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On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't.
So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players...
Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this?
Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general
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On February 26 2012 02:51 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't. So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players... Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this? Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general
Nope, by that logic the game should be balanced around ALL league players. Balance is not about players skillz. By your logic, if bisu switches to SC2 and start dominating all, and winning all tournaments, protoss should be nerfed? Because he can ownn all.
My point is that you cant use a single player as example when talking about balance, nor a dozen players, you really need to think about the race and not about the skill of the most skilled.
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4713 Posts
You can't take Polt vs Lucky on Antiga and Terminus as reference point games because, Polt was ahead most of the time in both games, denying 4th lots of times, and constantly dropping and sniping tech from Lucky. While Lucky also played poorly and didn't push out when he needed too, plus made tons of other small mistakes, and had bad reaction to drops.
And no, you can't cite preventing the zerg from going to Hive or dropping him constantly as a valid response. Good zergs will adapt, put up defenses and prevent some of those shenanigans. You need to have a response at all stages in the game early, mid and late.
We've yet to see a zerg hold of that kind of stuff and go into a late game situation resembling NesTea vs MvP at Blizzcon, where both have relatively intact economy/ infrastructure and see how the resulting armies fare against each other.
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On February 26 2012 03:45 MurdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:51 SkimGuy wrote:On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't. So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players... Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this? Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general Nope, by that logic the game should be balanced around ALL league players. Balance is not about players skillz. By your logic, if bisu switches to SC2 and start dominating all, and winning all tournaments, protoss should be nerfed? Because he can ownn all. My point is that you cant use a single player as example when talking about balance, nor a dozen players, you really need to think about the race and not about the skill of the most skilled.
well it is flawed logic then
because clearly the game should be balanced only at the very top level when balance actually matters
who cares if you lose to something in Gold league, you're just playing casually, odds are it's not related to balance at all but to your own lack of skills
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On February 26 2012 03:45 MurdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:51 SkimGuy wrote:On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't. So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players... Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this? Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general Nope, by that logic the game should be balanced around ALL league players. Balance is not about players skillz. By your logic, if bisu switches to SC2 and start dominating all, and winning all tournaments, protoss should be nerfed? Because he can ownn all. My point is that you cant use a single player as example when talking about balance, nor a dozen players, you really need to think about the race and not about the skill of the most skilled.
You cannot balance for ALL league players, it is simply impossible since pro's simply can do way more with less.
If you balance for lower then the absolute top you will break the top.
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No? Take a look at bw dude please  !
If you balance the GAME, all the players will be ok, if you balance arround the top players new imbalanced will come up again and again. There is no way to know if top players from one race are really better than top players of another race.
Examples???? Flash, Boxer, NaDa, etc. Dominated so hard the scene and no patches were launched arround them, patches were launched arround the GAME.
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On February 26 2012 03:54 MurdeR wrote:No? Take a look at bw dude please ! If you balance the GAME, all the players will be ok, if you balance arround the top players new imbalanced will come up again and again. There is no way to know if top players from one race are really better than top players of another race. Examples???? Flash, Boxer, NaDa, etc. Dominated so hard the scene and no patches were launched arround them, patches were launched arround the GAME.
there were about no more balances patches when they were at the top, and blizzard wasn't taking this as seriously either
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well the polt games aren't a good showcasing, as it was antiga ... going deathball on antiga is autoloss with every race. But yeah pulling off viking marine is way easier then mass ghosts, as you prepare your army as terran and hold a pf position while you harass the zerg if he is out in the open and wait for the broodlords to be exposed.
This strategy is basically the easiest to pull of for terran and while the zerg can beat its probably on even difficult level. The important factor is a pf between you and the broodlord army as broodlords infestors don't do enough damage to the pf.
Its also nothing new or anything, but its really defensive, while with ghosts you could attack more easily directly into the zerg and zerg had no idea how to deal with it until recently.
