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On February 27 2012 10:30 SirMilford wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 13:23 Scila wrote:On February 26 2012 04:05 Destructicon wrote:
I'm hoping Polt vs Stephano, or maybe another game at MLG will have a situation where both terran and zerg can enter the late-game relatively stable and we can than see the result of a BL, Corrupter, Infestor army with support against what a terran can muster against it, and see how it does. I'm quite sure Blizzard is hoping for something like that as well. Hell, I want as many of those games as possible so people finally stop theory crafting and can take the time to analyze. Blizzard doesn't really care. If they did, they would fix the core issues instead of putting band aids on every problem. Instead of fixing warp gate (which is a dumb mechanic that has no place in an RTS) , they made the research time longer. Instead of fixing Terran bio versus mech/air unit imbalance (Terran higher tech is weak while bio is strong) they nerf Ghosts. Instead of reworking Terran so that their early game is weaker but their late game is better, they nerfed a lot of Terran early game strategies (1/1/1, rax build time, supply before rax, etc) and thus killed all of the stuff Terran innovated. Instead of fixing fungal by making it a slow rather than a complete immobilize, they lower the damage, etc. They've always taken the easy way out that appears to be leading to more "balance" but in reality just covers up or even worsens the problem. This latest Ghost change is just going to lead to Terran playing even more of an all-in style, because of how difficult it is to compete in the late game with Zerg and Protoss. It's funny because so many of the pros are starting to come about this too (Idra interview, he talks about how Terran shouldn't win against Broodlords after Ghost change unless the Zerg messes up, also check out I think it's Taeja's interview after beating a European Toss at ROG, he says how Terran has a hard time in the late game in 200/200 battles against Protoss). Explain how the ghosts were nerfed against toss please? Infact they were buffed.
Insteand of 2 Hitting Templars they now .... 2 Hit them. It makes zero difference against HT's . Against Zealots on the other hand its gone from pretty useful to completely useless. And yes snipe was used quite alot against Zealots , not in the big fights but , after the fight it was pretty useful to clean up remaining/reeinforcing Zealots with your remaining Ghost energy. Now that option is basically gone .
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Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG.
Typical terran players 
I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for.
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On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for.
I take it you didn't watch both finals did you? Stephano just kept falling apart in his games against Polt, and MKP cheesed out a lot of wins against DRG (only one of them making it to the late game, which is where the ghost nerf problem laid in the first place).
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On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for.
Neither of them had to face broodlords (except Polt in one game, and that was only 4 or 5 which Stephano exposed to marine fire...). Neither of them had to face a switch from BLs to Ultras or the reverse.
Terrans never said that they'd lose every tournament, just that they'd be a lot less likely to win against a Zerg deathball or a Zerg late-game techswitch, most likely resulting in more terrans using more cheese and more mid-game all-ins if they want to keep winning.
EDIT: I'm talking about the finals, not the other games.
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I didn't get to see every game played across both tournaments this weekend, but did the patch play a role at all? I didn't see the phoenix upgrade or late game ghosts, and there were no gold bases iirc. Was the timing of this patch as terrible as everyone claimed it would be, or was it really not an issue?
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On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for.
Wow, I cannot seriously stop laughing at that ^^^^^. I literally just pissed myself laughing.
For starters, did you even watch MKP's games? No one ever said Terran couldn't win early game. It's Terran late-game against Zerg and Protoss that is the problem.
I am just honestly amazed after 60 pages of posts with Terrans saying late-game is the problem and you get such a retarded post as the one above. Hahahahahaha.
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On February 27 2012 13:38 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for. Wow, I cannot seriously stop laughing at that ^^^^^. I literally just pissed myself laughing. For starters, did you even watch MKP's games? No one ever said Terran couldn't win early game. It's Terran late-game against Zerg and Protoss that is the problem. I am just honestly amazed after 60 pages of posts with Terrans saying late-game is the problem and you get such a retarded post as the one above. Hahahahahaha.
As much as I love to see Terran win, I also hate it because I know nothing will be done to address the problems that plague every single Terran, pro and on ladder although everyone might not see it. Unless everyone suddenly was forced to play each race their won't be any recognition of difficulties.
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On February 27 2012 13:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I didn't get to see every game played across both tournaments this weekend, but did the patch play a role at all? I didn't see the phoenix upgrade or late game ghosts, and there were no gold bases iirc. Was the timing of this patch as terrible as everyone claimed it would be, or was it really not an issue?
I know from watching some late game tvz that turtle mech was incredibly powerful. I know 3 games at least from friday where the terran beat the deathball with pure mech, vikings + thors + tanks and worked great.
I think what made it so strong was the fact that since thors do splash and when corruptors go to attack vikings they clump and so the thors did a lot of damage to the corruptors, then with vikings were able to kill the broodlords.
