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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 15 2012 16:02 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 15:32 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 15 2012 15:17 tdt wrote:On February 15 2012 15:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 15 2012 14:55 tdt wrote:On February 15 2012 14:49 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Some random thoughts on the whole situation. Maybe they're silly but maybe they're worth consideration. I'd email them in to MLG as food for thought but I'm not entirely sure where to send them.
What about charging in an a la carte method for those who can't catch the whole weekend? (Numbers are made up, can be changed around obviously) What if they charged say $5 a day and $10 for all 3? If you could only sit down and watch the sunday championship games then you throw down $5 and can still catch your games. Theoretically that's still more money in their pockets than they would get from someone that could only watch a day or 2 and just said "f it".
What about monetizing through barcrafts? Make it a completely opt in situation so some of the smaller "mom and pop" style barcrafts can just pay the $20 and watch their games. But maybe have a "barcraft package" where a larger barcraft can buy in for say $200 (made up, but bars do have to pay a LOT more for PPV packages than the normal consumer in general). For that price maybe MLG sends them a little swag bag for the barcraft to raffle off or whatever. A few T shirts, a sweatshirt, mousepads, whatever. Maybe they throw to a live webcam during a break as well to give them props. Obviously the price point would need to be at a place where MLG makes a profit after giving the barcraft stuff, but still not so much where the barcraft would feel screwed.
I dunno, to me, on paper at least, it seems like those are a few avenues that haven't been looked at that could do well. All these ideas about monitizing are complete bullshit until you have a killer app. For example, Back when Zuffa bought UFC they sunk 80 million into it to make it a must watch before they turned a dime. Before that they got 4000PPV and were bankrupt.. Yes, takes money to make money and innovation too. That's where places like GSL and HSC come in. GSL has the best. HSC lets you get up close and personal. What is MLG? just another ordinarily FREE tournament who invites players and pays a rather paltry sum. No Thanks. I'm aware of Zuffas beginnings. I believe I was the first to bring them up in one of these threads. The fact of the matter is MLG has decided to go with charging people. I understand their need to charge so they don't go under. I don't believe they went about it in quite the right manner. I also don't believe they explored all the possibilities and the $20 price point was setting the bar too high. I agree with Alex Garfield that $10 would have been the smart money. I also believe something like my second suggestion (which is completely optional) would have been a way to provide them a little revenue without all the backlash. If the people behind MLG have any sense (and other tourney organizers for that matter) they'll be combing through all these threads to learn from this "mistake". I'm merely throwing out ideas. I don't know if $10 is smart but certainly putting the cost less than the premier tournament (GSL) instead of above it couldn't hurt. But I still stand by my comment that you need a killer app to ask for money when there are plenty of FREE alternatives. People make purchases on relative value, not charity ("supporting esports" canard). Well if they were deadset on charging $10 could be a whole lot less staggering to the community. I have no proof obviously, but I'm personally convinced they'd get over twice as many subs at $10 than they will at $20. It would have been wiser IMO for them to let the first event of the year be a free "proof of concept". Let people see what they can expect, then charge at the next event so people aren't completely in the dark as to what they're going to get for their money. Charging for things to be the same as they were in 2011 is silly, I'm sure they're going to try and iron out things. They've always improved with each MLG in 2011. MLG does give you a decent product. I'll admit I've never caught the IPL championships, only a bit of HSC, a few GSL games (but GOM player hates me so I can't watch it). But I think MLG has the best announcers, they try and get koreans in to help legitimize it as not just a tier 2 tourney. They're on a better timeslot in the US which is nice compared to GSL. But the downtime between games can be unprofessionally long, pauses during a game to sort things out, things of that nature are big strikes against them. In 2011 it was decent, I overall enjoyed things, but decent doesn't necessarily warrant money. I'd like to see them succeed but time will tell. They've claimed they're running at a net loss so they can't tread water forever. I'm skeptical about everything but I want to hope the best. I don't want this to be a money grab with no conscience behind it. I don't want sundance in the MLG crew to fold. I like (not love) most of what they do. So I just wanted to toss out some ideas that maybe they hadn't thought about (or other tourney organizers). I agree with your sentiments and predictions in general. I have no problem with a money grab either if market warrants it. Good businessman should get paid large and do because they give you something worth it. Obviously, from the majority of responses in this thread MLG is not yet there.
