it would probably be even larger if people felt they were buying a longer season--more games for the buck. As the quality of the games improve, people may be drawn back. Leenock vs Jjakji was a smaller spike but the higher viewer count shows that people will tune in for quality games. I don't know why Mvp vs Top has 220k views and Mvp vs MMA has only 140k, other than people being tired of TvT. They were already tired of it in August, or even in the ST, I would have thought. One explanation for October final's low numbers may be Blizzard's higher quality Blizzcon stream, which I believe was available for a couple days afterward.
Other small factors may contribute, such as people simply having more time to view older vods, plus possibly more interest during the winter. Having watched guild stagnation during summer of WoW, I believe there is at least some basis for that. Those don't explain away everything, however. Interest has definitely declined, but I believe when the quality improves, including being rid of Protoss death ball play, some people may come back. Who knows with HotS though.
An additional note: I thought the crowd for DRG vs Genius was the biggest I've seen in Korea SC2 finals (not Blizzcon's crowd). Also noteworthy: it feels that with more tournaments now, viewership may also be spreading out. When people say there is too much stuff to watch it all, they actually mean it.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall.
Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall.
Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics.
I am pretty sure that stats were taken every end of each month. Correct me if I am wrong though
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
On March 05 2012 15:00 Dfgj wrote: FD's a guy that was considered to have good talent but not be a hard worker. I'm not sure I'd want him coaching.
I always just thought his SC2 career declined because everyone else just got better than him. He's like the earlier and more successful version of Jinro. I know that he played SC2 to enjoy it, but I don't think that means he didn't work hard at SC2. Where did you hear that?
On March 05 2012 13:18 Forikorder wrote: [quote] thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall.
Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics.
I am pretty sure that stats were taken every end of each month. Correct me if I am wrong though
You could be right, I'm not sure either. Doesn't make a difference though because my point is looking at VOD views is an incredibly stupid way to judge viewership. The people who watch live for the most part will not go back and watch the VODs so those counts are missing a considerable chunk of the actual number. It also works the other way because the live viewer count is missing the people who can't watch live and watch the VOD instead. I still maintain live viewer counts are the most useful statistic whether this is good or bad for sc2 I'm just saying VOD counts are not that important. P.S. This sucks, Fruitdealer was a big inspiration for me early on in sc2.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
On March 05 2012 15:06 Yaki wrote: We all kinda knew it was coming, now it came it's a little bit sad because I think he didn't exploit his sc2 potential at his fullest.
I don't agree with that. Everyone else just got better than him. He just had great timing with beta and season 1 of GSL. I love the guy, but he doesn't have the potential a lot of people seem to think he has.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2.
Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
There's no "better strategy" in LoL, and it's been out a while. Do you even play the game? LoL's much more about execution than SC2. If you watch any number of pro games, you'll see that it's 95% about team dynamics and 5% about personal skill and APM. TheOddOne couldn't carry himself out of the 1300s (that's like high silver/low gold in SC2) in 30ish games on EU server, yet he's probably the best jungler in LoL. He know what to do when, and works as well as he can even when he gets raged at. You don't see players "dominate the other team" or "pull off sweet manuevers" you see teams make great plays and exploit other team's mistakes. Teams execute, the most "strategy" I've seen in recent days is M5's jungle invading (which could've been prevented, is sometimes seen on team Q, and wasn't anything "brilliant).
More relevantly, I'm glad FD found a way out. He could've easily ended up working odd jobs and dumping his cash on booze. The part time culture in South Korea can be a scary place for a lone drunkard. It's good to see the e-sports scene hooking up one of their own. Of course, not everyone can become a coach after their competitive star fades. It's much better than seeing Koreans that might not even be good at poker gambling their days away after they can't play anymore. Hopefully by the time everyone's watching Starcraft 5 and CoD 523257025 they'll have a nice filter system to help progamers get into a productive profession after retiring.
Couldn't access the article in the OP but found one on ThisisGame
'Fruitdealer' Kim, Won Ki, now an LoL coach!
Starcraft 2's first ever winner 'Fruitdealer' Kim, Won Ki of Startale is now a coach for League of Legends
The programing team Startale announced on the 5th of March that they are appointing the '2010 Starcraft 2 Open Season 1' champion Kim, Won Ki an LoL coach
The first ever winner of Starcraft 2 League Kim, Won Ki has recently been inactive in the scene to focus his efforts on training the LoL players. Coach Kim, Won Ki has considerable skill so it is expected that he will have no trouble devising strategies and advising his players.
As he takes on his role as an LoL coach, Kim, Won Ki naturally ends his Starcraft 2 career as a player. Startale's head coach Won, Jong Wook says he feels that it's great to have a player like Kim, Won Ki not leave the eSports scene and help the development of his juniors. He says that he feels bad that numerous players have been leaving the eSports scene for various reasons and that Startale will actively try to create a place where many players can continue to be in the scene.
Now, Startale now has Won, Jong Wook as its head coach, Kim, Kwang Bok as the Starcraft 2 coach, and Kim, Won ki as the LoL coach. The friendly competition to come between coaches Kim, Kwang Bok and Kim, Won Ki should prove interesting.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2.
Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
I see what you did there
But seriously the SC2 elitism vs LoL can stop or we can call in the BW 'elitists' and have a real rumble. This really isn't the thread to hate on another game. It's fun, it's competitive and some BW/SC2 players and casters are moving to it.
There's no "better strategy" in LoL, and it's been out a while.
YES THERE IS!! The professional scene in League is not what you think. There are so many concepts and styles to explore in a professional setting of league it's ridiculous. DOTA1 used to be the same way and then disciplined and professional (foreign) teams figured the game out and really brought it to another level.
There's no "better strategy" in LoL, and it's been out a while.
YES THERE IS!! The professional scene in League is not what you think. There are so many concepts and styles to explore in a professional setting of league it's ridiculous. DOTA1 used to be the same way and then disciplined and professional (foreign) teams figured the game out and really brought it to another level.
Dude, get over it. The meta's going to be stale until a champ that has retard-level synergy with a couple others pops out and wrecks it.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
Also, I might add Startale is not very high up there in the LoL scene. I really can't see this as anything other than "get old drunk FD a job while saving money on a real coach."
I'd understand if he had led a great progamer career, but being a flash in the pan, succumbing to alcoholism after your first tournament win, and generally being a lazy progamer really doesn't look like it'd make a great LoL coach. He squandered his potential in BW/SC2 and what's to say he might not squander his players' potential in LoL?
It's nice that they did hook him up though. I don't even know what I'm really saying. I guess I just didn't like what FD was doing lately. I wish he'd have won something or at least tried before going off to coach.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at GOM's vod/viewer numbers...? It's been pretty stable for the last few events (except Blizzard Cup), but it's well below that of several of their earlier events.
The recently finished HOT6iX GSL has higher viewer numbers than January 2011's GSL, which was one year ago and the first season still behind a pay-wall. Although the Open Season 1 and Open Season 2 peaked higher than the HOT6iX GSL's viewer numbers, they seem overall lower. GSL Open Season 3 peaked and has on-average lower views than the HOT6iX GSL.