In general the whole "terran can't win late game" was proven wrong at least 3 times in this tournament (demuslim vs nestea, thorzain vs leenock I believe, thorzain vs sheth were the 3 games I saw late game scenario tvz where terran won). I only saw friday so no idea about saturday or today. I do know there was a game where zerg won with the deathball late game but i'm sorry if zerg isn't supposed to ever win with it or it will be OP then thats dumb
So in all, terrans are already adapting different ways to fight the deathball of zerg and thus can still win in the late game.
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On February 27 2012 13:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I didn't get to see every game played across both tournaments this weekend, but did the patch play a role at all? I didn't see the phoenix upgrade or late game ghosts, and there were no gold bases iirc. Was the timing of this patch as terrible as everyone claimed it would be, or was it really not an issue? I watched the vast majority of Assembly and I didn't see anything that was affected. When Polt faced infestor/brood he just outplayed the zerg and beat him anyway with drops.
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On February 27 2012 13:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 13:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I didn't get to see every game played across both tournaments this weekend, but did the patch play a role at all? I didn't see the phoenix upgrade or late game ghosts, and there were no gold bases iirc. Was the timing of this patch as terrible as everyone claimed it would be, or was it really not an issue? I know from watching some late game tvz that turtle mech was incredibly powerful. I know 3 games at least from friday where the terran beat the deathball with pure mech, vikings + thors + tanks and worked great. I think what made it so strong was the fact that since thors do splash and when corruptors go to attack vikings they clump and so the thors did a lot of damage to the corruptors, then with vikings were able to kill the broodlords. In general the whole "terran can't win late game" was proven wrong at least 3 times in this tournament (demuslim vs nestea, thorzain vs leenock I believe, thorzain vs sheth were the 3 games I saw late game scenario tvz where terran won). I only saw friday so no idea about saturday or today. I do know there was a game where zerg won with the deathball late game but i'm sorry if zerg isn't supposed to ever win with it or it will be OP then thats dumb So in all, terrans are already adapting different ways to fight the deathball of zerg and thus can still win in the late game.
Well it depends ALOT on the Map. There's some Maps where Mech in general is extremely weak since you can very easily get flanked/countered/dropped,nydussed etc and struggle to take suffiencent bases against Zerg to finance going Mech.
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On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for.
ZzZzZZzzzzZZzzzzzZZ.... Sounds like whining to me. Lol.
All I can say is, Top Terrans win 'coz they are able to take advantage of their race and use it to its fullest.
Long Live the Terran Dominion!
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pretty much every terran victory over zerg in MLG and assembly was either:
a) terran completely outplayed zerg in every way imaginable (Polt)
b) beat zerg in early game or caused enough damage to make zerg have a terrible economy and ultimately crushed zerg with a timing attack when the zerg's ultra/brood army was a pathetic 50-60 supply (MKP, puma) or
c) went turtle mech and forced impatient zerg player to a-move into a million tanks, vikings, thors and ravens. (thorzain, demuslim). because zerg haven't found an answer to this style yet. unless blizzard nerf it in the next month or so.
zerg are skipping the entire midgame. it's a complete joke, and almost insulting to terran players, that they can expect to win after skipping the baneling or roach production and get a <15 minute hive. that's a broken game.
that's like terran or protoss having a rediculously strong and viable 15 minute battlecruiser or carrier transition.
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On February 27 2012 22:57 shizna wrote:
pretty much every terran victory over zerg in MLG and assembly was either:
a) terran completely outplayed zerg in every way imaginable (Polt)
b) beat zerg in early game or caused enough damage to make zerg have a terrible economy and ultimately crushed zerg with a timing attack when the zerg's ultra/brood army was a pathetic 50-60 supply (MKP, puma) or
c) went turtle mech and forced impatient zerg player to a-move into a million tanks, vikings, thors and ravens. (thorzain, demuslim). because zerg haven't found an answer to this style yet. unless blizzard nerf it in the next month or so.
zerg are skipping the entire midgame. it's a complete joke, and almost insulting to terran players, that they can expect to win after skipping the baneling or roach production and get a <15 minute hive. that's a broken game.
that's like terran or protoss having a rediculously strong and viable 15 minute battlecruiser or carrier transition.
I have been saying for awhile that late game zerg pawns T and P. I don't know why blizzard won't look at it yet or no one talks about it. Like an elephant in the room....
Also I am not sure in PvZ if its actually late game or the midgame leading up to it.
Zerg can so easily deny that third of toss (toss have to get the extras gas) with roach ling all the while they get enough gas to support super fast hive. It forces toss to try and deny the third of zergs going almost allin off two base.
Zerg already has the most powerful ability to tech switch and remax the fastest.