I more meant I'm fine with people making money as long as they're not actively trying to rape the scene to make a buck.
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Russian Federation676 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:05 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:01 human_ko wrote:
I wish I knew what PPV meant lol.... You PAY PER VIEW (PPV). As in if you want to see event you pay for it. It's a revenue generator for many events in the west.
does it mean there will be no free quality? also per view means every time I go to site or how?
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On February 15 2012 16:09 human_ko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:05 tdt wrote:On February 15 2012 16:01 human_ko wrote:
I wish I knew what PPV meant lol.... You PAY PER VIEW (PPV). As in if you want to see event you pay for it. It's a revenue generator for many events in the west. does it mean there will be no free quality? also per view means every time I go to site or how?
Pay 20$ to gain access to the entire event. No free Stream. Free VODs a week later.
On February 15 2012 16:05 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:01 human_ko wrote:
I wish I knew what PPV meant lol.... You PAY PER VIEW (PPV). As in if you want to see event you pay for it. It's a revenue generator for many events in the west.
"in the west" is a little bit far stretched. I can't talk about the rest of europe, but at least in germany PPV is very uncommon. Almost everything is based around subscriptions, rather than pay per view.
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Yeah at least in Finland you don't ever see any TV shows charging even close to that much. It's like 20€ a YEAR for like 50 different TV channels that have content 24/7...
Whereas this is 20$ for a few days of content couple hours a day.
See the problem here?
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I'd say it's kind of expensive, but who E-sports to function through a stable economy, it kind of has to go this way. Honestly, Id pay for a ticket to see MLG events, ALL YEAR LONG, but 20$ for 3 days. Come on now MLG, don't pretend like you're just giving GOM the market.
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On February 15 2012 16:09 human_ko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:05 tdt wrote:On February 15 2012 16:01 human_ko wrote:
I wish I knew what PPV meant lol.... You PAY PER VIEW (PPV). As in if you want to see event you pay for it. It's a revenue generator for many events in the west. does it mean there will be no free quality? also per view means every time I go to site or how?
No free. And to watch the event you pay, presumably you pay only once.
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I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2
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i think companies that offer a product online really underestimate the laziness factor of someone like me.
it went from a totally anonymous, 1-click, quick and easy process of watching MLG when it happened to be on.
now, i have to go to the site, see i have to pay money, go get my credit card, enter information, make another user name that i won't remember and supply a password that i'll probably forget as well...all this while dozens of other streams are seconds away.
oh, and that's not even taking into account that i feel screwed over when i notice i've missed 1/2 of day 1 or i'm uncertain about my plans the next day.
honestly, PPV kind of sucks in general for something that's not a long pass (maybe a year) or a 1-day thing. they should really consider a pricing plan that goes down as the event goes on, or maybe a pay-by-day option as well.
having said all of that, if i could hand someone a twenty, i'd probably watch it as it's not really about the money for me. but, i can't, so i won't.
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On February 15 2012 17:18 kurosawa wrote:
I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2
The GSL has the best players and the best production. They also host their finals in a big venue albeit not as large as the MLG championship ones.
In my opinion the MLG doesn't provide a stream viewer experience worth the $20 for 3 days. Especially now that there's no crowd. I'd gladly pay 30-40 bucks to actually attend a MLG but not $20 for a weekend when there's a month of GSL/GSTL content for the same price.
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@kurosawa
People don't shout and scream about GOMs premium ticket because it's voluntary, there are cheaper and even free options. At MLG you are forced to buy, that's the point of this entire thread.
Also, for the customer the comparison between the two is very relevant since they're producing a similar product and are competing for the same audience. That one of the parties has a better business model and infrastructure and can therefor keep a lower price doesn't make the comparision less valid.