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On February 26 2012 04:00 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 03:54 MurdeR wrote:No? Take a look at bw dude please ! If you balance the GAME, all the players will be ok, if you balance arround the top players new imbalanced will come up again and again. There is no way to know if top players from one race are really better than top players of another race. Examples???? Flash, Boxer, NaDa, etc. Dominated so hard the scene and no patches were launched arround them, patches were launched arround the GAME. there were about no more balances patches when they were at the top, and blizzard wasn't taking this as seriously either
There were no more balance patches because the game was balanced allready, bw has perfect balance at D,C,B and A leagues and that is the proof that it is possible. If blizzard keep making "patches" over another "patches" blindly, they will ruin the game 
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4713 Posts
I'm hoping Polt vs Stephano, or maybe another game at MLG will have a situation where both terran and zerg can enter the late-game relatively stable and we can than see the result of a BL, Corrupter, Infestor army with support against what a terran can muster against it, and see how it does. I'm quite sure Blizzard is hoping for something like that as well. Hell, I want as many of those games as possible so people finally stop theory crafting and can take the time to analyze.
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On February 26 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:
I'm hoping Polt vs Stephano, or maybe another game at MLG will have a situation where both terran and zerg can enter the late-game relatively stable and we can than see the result of a BL, Corrupter, Infestor army with support against what a terran can muster against it, and see how it does. I'm quite sure Blizzard is hoping for something like that as well. Hell, I want as many of those games as possible so people finally stop theory crafting and can take the time to analyze.
Mech vs Hive tech or late game terran
SPOILER alert :
+ Show Spoiler +MLG winter arena i saw Thorzain vs Sheth and Demuslim vs Nestea where both terrans went mech and where able to take the game to the 40 min mark against the zerg deathball and win. I was really against the ghost nerf BUT I am very hopeful!
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On February 25 2012 23:05 Steglich wrote:
Terran tears are so sweet.
Zerg tears even more sweet. I know it hurts your ego to accept that your wins aren't because of skill, but please stop crying. It's embarrassing.
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On February 26 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:
I'm hoping Polt vs Stephano, or maybe another game at MLG will have a situation where both terran and zerg can enter the late-game relatively stable and we can than see the result of a BL, Corrupter, Infestor army with support against what a terran can muster against it, and see how it does. I'm quite sure Blizzard is hoping for something like that as well. Hell, I want as many of those games as possible so people finally stop theory crafting and can take the time to analyze.
Blizzard doesn't really care. If they did, they would fix the core issues instead of putting band aids on every problem. Instead of fixing warp gate (which is a dumb mechanic that has no place in an RTS) , they made the research time longer. Instead of fixing Terran bio versus mech/air unit imbalance (Terran higher tech is weak while bio is strong) they nerf Ghosts. Instead of reworking Terran so that their early game is weaker but their late game is better, they nerfed a lot of Terran early game strategies (1/1/1, rax build time, supply before rax, etc) and thus killed all of the stuff Terran innovated. Instead of fixing fungal by making it a slow rather than a complete immobilize, they lower the damage, etc. They've always taken the easy way out that appears to be leading to more "balance" but in reality just covers up or even worsens the problem.
This latest Ghost change is just going to lead to Terran playing even more of an all-in style, because of how difficult it is to compete in the late game with Zerg and Protoss. It's funny because so many of the pros are starting to come about this too (Idra interview, he talks about how Terran shouldn't win against Broodlords after Ghost change unless the Zerg messes up, also check out I think it's Taeja's interview after beating a European Toss at ROG, he says how Terran has a hard time in the late game in 200/200 battles against Protoss).
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Retired random player Perscienter says: 'I see again, why I retired.'
Lol, nerfing the Ghost further. One of the interesting units, with a lot of versatility. NERFED.
Then they add another boring upgrade.
This game is so pale. At least, there should have been a good story.
On February 26 2012 13:23 Scila wrote:
... also check out I think it's Taeja's interview after beating a European Toss at ROG, he says how Terran has a hard time in the late game in 200/200 battles against Protoss).
*putting on the brain stimulator, which lets me think like a Blizzard employee*
Well, no problem, see. The High Templars lost their energy upgrade. Just finish them and these stupid War of the Worlds Tripods. Lower their splash damage and minimize the radius of Psi Storm further.
Maybe we also need an rng to simulate more realism. Tripods should miss sometimes, it's hard from up there to hit anything. We are so progressive!