I don't feel there bl/infestor/spine army should as powerful considering toss and terran tier three are so slow to build and require much more infrastructure....
Its just silly to try and play a macro game against zerg...
It also getting very old listening to the argument "don't let them get to hive and 80 drones".
It pigeonholes how you can play the game and make it far too predictable when your always trying to hit perfect timings....
Genius probably has the best PvZ out there with Naniwa close behind. BOTH go for clever two base pushes, not macro games. We have seen this before where toss figures out clever timings and once zerg figures how to hold them they go back to winning.
Its just far too risky to go late game vs zerg as you end up trying to rely on gimmicky/broken mothership+archons OR for the zerg to make a huge mistake....
Watch Seal vs Squirtle in current GSL up and downs. I know its just one game but damn lategame zerg is just undeniably broken.....
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Still SEA unavailable :'( ?
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So now you dont want to drop mules at gold bases?
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On March 04 2012 08:35 Zhul wrote:
So now you dont want to drop mules at gold bases?
Yes, unless you're near mining out of your other bases. It'd be better to use SCVs and get the mineral boost than to use MULEs when they are just as effective anywhere else.
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On February 27 2012 22:57 shizna wrote:
pretty much every terran victory over zerg in MLG and assembly was either:
a) terran completely outplayed zerg in every way imaginable (Polt)
b) beat zerg in early game or caused enough damage to make zerg have a terrible economy and ultimately crushed zerg with a timing attack when the zerg's ultra/brood army was a pathetic 50-60 supply (MKP, puma) or
c) went turtle mech and forced impatient zerg player to a-move into a million tanks, vikings, thors and ravens. (thorzain, demuslim). because zerg haven't found an answer to this style yet. unless blizzard nerf it in the next month or so.
zerg are skipping the entire midgame. it's a complete joke, and almost insulting to terran players, that they can expect to win after skipping the baneling or roach production and get a <15 minute hive. that's a broken game.
that's like terran or protoss having a rediculously strong and viable 15 minute battlecruiser or carrier transition.
almost as ridiculous as having thors and templars at the 15th minute, now that would be a joke!
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On February 27 2012 13:38 fiveohfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:16 stormchaser wrote:Terrans complain they will lose every tournament because of ghost nerf> Polt wins ROG Tournament> MKP wins MLG. Typical terran players I think terran is still a problem, but we'll see how GSL goes the next couple of months. Hopefully HOTS makes the big changes we've all been waiting for. Wow, I cannot seriously stop laughing at that ^^^^^. I literally just pissed myself laughing. For starters, did you even watch MKP's games? No one ever said Terran couldn't win early game. It's Terran late-game against Zerg and Protoss that is the problem. I am just honestly amazed after 60 pages of posts with Terrans saying late-game is the problem and you get such a retarded post as the one above. Hahahahahaha.
Did you even watch MKP's games? Like the one where DRG got ultras? (but i guess you're just going to say that if he had gotten broodlords it would have been an instant loss?) How about Demuslim vs Nestea?
This "Terran are so awful late game I literally urinated in my pants at the idea they can win a late game" mentality is just pathetic. And I don't care how many pages of posts there are, you guys don't make it fact.
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On February 28 2012 02:20 Rorschach wrote:
I have been saying for awhile that late game zerg pawns T and P.
That you said late game Zerg is better than late game Protoss is adequate reason not to be taken seriously. Ever heard of the Blink-Stalker-Archon-Mothership-Colossus ball? Try microing 12 slow-ass Brood Lords against a double vortex with about 4 Archons jumping in it. Try preventing a Stalker-Colossus ball from roasting your Roach-Infestor joke of a late-game army, and then try preventing the Stalker Archon combo from bringing your stacked up BLs from 100% HP to 0% in about 2.5 seconds. Any Protoss that complains about late-game Zerg is even more stupid than all the Protoss who took over a year to realize how ridiculously powerful Mass Recall is, let alone the late game auto-win button called the Archon Toilet.
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On March 04 2012 08:39 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 08:35 Zhul wrote:
So now you dont want to drop mules at gold bases? Yes, unless you're near mining out of your other bases. It'd be better to use SCVs and get the mineral boost than to use MULEs when they are just as effective anywhere else.
Well that depends on your strategy. If your strategy is to mine out the gold ASAP, and have a mineral stockpile for the late game, then by all means MULE the gold. The gold is designed to mine out fairly quickly, I think, and by MULEing the gold, you get the faster resources without mining out of your other bases so fast, which in turn means that you won't have to expand as aggressively when it comes to the late game. If you want to stay on the gold for an extended period of time, don't MULE it, but I'd think that any Terran who wants to have a more stable late-game should spend as many of his/her MULE cycles as they can on the gold base, which is designed to be a short-term high-reward scheme on most maps and in most strategies.
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EPT