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On February 15 2012 17:31 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 17:18 kurosawa wrote:
I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2 The GSL has the best players and the best production. They also host their finals in a big venue albeit not as large as the MLG championship ones. In my opinion the MLG doesn't provide a stream viewer experience worth the $20 for 3 days. Especially now that there's no crowd. I'd gladly pay 30-40 bucks to actually attend a MLG but not $20 for a weekend when there's a month of GSL/GSTL content for the same price.
That's why I'm saying that MLG is overreaching or their business model is slightly wrong.
I cant fault GSL coverage - I think it's good in general. Just that there is no atmosphere really. GOM studios only seat about 20 - 30 people max.
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Yeah, that's just not happening.
I really don't mind paying for great content, like the GSL/GSTL and so on. But 20$ for a weekend is just too much. And it's not even like I can't afford it - i simply refuse out of principle.
PPV sucks.
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On February 15 2012 17:32 Longshank wrote:
@kurosawa
People don't shout and scream about GOMs premium ticket because it's voluntary, there are cheaper and even free options. At MLG you are forced to buy, that's the point of this entire thread.
Also, for the customer the comparison between the two is very relevant since they're producing a similar product and are competing for the same audience. That one of the parties has a better business model and infrastructure and can therefor keep a lower price doesn't make the comparision less valid.
Fair enough. Just wanted to shed light on production comparisons between GOM and MLG. But to be honest I dont think GOM will keep a free stream for much longer. It just doesnt make financial sense for them to.
2012 will be the year where we will be having many discussions related to eSport pricing. Things cant be given out for free indefinitely, especially when sponsorship dollars arent big when compared to more established sports. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
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On February 15 2012 17:34 kurosawa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 17:31 karpo wrote:On February 15 2012 17:18 kurosawa wrote:
I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2 The GSL has the best players and the best production. They also host their finals in a big venue albeit not as large as the MLG championship ones. In my opinion the MLG doesn't provide a stream viewer experience worth the $20 for 3 days. Especially now that there's no crowd. I'd gladly pay 30-40 bucks to actually attend a MLG but not $20 for a weekend when there's a month of GSL/GSTL content for the same price. That's why I'm saying that MLG is overreaching or their business model is slightly wrong. I cant fault GSL coverage - I think it's good in general. Just that there is no atmosphere really. GOM studios only seat about 20 - 30 people max.
And the atmosphere in the winter arena with no audience would be....?
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On February 15 2012 17:18 kurosawa wrote:
I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2
What you're neglecting is GOMtv runs essentially every day. Opposed to MLG might have an event every couple months(and of course it isn't cheap flying 32 people out, etc). Additionally, MLG charges a lot for spectator passes, player passes, etc(obviously this Arena isn't a spectator event). GOMtv doesn't charge anything.
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On February 15 2012 16:05 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:01 human_ko wrote:
I wish I knew what PPV meant lol.... You PAY PER VIEW (PPV). As in if you want to see event you pay for it. It's a revenue generator for many events in the west.
Make that the US... Not "the west"...
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On February 15 2012 17:40 Xcobidoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 17:34 kurosawa wrote:On February 15 2012 17:31 karpo wrote:On February 15 2012 17:18 kurosawa wrote:
I want to come out and say that 20 USD for 3 days of a qualifier event is slightly outrageous.
BUT CONSIDER THIS:
I had a weekend trip to Seoul this weekend and took the chance to visit GOM.tv to watch some GTSL. My impressions of the venue and set up was that it was pretty much done on the cheap.
The venue is extremely small and the studio didnt look top notch. I may be jumping to conclusions here but I'd hazard to guess that it doesnt cost GOMtv that much to run the GSL (prize money excluded of course) due to a few reasons:
1) The venue was out of the way and not city center so rent not so expensive. The GOMtv studios is in fact in a school for visual media (high school)
2) I think a lot of the crew at GOMtv may have been recruited from the school as interns. I dont think staff costs are that high
3) Internet in Korea is among the fastest and cheapest in the world. I'd assume fixed costs for streaming are not that high.
