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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 26 2012 02:01 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 01:56 Fallout wrote:On February 26 2012 01:42 Serelitz wrote:On February 26 2012 01:40 Fallout wrote:
Here in sweden major newspapers and tv-stations streams some of the bigger events like dreamhack etc. because it generates viewers. If this would be ppv. this would not be possible and thousands of people will miss it out. I fail to see how this is gonna make e-sports bigger. Not every event will be PPV, this is just for sustainability so they don't have to rely on sponsors to go with the hype. Look at what happened to CS as an e-sport, look at WSVG, there have been PLENTY of e-sport companies that have gone out of business because they were making a loss. FXO boss has blogged about how FXO makes a loss. MLG has stated that they run a loss. E-sports isn't sustainable without a PPV business model (or something else that makes a lot of money). Relying on sponsors hasn't worked in the past. If this was to be successful for mlg, why should not all the others do the same? Why should IPL, dreamhack, assembly get the same opportunity? And that would not affect the viewers? Maybe FXO and mlg is running a bad model i´f they are making losses? I haven't heard EG complaining or mouz or gsl. And cs? Why are you throwing such a bad example? Whys is cs dying? Because of money, or is it cuz it's getting old and followers are dropping and new games take it's place? esports is improving if you have missed it. Not because there is so much money, but cuz it's out there for everyone. CS died because sponsors left. Just because not every business is making their numbers public doesn't mean every business is doing well. If SC2 relies on just sponsors/ads it will die out just like CS eventually. MLG is also not making all their events PPV. There'll always be free events, just like there are daily events vs weekly vs yearly events.
And the sponsors left because there were too many viewers? Seriously, who are you trying to fool? Starcraft will not die as long as the number of viewers are big.
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i seriously dont get it why they would do this, fair enough that it is a business and they need the monies, but i thought they were doing reasonably well with their earlier model - pay for high quality streams, get revenue from ads and sponsors, and ticket sales from the live event. From the consumer stand point it just looks like they are getting greedy and just want to squeeze out every penny from us.
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On February 26 2012 02:17 mockturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:09 Serelitz wrote:On February 26 2012 02:03 Stubentiger wrote:
Didn't CS die just because it was an old game? Then why do you think BW lived so long? Because of huge korean sponsors backing teams. Sponsors back out means the teams disband. The same happened for CS, the same happened for a lot of major leagues like CSL, WSVG etc. edit: still can't buy the PPV with paypal, I get a creditcard pop-up but it says I'm a verified member. Fuck this, seriously. Maybe you haven't used it that much and thus don't know, but Paypal is a giant steaming pile of shit and you're lucky if it ever works. Welcome to the club. Sorry. Also: sponsors backing out is not as big of an issue as sponsors moving to similar alternatives. Sponsors stopping CS tournaments and sponsoring other FPS tournaments is critical, because the hungry players are capable of moving on to the game that is getting paid. The foreign BW scene was crushed the second SC2Beta came out even though there was barely any money in it to begin with because there was money in SC2. The only vital thing to an esport is competition. Even if few people care and there's little money, people will still scrape together tournaments with whatever funds and people are available for the sake of the sport. However, when players can move on to a different game and find sponsors/money there, they'll leave and the competition evaporates.
I know paypal is a steaming pile of shit but lacking a credit card it's kind of my only option. Apparently ideal/direct debit aren't used a lot outside the netherlands.
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Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there or will there be any cheaper passes for only the remainder of the tournament?
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today i learned:
PPV couldve rescued Counter Strike 1.6
Damnit.
cs died because there are no new players coming. everyone wants to play cod/bf3 and stuff.
if there would be enough people playing/watching CS regularly it still would be huge and sponsors would be interested
On February 26 2012 02:19 sPlosH wrote:
i seriously dont get it why they would do this, fair enough that it is a business and they need the monies, but i thought they were doing reasonably well with their earlier model - pay for high quality streams, get revenue from ads and sponsors, and ticket sales from the live event. From the consumer stand point it just looks like they are getting greedy and just want to squeeze out every penny from us.