*putting it off*
Enjoy the competition.
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The ghost issue isn't whether it's BL or Ultras, its the fact that zergs can switch between them by having one additional building, yet Terran has to massively prepare for it way before it happens. I haven't seen one of these cases yet, so I still think the ghost nerf was really bad. Especially since mech has so many flaws, there's a reason marine/tank is the standard for TvZ.
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On February 26 2012 03:45 MurdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:51 SkimGuy wrote:On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't. So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players... Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this? Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general Nope, by that logic the game should be balanced around ALL league players. Balance is not about players skillz. By your logic, if bisu switches to SC2 and start dominating all, and winning all tournaments, protoss should be nerfed? Because he can ownn all. My point is that you cant use a single player as example when talking about balance, nor a dozen players, you really need to think about the race and not about the skill of the most skilled.
its impossible to balance the game for all leagues. it should be balanced for the pro-level and for nothing else - because any other result is meaningless to the balance.
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On February 26 2012 02:51 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:18 Confuzzled wrote:On February 26 2012 00:38 envisioN . wrote:
For all you people Q.Q about BL/Infestor dominating Terran late-game, look at how TSL.Polt dismantled Lucky when Lucky went up to BL/Infestor in Game 3 of the Winter Assembly Semi-Finals. The key to beating it is harrassing in multiple locations with drops, marine-runbys and having a huge spread on the vikings in the final battle. There are like a dozen people in the world who can do that, .... the rest of us can't. So by that logic the game should be balanced around Diamond league players... Balance does not compensate for lack of skill. (i.e Just because you're bad doesn't mean it's imbalanced) How hard is it for people to understand this? Not a cheap shot at you in particular, but to everyone complaining in general
balance should take all factors into account with you seem to be missing. the ease of doing a strategy and countering it for one. going brood lords is as simple as most other combinations, but forcing terran to do multiple drops/marine runbys around the map with the risk of running into corruptors/infestors at a base is very hard.
stephano is arguably one of the best players in the foreign scene, if not the world, but that does not mean that the game is balanced for the terran if he loses 3-1 to polt. currently the only way to beat broodlord/infestor is to get a big enough lead in the early game so that you have a high siege/marine count and he has a low infestor count.
while i agree with you with what he is saying is stupid and doesnt denote balance, what you are saying is wrong too.
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terran just skipping ghost altogether now and keeping zerg on 3 bases.
great fix blizzard!
"ghost was slightly too effective in TvZ, so we made it unviable, awful and a useless waste of resources"
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On February 26 2012 13:23 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:
I'm hoping Polt vs Stephano, or maybe another game at MLG will have a situation where both terran and zerg can enter the late-game relatively stable and we can than see the result of a BL, Corrupter, Infestor army with support against what a terran can muster against it, and see how it does. I'm quite sure Blizzard is hoping for something like that as well. Hell, I want as many of those games as possible so people finally stop theory crafting and can take the time to analyze. Blizzard doesn't really care. If they did, they would fix the core issues instead of putting band aids on every problem. Instead of fixing warp gate (which is a dumb mechanic that has no place in an RTS) , they made the research time longer. Instead of fixing Terran bio versus mech/air unit imbalance (Terran higher tech is weak while bio is strong) they nerf Ghosts. Instead of reworking Terran so that their early game is weaker but their late game is better, they nerfed a lot of Terran early game strategies (1/1/1, rax build time, supply before rax, etc) and thus killed all of the stuff Terran innovated. Instead of fixing fungal by making it a slow rather than a complete immobilize, they lower the damage, etc. They've always taken the easy way out that appears to be leading to more "balance" but in reality just covers up or even worsens the problem. This latest Ghost change is just going to lead to Terran playing even more of an all-in style, because of how difficult it is to compete in the late game with Zerg and Protoss. It's funny because so many of the pros are starting to come about this too (Idra interview, he talks about how Terran shouldn't win against Broodlords after Ghost change unless the Zerg messes up, also check out I think it's Taeja's interview after beating a European Toss at ROG, he says how Terran has a hard time in the late game in 200/200 battles against Protoss).
Explain how the ghosts were nerfed against toss please? Infact they were buffed.
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