Now think about MLG and the production costs and rental, staff salaries etc and realise that their overheads are going to be enormous compared to GOMtv. Those of you comparing MLG to GOMtv are doing it wrong. Yet the premium monthly pass for GOMtv is 19.99 yet people dont shout and scream about that.
Now the argument that MLG may be overreaching and trying to do things too fast and too big is valid. Shame that it has come to this already, in only the second full year of SC2 The GSL has the best players and the best production. They also host their finals in a big venue albeit not as large as the MLG championship ones. In my opinion the MLG doesn't provide a stream viewer experience worth the $20 for 3 days. Especially now that there's no crowd. I'd gladly pay 30-40 bucks to actually attend a MLG but not $20 for a weekend when there's a month of GSL/GSTL content for the same price. That's why I'm saying that MLG is overreaching or their business model is slightly wrong. I cant fault GSL coverage - I think it's good in general. Just that there is no atmosphere really. GOM studios only seat about 20 - 30 people max. And the atmosphere in the winter arena with no audience would be....?
Ummm Im commenting generally? Circuit events? I have no idea why Winter Arena has no audience. I can take a guess and say that if they wanted to rent a bigger venue to accommodate an audience it wouldve been cost prohibitive as it's in New York. So as I said, Winter Arena is a pretty badly put together event all round.
Wow you guys really have pitchforks at the ready...its like mob mentality in here.
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I was a Gold member previously but i cancelled my subscription. 20$ per event is not a reasonable price imo. Also I'm not sure it's a clever marketing strategy to not offer any LQ streams. Up to this date MLG focused on growing their viewership by gaining viewers who might not watch SC2 streams frequently and get them into it. But who will pay for something just to "check it out"? I'm pretty sure it will be back to the old modell soon.
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On February 15 2012 17:40 kurosawa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 17:32 Longshank wrote:
@kurosawa
People don't shout and scream about GOMs premium ticket because it's voluntary, there are cheaper and even free options. At MLG you are forced to buy, that's the point of this entire thread.
Also, for the customer the comparison between the two is very relevant since they're producing a similar product and are competing for the same audience. That one of the parties has a better business model and infrastructure and can therefor keep a lower price doesn't make the comparision less valid. Fair enough. Just wanted to shed light on production comparisons between GOM and MLG. But to be honest I dont think GOM will keep a free stream for much longer. It just doesnt make financial sense for them to. 2012 will be the year where we will be having many discussions related to eSport pricing. Things cant be given out for free indefinitely, especially when sponsorship dollars arent big when compared to more established sports. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
Where are you getting this idea? The people behind gsl have consistently emphasized that they want to maintain the gsl as a GLOBAL starcraft league and running a free low quality stream does little to hinder them.
You're talking as if the esports industry is a new thing that came out with sc2, but it's not. It's been running for over a decade with WCG, IEM, dreamhack and even mlg, and if anything sc2 has boosted their viewership.
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On February 15 2012 17:44 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 17:40 kurosawa wrote:On February 15 2012 17:32 Longshank wrote:
@kurosawa
People don't shout and scream about GOMs premium ticket because it's voluntary, there are cheaper and even free options. At MLG you are forced to buy, that's the point of this entire thread.
Also, for the customer the comparison between the two is very relevant since they're producing a similar product and are competing for the same audience. That one of the parties has a better business model and infrastructure and can therefor keep a lower price doesn't make the comparision less valid. Fair enough. Just wanted to shed light on production comparisons between GOM and MLG. But to be honest I dont think GOM will keep a free stream for much longer. It just doesnt make financial sense for them to. 2012 will be the year where we will be having many discussions related to eSport pricing. Things cant be given out for free indefinitely, especially when sponsorship dollars arent big when compared to more established sports. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Where are you getting this idea? The people behind gsl have consistently emphasized that they want to maintain the gsl as a GLOBAL starcraft league and running a free low quality stream does little to hinder them.
Haha ok. Let's check back in 6 months and see who's right 
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EPT