PS 2011 only PPS gomtv.com numbers are significantly higher than gomtv.net, because korean gsl is free and don't have a pay wall.
Am I the only one that realizes the combined VOD views are in no way representative of declining viewership. I don't know the specifics of how GOM tracks views if it counts one person watching a VOD 3 times as one view or three views. There is a few different things at play here, first thing is that these are VODs not the actual live stream count.(If these are live stream counts and just called VOD for whatever reason than disregard this entire post). Another point is that the older a VOD is the more time it has to accumulate views, so an older VOD will naturally have more views than a newer one(people going back and watching fruitdealer's run through GSL S1?). Another point I guess is the round of 32 having more views than the finals, this should be a dead giveaway that these numbers are meaningless. It's no secret that way more people watch the finals of GSL than any other matches, so the only reason the round of 32 or 16 and so on have more views is because of people going back and watching games they didn't catch live(the finals come to mind here.) Hopefully I have shed some light on what I think is pretty shady use of random statistics.
Please don't be disrespectful just because the numbers don't correlate with your POV. Here's the same data set, averaged:
Statistics is a tool to provide common context, so we can avoid the situations when people choose whichever single datapoint that fit their worldview. The "shady" and "lies, damn lies, and statistics" comes only when statistics are interpreted.
On March 05 2012 14:09 docvoc wrote: is it true that he literally went snowboarding and got drunk? Seriously guys if thats trolling stop it he was the oGs.Cool that won GSL 1 and won it when zergs were having issues against terran, he was the "SaviOr-esque difference" of his time winning when terran seemed to dominate. Still i'm confused why he thinks his SC2 career is over, he could stay on TSL and play Starcraft, be like the TheWinD and coach etc. I'm confused, but maybe LoL is his calling.
He enjoys LoL, during his practice, you always saw him playing LoL just because he enjoys the game. It's an opinion, now people should stop calling LoL an easy game or whatever, it's different, it's still fun for certain people.
But it's a stupidly easy game to master with a low skill ceiling. I'm just as good as my friends who have been playing for two years, and probably even better than them. I just roll Garen and herp derp smash things in the face.
I'm not good at like any video game. I went semi pro in CoD 2, but after that I'm just mediocre at most video games so it's not like I'm a damn exception. I suck at Starcraft 2, it's just a completely different level of skill and strategy.
Hey man SC2 has had 2 years of evolution, we don't know what LoL will be like in 2 years. Just give it time and wait till its fully matured. Look how much HotS will change SC2, you have no idea how much can change, and we will have just as high level play just like SC2.
Also there is no such thing as a skill ceiling, removing tedious things like macro frees up apm so the players can focus better on other more interesting tasks, no macro means more micro and more strategy. Now you don't need to have 300 apm to be good at the game, and people who are better at strategy will win instead of just whoever is a korean mechanical robot.
I see what you did there
But seriously the SC2 elitism vs LoL can stop or we can call in the BW 'elitists' and have a real rumble. This really isn't the thread to hate on another game. It's fun, it's competitive and some BW/SC2 players and casters are moving to it.
I like how you put quotation marks around BW elitists but not for SC2 elitism.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
lol since when? Every mlg and GSL, the 2 biggest tournaments/leagues in the world had their numbers grow EVERY event last year. What are you talking about?
I am not sure about MLG but I read somewhere on a article that GSL viewers decreased every year
I find that hard to believe, since they publicly stated that the DRG Genius finals had 3 times the expected viewers watching live, causing the entire site to crash...
Glad we're getting some old time RTS coaches into the Korean LoL scene =)
I also find this thread extremely hilarious. Complain about BW elitists for a good year then shit on LoL every chance you get? Great job, hypocritical SC2 fan base.
Pro tip, if you don't like the game but never bothered delving into it, stop making baseless, half assed assumptions. It gets really old, really fast when 80% of you don't know what you're saying when bashing LoL.
Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
It's a shame he couldn't continue to elevate his career after his first GSL, but he definitely left an impression when he was in his prime. Even though the majority of the play in the first GSL was pretty craptastic compared to what we're all accustomed to now, his use of 3 range roaches and baneling drops were amazing...oh and the glitched ultras vs thors was great as well.
On March 05 2012 15:48 jongzor wrote: It's a shame he couldn't continue to elevate his career after his first GSL, but he definitely left an impression when he was in his prime. Even though the majority of the play in the first GSL was pretty craptastic compared to what we're all accustomed to now, his use of 3 range roaches and baneling drops were amazing...oh and the glitched ultras vs thors was great as well.
how come you don't mention NYDUS or smart base race?!
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
You dont need to see it at a bar though. Even with barcrafts viewership of LoL exceeds that of sc2. I know alot of people will deny that as false just on fanaticism but its only the truth. Both games are young but as Esports grows so will both an to say that SC2's fan base is larger is just plan false I mean look at IEM Kiev. On the SC2 streams when I was watching there were between 2.5k an 15k but when I was watching LoL I never saw less then 22k viewers. An it being F2P has nothing to do with it. There are just more people wanting to view LoL then SC2 its not a knock on the game since SC2 is an absolutely brilliant game. So just because itll never be viewed at a bar dosnt mean its viewership is any less. An who's to say itll never be shown at a barcraft, I doubt you can see the future.
About the LoL vs DotA comparison. Is the tournament scene really volatile or not?
If there are a group of top "teams"(not individual players but teams) in LoL that can keep playing and keep making money, then it's an legit eSports.
Also besides lack of denying, what else in LoL "easier" than in DotA (legit question, I know nothing about LoL besides the fact it gets hated on a lot >.<).
One really important thing to note in both LoL and DotA is that it's "more so" based on team skill rather than individual skill.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
There's always someone to blame in SC2, yourself, if you aren't blaming yourself then you aren't improving, which is probibly why you're getting frustrated and loosing. Don't generalise based on your experiances.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
There's always someone to blame in SC2, yourself, if you aren't blaming yourself then you aren't improving, which is probibly why you're getting frustrated and loosing. Don't generalise based on your experiances.
ok dude, again, I said "imo" and "I prefer". I didn't generalize.
I remember reading that all he did for a while was play LoL so this doesn't really surprise me.
LoL eliminates the skill gap of unforgiving mechanics that punish you and make you feel like a failure. It's a game that people can play and feel like they are closely related to top players. I feel that is also related to why a lot of people watch it. It is the nature of games that are built around a casual player market first, WoW is also a great example of this. That doesn't mean there isn't a hurdle to be a top player because there most definitely is.
Games like BW, SC2, Quake, and even DOTA, will quickly remind you why you're a nobody even if you're mid to high tier skill level. The skill gaps are tremendous. Really difficult games take hard amounts of dedication and tears. That is why some get elitist about games that require strong fundamentals and life halting dedication to even be anywhere near the top.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
You dont need to see it at a bar though. Even with barcrafts viewership of LoL exceeds that of sc2. I know alot of people will deny that as false just on fanaticism but its only the truth. Both games are young but as Esports grows so will both an to say that SC2's fan base is larger is just plan false I mean look at IEM Kiev. On the SC2 streams when I was watching there were between 2.5k an 15k but when I was watching LoL I never saw less then 22k viewers. An it being F2P has nothing to do with it. There are just more people wanting to view LoL then SC2 its not a knock on the game since SC2 is an absolutely brilliant game. So just because itll never be viewed at a bar dosnt mean its viewership is any less. An who's to say itll never be shown at a barcraft, I doubt you can see the future.