NOOOOO! they save esports!!!
they arent greedy!
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On February 26 2012 02:20 Pey wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there or will there be any cheaper passes for only the remainder of the tournament?
Not that I know of.
But Sundance 'get's it' and maybe they work on it 
They hinted at it.
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On February 26 2012 02:09 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:03 Stubentiger wrote:
Didn't CS die just because it was an old game? Then why do you think BW lived so long? Because of huge korean sponsors backing teams. Sponsors back out means the teams disband. The same happened for CS, the same happened for a lot of major leagues like CSL, WSVG etc. edit: still can't buy the PPV with paypal, I get a creditcard pop-up but it says I'm a verified member. Fuck this, seriously.
don't really think that bw was ppv
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Can anyone tell me what their viewer count currently is? would just be interesting to know if this business model is going well :D.
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On February 26 2012 02:23 Stubentiger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:20 Pey wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there or will there be any cheaper passes for only the remainder of the tournament? Not that I know of. But Sundance 'get's it' and maybe they work on it They hinted at it.
Thanks, much appreciated
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On February 26 2012 02:26 CeroFail wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:09 Serelitz wrote:On February 26 2012 02:03 Stubentiger wrote:
Didn't CS die just because it was an old game? Then why do you think BW lived so long? Because of huge korean sponsors backing teams. Sponsors back out means the teams disband. The same happened for CS, the same happened for a lot of major leagues like CSL, WSVG etc. edit: still can't buy the PPV with paypal, I get a creditcard pop-up but it says I'm a verified member. Fuck this, seriously. don't really think that bw was ppv
No it wasn't, and now major sponsors are backing out. The only reason it was even worthwhile is because it had such huge viewership (still dwarfs SC2) and because it was localized. The fact that we even have regional ads shows that target audience localization matters.
But whatever, this has been discussed to death for 220 pages already. If you don't think it's worth it that's fine, but if you think MLG is being greedy or that the current business model is sustainable you should try reading kennigit/sundance's twitter comments or boss' blog about e-sports as a market.
But ofcourse, they're all lying because they just want your money, it's a conspiracy by the evil e-sports capitalists who don't provide everything for free.
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On February 26 2012 02:27 Versioned wrote:
Can anyone tell me what their viewer count currently is? would just be interesting to know if this business model is going well :D.
They will not tell, no company really does unless it is great or they have to.
Most likely we will hear, "it was as expected" or "beyond expectations", but a measurement will be if they hold the other Arena events and for how much.
Big Disaster would mean no Arena at all, if they made a minor loss, they change the pricing/day system, or if it was a real profit they keep at it and hype the event more.
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On February 26 2012 02:19 sPlosH wrote:
i seriously dont get it why they would do this, fair enough that it is a business and they need the monies, but i thought they were doing reasonably well with their earlier model - pay for high quality streams, get revenue from ads and sponsors, and ticket sales from the live event. From the consumer stand point it just looks like they are getting greedy and just want to squeeze out every penny from us.
But the events that you refer to in their "earlier model" still exist and remain exactly how they were last year. The arena events are something that they added and you could not buy them and still enjoy what you are used to.
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Here in sweden major newspapers and tv-stations streams some of the bigger events like dreamhack etc. because it generates viewers. If this would be ppv. this would not be possible and thousands of people will miss it out. I fail to see how this is gonna make e-sports bigger.
I don't understand what your argument is. By making an event PPV, it increases the value of that content or footage elsewhere. Showing highlights on a tv station attracts more viewers to the tv station if the original viewing cost money than if it was free. More people will look at teamliquid live for MLG Arena results than if they could just watch MLG Arena.