Now that is completely false, the rest of your post I can agree with (yes LoL has easily surpassed SC2) however that part can't be any further from the truth. Why do you think LoL has shat on HoN overall in terms of users and as an e-sport? It's not because LoL is that much better than HoN
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
There's always someone to blame in SC2, yourself, if you aren't blaming yourself then you aren't improving, which is probibly why you're getting frustrated and loosing. Don't generalise based on your experiances.
ok dude, again, I said "imo" and "I prefer". I didn't generalize.
Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
Each of those statements are declaratives.
You should add 'I find' in there a couple of times insted of making statements if you don't want people to take it the wrong way.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
I have to highly disagree with this. I don't mean to bash the game but it really is easy to play and when people make really newb mistakes it can be the most frustrating thing in video-gaming. I understand people make mistakes but when you don't kill the right target don't look at the mini-map don't participate in teamfights not using your ult. I'm not sure if you understand what I mean but there's a difference in making newb mistakes and making normal mistakes
I don't understand how people find SC2 frustrating when its pretty obvious your losses are due to your own shortcomings. Losing in SC2 sucks, but it was never rage inducing for me because I could always look at a replay and see what I did wrong. Playing MW3, on the other hand....ever single death feels like I should not have died. It is the most rage inducing game I have ever played, and thats including Dota and HoN (which I think have the most enraged nerd bases Ive ever experienced).
From my experience, when your losses/deaths feel like theyre as a result of your own shortcomings rather than the game being full of shit there is less frustration because youre in control of how you prevent it from happening next time.
Watching LoL, DotA, HoN,.... is like watching kpop groups, you will always find a girl you like and root for, unlike SC2, I don't like IU, that's it hehe.
On March 05 2012 17:36 Supamang wrote: I don't understand how people find SC2 frustrating when its pretty obvious your losses are due to your own shortcomings. Losing in SC2 sucks, but it was never rage inducing for me because I could always look at a replay and see what I did wrong. Playing MW3, on the other hand....ever single death feels like I should not have died. It is the most rage inducing game I have ever played, and thats including Dota and HoN (which I think have the most enraged nerd bases Ive ever experienced).
From my experience, when your losses/deaths feel like theyre as a result of your own shortcomings rather than the game being full of shit there is less frustration because youre in control of how you prevent it from happening next time.
I think it's the build order losses that make people rage, especially in matchups like ZvZ. 14/14 > 10pool > 15 hatch > 14/14 (etc)
On March 05 2012 17:48 NMx.StyX wrote: don't forget his perfect game vs oGsTop on scrap station, 3base ling muta into ultralisk to destroy Top's mech army... was beautiful
And let's not forget the ridiculous ultralisk damage range bug Blizzard left in to make that possible.
I mean back then I obviously didn't have the same view upon Starcraft 2 as I have now but Fruitdealer did feel like a very skillful player. He seemed really versitile and often went for stuff like Overlord Drops. Also he did stuff intuitively like seen in the his GSL highlight video where he just took some a queen that was somewhat randomly on the map nearby the mutas and transfused them on the go while killing the marines. It's not super spectactular of coujrse but I liked it.
Then he lost to MarineKing (at that time Foxer) and... that's been it for him somewhat. Dunno but he probably really drank a lot, slacked off etc.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
Not only is League of Legends free to play, it is also a social game whereas Starcraft 2 is almost exclusively 1v1. Personally, I enjoy social games a lot more than solitary games.
part of me just died knowing the first GSL winner isnt going to play sc2 competitively anymore. i had such a blast watching the first gsl and thats what really got me into playing sc2 at a high level. rip fd
On March 05 2012 18:01 Caliber wrote: part of me just died knowing the first GSL winner isnt going to play sc2 competitively anymore. i had such a blast watching the first gsl and thats what really got me into playing sc2 at a high level. rip fd
Yeah, I love him too. But everybody has to move on at some point. If he can't get better with SC2 anymore why stick with it? As people in this thread already pointed out, he likes to play LoL, thats where his passion lies now. Doing what you love to do and get paid for it is happiness!!!
I'm actually kinda glad. Fruitdealer was my hero in season one. He was the reason I play Zerg today and it was a little sad to see that he was unable to keep up his level so I'm glad he is moving on to new things.
On March 05 2012 13:07 Forikorder wrote: whats with all the SC players going to LoL coachs...?
they basically gave-up their youth, education, and lives to play video games.. not a lot going for them
ya im sure BoxeR gave up his life to be a succesful SC player, i mean if he did something worthwhile he might be famous world wide made tons of money and had a hot GF
and Polt, i mean he could ahve gone to a high level university or something
People have already mentioned this but nice job picking the best SC player ever and a huge exception to the rule in Polt, the fact is for every Polt there are a dozen B-teamers that we never see who are giving up years of their lives that could go to classes or jobs to play a video game that just by the numbers the majority of them won't be stars in, that's how being a star works. And right now the SCII scene isn't big enough or strong enough to give real prospects to non-stars, hell even some of the most successful players see this, look at Stephano if anyone can make it just on Starcraft he could but he still would rather retire early and start into something else.
You spent your life doing something you are truly passionate about, and are fully enjoying it, how is that wasting away your youth and life? Would you say the same thing to musicians that practice their instrument all day? Would you say the same to athletes that just train all day instead of going to school? How are they any different?
I feel like it is these kinds of stereotypical view about "Video games are bad" in our western society that is truly preventing esport from growing.
Personally, it feel like I'm wasting my life more than those pro-gamers rite now tbh, going to school for 6 hours a day, then going home and cram my textbook and doing hw for another 4 hours.
On March 05 2012 18:13 ETisME wrote: yellow also is a coach for a LoL team now. Seems the heat of LoL is quite strong in Korea too
I view it as kids who get super-excited for the new toy.
I mean ther's not a single Korean team that's even remotely close to be in the top10 of the best LoL teams, yet they are showing an impressive dedication to the game.
On March 05 2012 18:13 ETisME wrote: yellow also is a coach for a LoL team now. Seems the heat of LoL is quite strong in Korea too
I view it as kids who get super-excited for the new toy.
I mean ther's not a single Korean team that's even remotely close to be in the top10 of the best LoL teams, yet they are showing an impressive dedication to the game.