If this was to be successful for mlg, why should not all the others do the same? Why should IPL, dreamhack, assembly get the same opportunity? And that would not affect the viewers? Maybe FXO and mlg is running a bad model i´f they are making losses? I haven't heard EG complaining or mouz or gsl. And cs? Why are you throwing such a bad example? Whys is cs dying? Because of money, or is it cuz it's getting old and followers are dropping and new games take it's place? esports is improving if you have missed it. Not because there is so much money, but cuz it's out there for everyone.
No one has any money. Period. Stop thinking that because you haven't heard anyone complaining that everyone is rolling in money. Korean BW is the only example of sustainable esports that has existed, ever. Korean SC2 is modeled after that, is also in South Korea, and is growing cautiously. People don't complain because explaining to everyone you don't have any money isn't the best way to grow business. GSL can give away their show for free in Korea because advertising to a giant audience in one city is exponentially more valuable than an audience spread around the entire world. They offer a low quality stream for free in the wee hours of morning for the rest of the world and the rest rely on a PPV model even more expensive and less valuable than MLG (mlg releasing the vods a week later, GSL releases the vods like a year later) and their non-Korean content is heavily subsidized by the fact that the studio, players, tournament, etc. is all things they'd pay for for their Korean content regardless. Their foreigner revenue just has to pay for tastosis, moletrap, khaldor, website design, and bandwidth.
It's arguable whether esports is improving. Viewer numbers are high, but streaming video is growing exponentially in all fields and it's something that just wasn't available. Here's a bombshell for you: the first major Starcraft tournament in the west took place over 13 years ago, was hosted by a now-defunct (obviously) advertising driven company who was sponsored by the same kind of companies now (like AMD, nvidia). They held an online qualifier, flew 8 people to a live final with a stage and audience (along with 8 finalists for Quake 2 and some finalists for Quake1 team DM), and gave out $8500 for first (compared to 5k first for an MLG event last year) along with money paid down to 16th place. That was fourteen years ago. In 2005 fatality won $150k for winning the CPL for Painkiller, a game people barely gave a shit about then and certainly don't care about now. The business side of esports is not growing because it's never existed outside of waves of hype advertising the next big thing.
If MLG is successful than any major tournament capable of putting on a premier event should switch to PPV. If you don't love Starcraft enough to pay a few dollars to watch it, then I guess you'll have to make due with the ridiculous amount of free advertising based content that will still be out there. If a PPV driven company still has free content as part of their business model, you can enjoy the fact that your free content will be even better because it will be subsidized by their profitable ppv business model.
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On February 26 2012 02:34 Serelitz wrote:
The only reason it was even worthwhile is because it had such huge viewership (still dwarfs SC2) and because it was localized.
Let me clarify something: MBCGame (R.I.P.) and OGN are cable channels. Why are you even bothering comparing the viewership?
Those cable channels are regionalized and the big ones still get very high ratings. -_-
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how come i can watch the vods of yesterday?
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Without subscription? A week later they said.
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i can watch them right now :O
nvm, it was jsut one test vod it seems
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Mlg only proved that its not professional enough to host a ppv event. (all bumping problems,vod problems, free viewers etc.)
Its funny how they were so sure how their product was worth 20dollars.
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On February 26 2012 03:14 lottopk wrote:
Mlg only proved that its not professional enough to host a ppv event. (all bumping problems,vod problems, free viewers etc.)
Its funny how they were so sure how their product was worth 20dollars.
I spent $20 and definitely think its worth it, so do a lot of other people.
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On February 26 2012 02:36 Stubentiger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 02:27 Versioned wrote:
Can anyone tell me what their viewer count currently is? would just be interesting to know if this business model is going well :D. They will not tell, no company really does unless it is great or they have to. Most likely we will hear, "it was as expected" or "beyond expectations", but a measurement will be if they hold the other Arena events and for how much.Big Disaster would mean no Arena at all, if they made a minor loss, they change the pricing/day system, or if it was a real profit they keep at it and hype the event more.
Sundance said yesterday that this one was going really well and there would definitely be more Arenas.
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EPT