Locodoco's team beat CLG (Top-3 world) in the Korean invite last month. Think again. When they first started getting serious, yeah, they didn't match-up. Three months later, they've actually got a bunch of Korean-local teams and their own server, and are now looking pretty scary.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
I have to highly disagree with this. I don't mean to bash the game but it really is easy to play and when people make really newb mistakes it can be the most frustrating thing in video-gaming. I understand people make mistakes but when you don't kill the right target don't look at the mini-map don't participate in teamfights not using your ult. I'm not sure if you understand what I mean but there's a difference in making newb mistakes and making normal mistakes
its no secret you gotta do 10x more things in sc2 than in LoL. And you need constant concentration, do things quickly, so on. In LoL you can just chill while you're dead or simply teleport back. You have somewhat ingame interaction, chat with people, don't feel lonely. Those things make LoL a better game for me. Afterall game should be fun and relaxing.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
You dont need to see it at a bar though. Even with barcrafts viewership of LoL exceeds that of sc2. I know alot of people will deny that as false just on fanaticism but its only the truth. Both games are young but as Esports grows so will both an to say that SC2's fan base is larger is just plan false I mean look at IEM Kiev. On the SC2 streams when I was watching there were between 2.5k an 15k but when I was watching LoL I never saw less then 22k viewers. An it being F2P has nothing to do with it. There are just more people wanting to view LoL then SC2 its not a knock on the game since SC2 is an absolutely brilliant game. So just because itll never be viewed at a bar dosnt mean its viewership is any less. An who's to say itll never be shown at a barcraft, I doubt you can see the future.
I have heard that LoL live audience is quite small.
On March 05 2012 13:03 dongus wrote: I don't understand. What's there to coach in LoL?
User was warned for this post
I dont understand why this guy gets a warning. I wonder this aswell, what is there to coach in LoL? honestly, Im curious. And this is just quite sad..going from Sc2 to LoL. Imo it's like a step backwards..but I guess he couldnt keep up with the others in the team.
People that think coaches are not necessary are very ignorant, a coaches' job goes beyond making team strategies, they also have to do research on opposition teams, ensure that the team have leadership and unity. They have responsibilities beyond the game such as reporting to/finding sponsors(if they are also the Manager), scouting new players, watch the payroll, pay the bills, drive players to events, talk to their parents if they are minors, register for leagues...etc. The list is endless. These are groups of mostly kids working at a job and they need to be watched over. One manager isn't going to be enough for the entire esport team of more than one game.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
I have to highly disagree with this. I don't mean to bash the game but it really is easy to play and when people make really newb mistakes it can be the most frustrating thing in video-gaming. I understand people make mistakes but when you don't kill the right target don't look at the mini-map don't participate in teamfights not using your ult. I'm not sure if you understand what I mean but there's a difference in making newb mistakes and making normal mistakes
its no secret you gotta do 10x more things in sc2 than in LoL. And you need constant concentration, do things quickly, so on. In LoL you can just chill while you're dead or simply teleport back. You have somewhat ingame interaction, chat with people, don't feel lonely. Those things make LoL a better game for me. Afterall game should be fun and relaxing.
I can understand your feelings~ but for me in SC2 I didn't really get frustrated as much as I see other people getting. Even when I played in BW I didn't get upset just.. got too intimidated to even play games anymore because of how good people were and how difficult I thought the game was.
Going from BW to SC2 was a sort of relaxing transition for me from all the new mechanics and the units. I guess I was too busy enjoying the new game to even feel flustered lol. I've been playing LoL for over a year now and I've felt more rage playing it than both BW and SC2 combined hehe.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
Please don't make up stuff, I don't like LoL that much either, but to shit on it or to lie about it isn't cool.
What are you talking about? The viewerbase has not shrunk considerably lol. The most viewed event was Providence in November and this GSL finals had 3 times the usual amounts of live viewers which caused GOMTV to crash.
I don't get it. Why would Koreans even enjoy LoL? DotA 2 is waay better than it in everything (it's still beta though). Hopefully Korean MOBA pros will all switch over to DotA 2 once it's open beta or final release, for the sake of eSports.
On March 05 2012 20:07 c_kAelle wrote: I don't get it. Why would Koreans even enjoy LoL? DotA 2 is waay better than it in everything (it's still beta though). Hopefully Korean MOBA pros will all switch over to DotA 2 once it's open beta or final release, for the sake of eSports.
SC2 is a game for people with more individuals skills and handspeed, aka pros, and noobs find it hard to keep up with the game and constantly get pwned, whereas LoL is more noob friendly coz it requires alot less individual skills. Since there are always more noobs than pros in the world, LoL will be more popular than sc2.
On March 05 2012 15:41 bokeevboke wrote: Pls stop arguing and comparing, its different genres 1v1 and 5v5. If you think you don't need skill to play LoL then how about basketball? its the same, 5 players vs 5 players, each player has a role, no macro. But it still requires coaching, training and have lots of viewers.
overall, imo LoL is a better game than sc2.
You just said not to compare.... lolol
Dude I was talking about skill-ceiling comparison. But, as a game, as a whole, I prefer LoL over sc2. Its easier, not so frustrating, and there is always someone to blame
I have to highly disagree with this. I don't mean to bash the game but it really is easy to play and when people make really newb mistakes it can be the most frustrating thing in video-gaming. I understand people make mistakes but when you don't kill the right target don't look at the mini-map don't participate in teamfights not using your ult. I'm not sure if you understand what I mean but there's a difference in making newb mistakes and making normal mistakes
its no secret you gotta do 10x more things in sc2 than in LoL. And you need constant concentration, do things quickly, so on. In LoL you can just chill while you're dead or simply teleport back. You have somewhat ingame interaction, chat with people, don't feel lonely. Those things make LoL a better game for me. Afterall game should be fun and relaxing.
I can understand your feelings~ but for me in SC2 I didn't really get frustrated as much as I see other people getting. Even when I played in BW I didn't get upset just.. got too intimidated to even play games anymore because of how good people were and how difficult I thought the game was.
Going from BW to SC2 was a sort of relaxing transition for me from all the new mechanics and the units. I guess I was too busy enjoying the new game to even feel flustered lol. I've been playing LoL for over a year now and I've felt more rage playing it than both BW and SC2 combined hehe.
I never rage in LoL or in SC2. Part of the reason is that I don't care about my ranking. I don't even know what my elo is, and I don't know how to look it up (I'm 30th level for long time). In sc2 I didn't care about my ranking either. I just hop in and try to play some games, have fun, do my stuff - some interesting builds. But in reality, I tend to get frustrated and exhausted. And I feel I wasted my time. Thats why I feel LoL (or maybe any other MOBA) is a better game. I understand its a casual game. But seriously, does someone want to waste their leisure time for "hard-work" game?
On a side note, BW was fun and forgiving. In sc2 one mistake - you're dead. Thats what it makes so frustrating. Its just my opinion. Feel free to ignore.
On March 05 2012 13:14 FinestHour wrote: The LoL scene is growing at such a frightening fast pace, will definitely not be surprised to see it become as big as starcraft in korea...which made me start practicing it
thing is from what ive heard LoL doesnt have much long term viability, i think its mainly the makers who are sponsoring the tournys while Blizz has pretty much washed its hands off supporting SC2 after NASL
also with MLGs winter arena tournaments are starting to figure out how to turn a profit, Sundance has said that the winter arena is a sustainable bussiness without any sponsors (whicch i beleive is the only event in SC2 history) so to sponsors theyll look at LoL and see viewers and an industry that is gobbling up money and theyll look at SC2 and see a scene that is starting to become sustainable and start spending money over there
also i wouldnt be surprised if LoL teams are mainly springing up becuase they see big tourny prises and less that theres a huge giant viewrbase but i dont have access to any numbers here and just guessing
This is really wishful thinking, LoL has a base larger viewer base than SCII just because it's F2P, if SCII manages to ever find a model that is sustainable LoL will too and will have it better, if we don't... they still might, but if they fail with the support their getting and the much higher viewer count (and that's really what matters, the viewer count is what's going to decide how much money tournies make and whether they'll be able to float) then you can be sure that Starcraft will fail too.
lol is F2P which alot of people point at
oh look becuase its free alot of people paly it and watch it
MLG found out how to sustainable with PPV, how many people are gonna say "well if im not even willing to pay to paly the game why would i pay to watch it?"
SC2 viewerbase is growing fast, not jsut people who play the game but alot of people who dont, youll never walk into a bar and see LoL on the screen anytime soon
You dont need to see it at a bar though. Even with barcrafts viewership of LoL exceeds that of sc2. I know alot of people will deny that as false just on fanaticism but its only the truth. Both games are young but as Esports grows so will both an to say that SC2's fan base is larger is just plan false I mean look at IEM Kiev. On the SC2 streams when I was watching there were between 2.5k an 15k but when I was watching LoL I never saw less then 22k viewers. An it being F2P has nothing to do with it. There are just more people wanting to view LoL then SC2 its not a knock on the game since SC2 is an absolutely brilliant game. So just because itll never be viewed at a bar dosnt mean its viewership is any less. An who's to say itll never be shown at a barcraft, I doubt you can see the future.
I have heard that LoL live audience is quite small.
On March 05 2012 20:23 Jyaki wrote: FruitDealer was the reason I started playing StarCraft 2 and as Zerg after watching the GSL finals T_T
I guess you should start coaching League of Legends now, lol. I wonder what he wants to do as a coach in LoL. I mean, he can't observe them as theyre laddering and what would he have to say? 'You have to farm faster!' 'You have to aim that skillshot 2mm lower' ... Wtf?
Fruitdealer will finally get an opportunity to shine , i guess this is good to him because we all knew he sucked at SC2 now . Most foreigners are probably better than FD is so he changed game. Good luck , but LOL sucks
On March 05 2012 20:23 Jyaki wrote: FruitDealer was the reason I started playing StarCraft 2 and as Zerg after watching the GSL finals T_T
I guess you should start coaching League of Legends now, lol. I wonder what he wants to do as a coach in LoL. I mean, he can't observe them as theyre laddering and what would he have to say? 'You have to farm faster!' 'You have to aim that skillshot 2mm lower' ... Wtf?
They're in a team house, and most top teams scrim a lot in customs, so he could always spec there, too. As for coaching...
"You're focusing a lot on trying to keep him out of lane. I know you're practicing a strong style for that, but play smart and think in the long-term: if you don't make any mistakes and die yourself, you will eventually force him out of lane by attrition anyway. Farm first should be your mindset here." "Your positioning is generally pretty bad compared to other top junglers right now. Always keep an eye on the momentum of each lane so you know when to be on which side of the map for potential ganks. You should be able to stay mostly on one side without missing too many creeps."
It's like going from BW to SC2 again. So much over-simplification -_-
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
Good to see FD is staying in the e-sports scene, he had some very unique contributions to SC2 that I'm sure Zerg's have built substantially from.
All this other stuff about comparing LoL and SC2 is pretty odd to see. But hey, sometimes I like to compare apples and oranges (without any hard numbers) from time to time too >
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves.
Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game.
You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills.
Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better.
but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more.
We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
On March 05 2012 13:08 pt wrote: guess ill be the first to say it. in lol, you control 1 character and you have teammates. coaching would be like playing starcraft ^^
Exactly my thoughts lol. Is he good at LoL? Really feel bad for FD since after IEM. Does this mean he'll stop playing SC2?
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves.
Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game.
You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills.
Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better.
but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more.
We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
It's pretty well known than LoL is more popular than SC2 nad its playerbase is huge just like WoW. Which game hold higher status in Esport is different story though.
And professional StarCraft 2 just lost a legend. Fruitdealer was one of the best players in the GSL, but of course not for a long time. Unfortunately things don't always turn out as we want them to. Good luck to him in the future with his LoL coaching career.
FruitDealer probably just did this for a change of pace, and the feeling of actually making progress. His SC2 career became quite stagnant, and he became one of those "Washed-up" pros that used to be good, but just couldn't cut it anymore.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game.
Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game.
You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills.
Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better.
but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more.
We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit.
It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc.
No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true.
LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself.
And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room.
I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game.
Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe.
I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier.
And, let's get real here for a second... have you watched the GSL final last week-end? You just CAN'T beat that with any LoL games, never ever. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game than SC2... but you just can't get this level of excitement from viewing a LoL game.
Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it.
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game.
Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game.
You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills.
Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better.
but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more.
We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit.
It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc.
No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true.
LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself.
And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room.
I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game.
Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe.
I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier.
Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it.
This was one evening I was having a conversation about this exact issue.
Someone named HotshotGG was straming and got 16550 viewers, and according to the top bar on teamliquid. It said there were only 14250 odd people watching sc2 stream, I didn't even take out those listed on tl who don't stream sc2.
This was one LoL stream compared to every sc2 stream listed on TL. Keep in mind this wasn't during any big events. But I think similar results would occur when big events were occuring for LoL and sc2.
It's too bad, but I can understand his decision. He hasn't had any good success since IEM: NY, and even there, nobody expected him to actually do well. It really is a shame, because for a little while he was considered the best in SC2, and I was really psyched to see him in the TSL3.
It's odd how different my image of him is from back then (as in, about a year ago) to how I feel about him now. Oh well, I hope he likes LoL.
I can also understand why there's so much passive-aggressiveness and general contempt for LoL in here. I think people are somewhat jealous and scared that LoL will become the new hot-shot eSport, and that SC2 will fail. I don't think it will, and I think LoL and SC2, as they are very different games, can live alongside each other.
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
one of lol's secrets for audience is to have embedded the stream with the tournaments in its game client I fail to see why blizzard doesnt do that, just put a twich/own3d whatever embedded player when ppl log in on battle.net they will know of big tournaments... Also Riot put like 3 news per day so you know what is going on, Blizzard is so very lazy doing that, it's not even funny and cost them a lot of money for small things
I really don't understand what the point of these types of threads is, they just immediately start at the level of bashing a player's skill and then go even lower to attack his personality / character really fast. It's something I'd expect more at Reddit.
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching.
Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good.
I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game.
Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game.
You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills.
Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better.
but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more.
We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit.
It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc.
No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true.
LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself.
And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room.
I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game.
Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe.
I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier.
Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it.
This was one evening I was having a conversation about this exact issue.
Someone named HotshotGG was straming and got 16550 viewers, and according to the top bar on teamliquid. It said there were only 14250 odd people watching sc2 stream, I didn't even take out those listed on tl who don't stream sc2.
This was one LoL stream compared to every sc2 stream listed on TL. Keep in mind this wasn't during any big events. But I think similar results would occur when big events were occuring for LoL and sc2.
He actually streamed himself building a couch. Got over 10k viewers.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically. Other than control unit you have to macro in SC. I am no pro in Dota but I play Meepo quite often with 4 lane farming. It's just simply more thing to do in SC.
On March 05 2012 13:03 dongus wrote: I don't understand. What's there to coach in LoL?
User was warned for this post
This comment is a bit overrated, but generally it's true. There really isn't a lot of thing in LoL, and even pro gamers has stated the game as quite easy, which is the case and most of the things in this game is knowledge based, rather than skill like learning all the abilities and heroes 100 %.
Someone said there was a lot of coordination for the team, most of those things is quite basic as well but there is a few things. So overall there isn't really tons of stuff in this game to be coached, especially due to the game having a low skill cap
Starcraft is growing as well. LoL has a bigger base since it's easier for casuals to get into and to play since it's free, and yes, it does have more viewers when it comes to streams, but it's not like Starcraft has plateaued. The GSL Finals had three times the average amount and the arena was packed. Look back at the first few finals when it was pretty damn embarrassing on how little Korea came out.
Not saying Starcraft 2 is bigger than LoL in Korea or worldwide, but both are growing e-sports. With the Heart of the Swarm expansion, things might even explode even more popularity wise. Both are widely successful in terms of getting fans to watch, so I don't see the big debate.
Also, good on FruitDealer. He obviously couldn't hang any longer in the SC2 pro scene and he had to make money somehow. Now he can stay at Startale, do something he enjoys, and get paid for it. It would be one thing if he was a Code S-level player and he quit to become a LoL coach, but he has been floundering for a while. His last big accomplishment was IEM New York almost half a year ago.
Yes... there is more streamed games of League of Legends for sure, since there is more players. But, I was talking about "known" streamers.
And, if you would actually read what you are linking... you would understand that this chart, on reddit, is an average. A rating. Therefore, if a streamers is streaming 24 hours straigh but have 1000 viewers... he will have a better rating that Day9, that is streaming at most 2 hours/ 5 times a week, but is having between 7-10k viewers each day. Wich one is more popular to you?
And, I asked one of my friends that is actually a big time into LoL since he is aiming to be a pro... and he basically told me that :
"Well, most LoL pro-players HAVE to streams 14 hours a day to actually eat. Most price pool are really low and are actually split between the team... And team just do not have enough sponsors to actually offer a salary. LoL is a bit more popular on own3d and twitch... but just a bit, knowing that streamers are streaming A LOT longer and by that I mean 6 to 8 times longer. And the fact that they are actually streaming each day at the same hours is helping too... they can set a schedule so people are following team."
A quote by a guy on reddit, that I find actually quite true :
"It may be difficult to do, but the only statistic you present is basically stream ad revenue; as fans we would be much more interested in the size of the fanbase, not the time they spend streaming. I don't get the privacy argument about public streams; I love privacy, but attempting to protect the privacy of someone by not showing things that he deliberately put out there for people to see seems... stupid. If you have someone streaming once a week for an hour and having an average of 100k people watching (and maybe a couple million watching the show in the archive) and somebody else streaming 4 hours a day with 4k viewers average then it would be very clear who would be the more successful of the two, it wouldn't even be close, yet your results would show the opposite. If you only want to show one statistic, choose average viewers. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than viewerminutes."
This off course turned out as a fight Sc2 vs LOL ...
As for the LOL vs Sc2 discussion , the proof that LOL is easier is Fruitdealer himself .. He is a SC2 pro , but on LOL he is a coach , because he has the mentality and knowledge to help the guys on LOL .
Lets hope that MVP, DRG, MMA,Nestea dont change to LOL also , they would own the scene for a fews years
LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
That is playing Meepo.
On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:
On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:
On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote: I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well.
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically.
Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne.
A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now.
I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's.
On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote: LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
No one can dispute the popularity of LoL, as it pulls several times the viewers of SC2 at major events. Obviously the main reason for this is the fact that the game its free and better for casuals (easier than SC2, also team game).
However I feel that blizzard is also not doing enough to promote SC2 compared to riot, who pretty much sponsors all major LoL tournaments while blizz doesn't do anything. Blizz is too lazy to even do small things like notify people on game client about major events while riot does this extensively through news and links to streams in live events, which I think maybe costing SC2 quite a lot of views.
And good luck fruitdealer, will never forget the first GSL even though I was supporting Rainbow
GL to him wierd but, why is this in SC2 genral? I don't see what it means for sc2 he hasnt participated in recent tourneys and he is going to coach LoL nothing to do with sc2.
On March 05 2012 18:13 ETisME wrote: yellow also is a coach for a LoL team now. Seems the heat of LoL is quite strong in Korea too
I view it as kids who get super-excited for the new toy.
I mean ther's not a single Korean team that's even remotely close to be in the top10 of the best LoL teams, yet they are showing an impressive dedication to the game.
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
That is playing Meepo.
On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:
On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:
On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote: [quote]
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!!
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically.
Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne.
A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now.
I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's.
On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote: LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
I have played WC3,BW,SC2. It may be that I have played WC3 before and in WC3 you have to keep your units alive unlike SC which you can effort to lose some unit. I do 2-2 and 1-1-1-1 sometimes when I feel my opponents are pretty bad. I play in cafe in Thailand. Dota is really popular here. You may be surprised if you see cafe in Thailand:D. There's many young kids(8-12 years old) that can play Dota at reasonable level(can be pub stomper). They really love the game. I believe that the difficulty of Dota game lies in teamwork not mechanic.
Yes... there is more streamed games of League of Legends for sure, since there is more players. But, I was talking about "known" streamers.
Who is a known streamer in your eyes? There are several people in LoL that get more than 10k viewers on average, and a lot more people with consistently 4-6k viewers. I can just think of idra (as a player) who always gets over 10k viewers. So i dont see how SC2 has more known or popular streamers.
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
That is playing Meepo.
On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:
On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:
On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote: [quote]
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious.
LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it.
No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy.
Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference.
Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc.
A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation.
This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain.
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development.
edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote: Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically.
Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne.
A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now.
I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's.
On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote: LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
I have played WC3,BW,SC2. It may be that I have played WC3 before and in WC3 you have to keep your units alive unlike SC which you can effort to lose some unit. I do 2-2 and 1-1-1-1 sometimes when I feel my opponents are pretty bad. I play in cafe in Thailand. Dota is really popular here. You may be surprised if you see cafe in Thailand:D. There's many young kids(8-12 years old) that can play Dota at reasonable level(can be pub stomper). They really love the game. I believe that the difficulty of Dota game lies in teamwork not mechanic.
Hehe I'm not surprised. Most of the players here are Thai or Vietnamese ^_^, but maybe not as young, mostly teenagers.
Actually I have a really good example of MOBA vs SC2 and skill. Wen was a top DotA player who got rank #1 GM in SEA and held top 3 for quite a while I used to practise with him a lot and was my brother's [real life] friend. He was only around 16-17 at the time I think. Although his playstyle was very different, very micro-oriented, all his units would never die and have ridiculous kill ratings, like 1 Immortal with 3 forcefields around it soloing Zerglings, his VoidRay micro was also the best I had ever seen. His 3 gate Stargate vs Terran was really really scary, apparently he had never lost in that matchup.
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
LoL has been around for more than 2 years so I don't see how this argument could be valid. And there will always be haters who'll blame their team for their own lack of skill. That's the main disadvantage of LoL with sc2. The fact that you will have a whiner in your team once in a while, something that won't happen when you play 1v1 in sc2 .
On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote: LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
I agree , besides being completely free , LOL is just much more easier for casual gamers...
It´s like playing COD or Quake 3 / Aq2 , i played action quake 2 that was an awesome game and some Q3 , when cod came everyone loved it because its much easier than Cs 1.6 and Quake games , so more players..
All my close friends that bought SC2 , 4 dont play anymore , 4 play just custom games or 4v4 league .. I am the only one who still plays 1v1
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Simply put :
Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all.
Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet.
SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Simply put :
Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all.
Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet.
SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2.
How is it a fact that you need more dedication time or training to be the best in sc2 compared to lol?
Seriously? why are all the people hating on LoL? it's just the same as BW-people were acting towards SC2 and everyone was like "F***ing elitists" and now you are doing exactly the same? but whatever... I tried to convince my brother and my roommate about Starcraft, but it failed in both cases. The game was too difficult, "I'm just not good at this" and so on. And I really think that's true. You can play LoL without much knowledge of anything but you can't play Starcraft like that. So they started to play LoL and now they are hooked with that game and watch streams and shit. I don't get what they like but it's is just their taste. It was easier to get into and so they stayed with it. Understandable but sad :/
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
You can commit to doing anything for 8 hours a day if you choose to do so, but some activities (and being successful in them) will still be harder than the others.
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
You can commit to doing anything for 8 hours a day if you choose to do so, but some activities (and being successful in them) will still be harder than the others.
That doesn't answer my question. What specifically makes practicing lol that much easier than sc2? Time aside, how is one specifically more difficult than the other, and how does this make LoL worse or less legitimate?
Funny how much bashing and hate towards LoL, everyone pissed because LoL stream numbers piss on SC2 numbers or what? Jesus. You check the LoL subforum here and you won't see the regulars bashing on SC2 or even direct competitors like HoN or Dota2. So much misinformation about the game, scene, streams and events as well it's quite frankly sad.
Here's food for thought, team games are inherently harder to be the top of the top than solo games, where you don't have to rely on 4/9/10/X/Y amount of other people to make plays. There's usually coaches for team games too I've heard.
Gl to FD, hope he gets startales team competing at the highest level, we need more korean/chinese teams enter the scene.
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. A Pro game should not be fun and casual, it should be hard and extremely challenging.
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. Pro game should not be fun and casual, they should be hard and extremely challenging.
I know tons of people that play team games and ums games casually, does this make sc2 less of an esport? I fully realize you are being sarcastic btw.
On March 06 2012 01:45 daemir wrote: Funny how much bashing and hate towards LoL, everyone pissed because LoL stream numbers piss on SC2 numbers or what? Jesus. You check the LoL subforum here and you won't see the regulars bashing on SC2 or even direct competitors like HoN or Dota2. So much misinformation about the game, scene, streams and events as well it's quite frankly sad.
Here's food for thought, team games are inherently harder to be the top of the top than solo games, where you don't have to rely on 4/9/10/X/Y amount of other people to make plays. There's usually coaches for team games too I've heard.
Gl to FD, hope he gets startales team competing at the highest level, we need more korean/chinese teams enter the scene.
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. Pro game should not be fun and casual, they should be hard and extremely challenging.
I know tons of people that play team games and ums games casually, does this make sc2 less of an esport? I fully realize you are being sarcastic btw.
That's because it's not 1v1 i guess. It's like if Summoner Rift was really hard and competitive, and Dominion very casual and fun. ( i guess you could see it that way )
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. Pro game should not be fun and casual, they should be hard and extremely challenging.
I know tons of people that play team games and ums games casually, does this make sc2 less of an esport? I fully realize you are being sarcastic btw.
That's because it's not 1v1 i guess. It's like if Summoner Rift was really hard and competitive, and Dominion very casual and fun. ( i guess you could see it that way )
At the highest levels it is, I mean bw had a casual scene on the blizz servers with people playing ums and bgh and shit, it doesn't make it any less of an esport. Shit, tons of people had fun just playing with their friends in normal games even if they sucked. Accesibility is almost entirely irrelevant.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Simply put :
Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all.
Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet.
SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2.
How is it a fact that you need more dedication time or training to be the best in sc2 compared to lol?
You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. A Pro game should not be fun and casual, it should be hard and extremely challenging.
I like both games, but for different reasons. Who cares if the game is so easy, sure it doesn´t have any mechancical difficulty, but if people like watching it, why shouldn´t it be an esport?
On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed.
People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. A Pro game should not be fun and casual, it should be hard and extremely challenging.
I like both games, but for different reasons. Who cares if the game is so easy, sure it doesn´t have any mechancical difficulty, but if people like watching it, why shouldn´t it be an esport?
I said it's what most people think of LoL. I don't personnaly care. In my opinion LoL will probably die because of the amateurism of proplayers, the fact that mainly Riot is paying for the tournaments and because Valve are too awsome for not winning in the end. But that's my personnal opinion here.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Simply put :
Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all.
Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet.
SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2.
How is it a fact that you need more dedication time or training to be the best in sc2 compared to lol?
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
So...no chance of seeing Destiny become EG's LoL coach?
im not naniwa fan... but I agree with him... you can play 8 hours a day 1month any game and you become a very good player... you can play 8 hours a day sc2 1month 2months ... and even so you need to watch replays, learn some strats etc.
And... FruitDealer, I start playing sc2 thanks to him back in blizzcon 2010 showmatch vs BoxeR. There is no zerg with similar style . I hope he comes back to sc2 =(
Although it's really sad to see him go since he was the reason I stuck to playing Zerg since his run in GSL Open Season 1, but good luck to Fruitdealer and his team
He always has been my Zerg hope and his GSL win will still live on though! Pretty sad to see him go...
Since I don't really have another thread to post this idea, I'll just throw it in here.
The main difference between the growth of SC2 and LoL/Dota2 is in the casual fanbase. Some casual players may eventually get serious about the game and try to go pro and become a new talent - larger playerbase = potential for larger profession scene. This is one of the main reasons a lot of people thought SC2 would kill off BW in the first place since a lot of the amateur players would switch over to SC2 and leave the BW scene stagnant.
As to why I think the growth of SC2 isn't as high as it could be - casual players like to play SC2 because they can control big armies. But often times they're cut short because of all-ins and risky early game strats so that's why we get a lot of forum posts complaining about them. In LoL/Dota2, you usually control 1 unit for most of the time (some heroes can get up to ~20) so there is never a complaint of not being able to get to the 'end game'. Balance can be an issue for both types of games but I find people place their blame on different things. In LoL/Dota2, a hero/champion might be a really strong carry late game but the blame falls on your team because you messed up on the ban/pick phase - you could have banned that hero/champ or picked a lineup that punishes their early game so the other team has no chance to come back. In SC2, the blame goes to the opponents and Blizzard - 'oh, how could you abuse that really strong strat' or 'Blizzard can't balance for shit in XvX'.
You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
A few of these statements are just flat wrong.
A match starts with bans so that you won't be able to play your best champ if the other team knows you at all. You then have to counter pick each lane and jungler when a match starts. That means being better than proficient at multiple champions (typically why pro's play as AP carry, jungler, etc. - not as one specific champion).
Once the game starts, yes, there is one simple mechanic of last hitting (I will agree this is a simple macro mechanic, which makes LoL easier to pick up, but at pro levels macro is a non issue in RTS). The rest is entirely strategic. Your team has to win dragon which usually means a team fight, and the execution of each ability in these team fights can drastically change who will win the game. You also have to maintain your own objective blue and red buffs, which can be stolen so you need constant/good map awareness. Once everyone has leveled enough, Baron becomes the next most important objective to control and take, and can make or break a game.
Objectives aside, you have to be fairly amateurish to think there is no dynamic aspect of item builds. There are five people on the other team trying to counter your team. That means you have to pick the right items in combo with the right champs on your team, and quite often this leads to a high degree of variability in the items each player gets in each match. That doesn't mean there aren't core items (usually three on carry's, but high variance on tank/support/jungler), so a lot of the items are never the "get this every match", they are responsive to the enemy team comp/item build and your champions specific strengths. And while it isn't common to sell items right now, its becoming a lot more common late game when the gold is available and teams need a different edge on one another.
So decision making is pretty much all there is to it
Isn't this the point of every RTS? and if yes, why bother comparing when they all boil down to this?
Every pro who commentates any RTS are constantly analyzing their decisions (and those of their teammates), not mechanics (unless something is going very wrong), and those decisions are the only interesting part of these games (at least to me).
I'm not trying to say LoL is harder than SC2 or that it is better, I'm saying least refrain from comparing because they rely on different sets of decisions making, and yes, are entirely different games.
You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
A few of these statements are just flat wrong.
A match starts with bans so that you won't be able to play your best champ if the other team knows you at all. You then have to counter pick each lane and jungler when a match starts. That means being better than proficient at multiple champions (typically why pro's play as AP carry, jungler, etc. - not as one specific champion).
Once the game starts, yes, there is one simple mechanic of last hitting (I will agree this is a simple macro mechanic, which makes LoL easier to pick up, but at pro levels macro is a non issue in RTS). The rest is entirely strategic. Your team has to win dragon which usually means a team fight, and the execution of each ability in these team fights can drastically change who will win the game. You also have to maintain your own objective blue and red buffs, which can be stolen so you need constant/good map awareness. Once everyone has leveled enough, Baron becomes the next most important objective to control and take, and can make or break a game.
Objectives aside, you have to be fairly amateurish to think there is no dynamic aspect of item builds. There are five people on the other team trying to counter your team. That means you have to pick the right items in combo with the right champs on your team, and quite often this leads to a high degree of variability in the items each player gets in each match. That doesn't mean there aren't core items (usually three on carry's, but high variance on tank/support/jungler), so a lot of the items are never the "get this every match", they are responsive to the enemy team comp/item build and your champions specific strengths. And while it isn't common to sell items right now, its becoming a lot more common late game when the gold is available and teams need a different edge on one another.
So decision making is pretty much all there is to it
Isn't this the point of every RTS? and if yes, why bother comparing when they all boil down to this?
Every pro who commentates any RTS are constantly analyzing their decisions (and those of their teammates), not mechanics (unless something is going very wrong), and those decisions are the only interesting part of these games (at least to me).
I'm not trying to say LoL is harder than SC2 or that it is better, I'm saying least refrain from comparing because they rely on different sets of decisions making, and yes, are entirely different games.
Riot essentially marketed LoL as an easier version of DOTA. The same way SC2 took BW gameplay and simplified it, LoL took DOTA and simplified it. I won't argue which game is better or worse, that's all based on opinion and preference, but it's pretty concrete which games are harder between DOTA, SC2, LoL. LoL was aimed to be a more casual friendly MOBA, and it's had massive success because of that. They don't try to hide the fact that it's easier, that's their main selling point.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Naniwa lives in a house with a LoL team, I'm sure he knows a lot about how hard they practice.
I mean I don't think anyone was really surprised.. There was news of FD playing LoL more than SC2 like months ago. Sucks to lose a part of SC2 history to LoL but I wish him success in whatever he does. FD fighting.
On March 06 2012 06:01 StuartLove wrote: Fruitdealer is/was a nonfactor in SC2, idk why u give him somuch attention
He won GSL Season 1 when Zerg was thought to be the race that was unwinnable with. He did it with a touching story, and he is still remembered from the genesis of SC2.
On March 06 2012 06:01 StuartLove wrote: Fruitdealer is/was a nonfactor in SC2, idk why u give him somuch attention
he did what no zerg could do and what no zerg should have even been able to do. win as zerg in a tournament setting when kulas ravin (and steppes of war??), CLOSE position LT/Meta/DQ (LOOOOOL DQ) was in the map pool? Also i believe reaper speed was still avail at the tech lab and you could still make a rax before depot (maybe?).
he was the ONLY zerg in the ro8. him and check were the ONLY zergs in ro16. all zergs fell, including thewind, idra, artosis, cella, cezanne, and losira.
fruitdealer will always be the number 1 zerg player winning when winning was impossible.
Thanks for giving this a seperate thread, I would never have found out elsewise.
I've posted my views on LoL extensively elsewhere; suffice to say I don't give it much credence as a competitive strategy game - it's little more than WoW pvp with fewer buttons to push.
However, I am glad FD has a way to make a living in the esports industry since his SC2 skills did not continue to keep up with even the foreigners. Terrible if he ended up as a janitor or something because he gave it all up for the dream.
I mean there may be more honour in cleaning than switching to LoL, but hey a man's gotta eat /joke
This is a core problem of esports, there will never be a stable game like soccer*futbol*. If no game can last more than 10 years that is a core problem.
On March 06 2012 06:01 StuartLove wrote: Fruitdealer is/was a nonfactor in SC2, idk why u give him somuch attention
I once saw Fruitdealer - in a single game - do all of the following:
A) Force multiple scans with a tunnel-roach drop in the opponent's main B) Punish an opponent's lack of AA by using Overlord creep-dump to block addons C) Break a Terran turtle with a Baneling/Ultra bust to win the game
This was in Beta, when every other Zerg was just massing Roach Hydra.
On March 06 2012 09:55 zimz wrote: This is a core problem of esports, there will never be a stable game like soccer*futbol*. If no game can last more than 10 years that is a core problem.
Correction, only TWO game have lasted more than a decade in E-sport. You know the ones.
On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote: Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
User was warned for this post
Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Naniwa lives in a house with a LoL team, I'm sure he knows a lot about how hard they practice.
I don't really get this, not hating on LoL or anything but what can FD teach a LoL team? He can't teach them how to play since I'm guessing the team is a lot better at the game then FD himself. He also can't teach them training mentality and stuff like that cuz if there's 1 thing FD was lacking it was a proffesional attitude.
It just doesn't make sense to me, so i'm guessing it's a publicity stunt.