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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
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Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 15 2012 20:34 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:11 eLeVaTioN wrote:
People need to look at this from not only their own perspective but from an E-Sports business perspective as well. E-Sports (competitive gaming), what ever you want to call it is a business, and many people live under the delusion that gaming leagues like MLG are already making millions of dollars every year, when in fact every year they are taking a loss while they continue to invest back into it. For E-Sports to survive, it needs to be monetized and for MLG to begin the change into a new era is actually a good decision, otherwise if these leagues continued to ignore this model and make everything free, eventually these leagues will go bankrupt and E-Sports will die.
Now for those concerned about the $20 cost for a weekend pass, yes it seems a bit high to most but from a business perspective it was rather a very smart decision on their part and it needed to be done. For this arena it's $20, but they knew that people would give negative feedback towards it and we can easily assume that the price will decrease afterwards for the remaining 3 arena events for this season and for any events in future years if they continue to use this tournament format. This was their plan to begin with, people were going to be mad about the higher price, and after this arena they will cut the price drastically, that way much more people will buy into these passes or they will buy into the new but unreleased combined packages that they announced, which will essentially be the same thing as GSL year long passes. And while they made this decision, other leagues such as IPL, NASL, IEM and some of the major tournaments like Dreamhack will look into what MLG is doing and eventually they as well will introduce similar models, charging money for their content. You can't sit here forever believing they will just hand out all of their content for free while not making any revenue after each year and taking a loss. Within the next couple of years, probably every league will monetize their content in some way, and at the same time that content will continue to grow in quality as well as the amount of it.
Another consideration people need to take into account is that the money they will make from this PPV and from future monetized content, that money will in part be put back into the model and the company to better provide for players and spectators alike. So as MLG begins to make a revenue, they will have more money to work with in providing even higher quality content and more ideas with streaming and such.
This first Arena PPV was just a test, and as I said earlier this was probably their plan from the start and the price will be cut afterwards while they introduce more content packages. And throughout the year as they continue to receive feedback and such from the community, the model will work better with providing the community with the best quality content MLG can offer for a reasonable price. The community, although most of it disagrees with this new model, should still support this change as it's for the better and growth of E-Sports. I'm not saying everyone should buy this pass, imo if you love SC2 and you feel it's worth your $20, buy it, if not, don't, but don't have the attitude of just doing away with MLG and just ranting and raging about these changes while not having any consideration from their perspective or the perspective of E-sports in general. Yes, Starcraft existed and was established before and without MLG, however for SC2 to grow and be able to provide the luxuries that players want as well as spectators and to have the opportunity to grow E-sports to a level that is close to the level of professional sports, MLG needs to exist with SC2 and in the end it needs to succeed.
Excuse but what? Why should i see it from a business perspective? It's not my job to make sure they make what they want. Does MLG helps me with my job? If not, why i should help them with theirs when i clearly think it is not worth the price. I never understood this mentality sometimes. "Buy it cause you don't think its worth it, but because you want to support it". Why exactly should i support something support it? On the opposite, if i support it they will use the same system more since they know people will "support" it making it even worse for me.
Agreed, it IS NOT the fans job to make sure the industry is making money.
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All this will do is halt all growth there no way to get new people into the scene if theres a paywall were fucked if this happens. MLG will make money from it for a short time before the scene dies and they move on to the next up and coming game. Dont think for a second you are helping esports by paying for this bullshit. Freemium is the only option if that isn't enough then die, many companies do fine with current model.
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On February 15 2012 20:26 esotericc wrote:
I refuse to pay for anything that doesn't offer a low quality free stream. Them simply only offering content to people who pay an absurd amount is not helping esports or growing SC2, it's growing MLG and hurting sc2 because newer people and people who just don't like it enough to pay won't.
And as I said, this was simply a test model for them, and it's extra content outside of what they have given in the past. People are always happy to receive extra content, but you can't expect them to give the extra stuff away for free all the time. Again people need to understand that within a couple of years most of the leagues will probably be doing this. That's not to say that in the future all arena events will require everyone to pay to view it, perhaps they may include a free live stream at future arena events, but right now they have to further introduce the idea of paying for content. The regular content like the big events for MLG and such will include a lower quality free live stream slong with the HD streams that cost money, however when these leagues give extra content, you can't expect all of that content to be free as well. And I also said that the price was a bit high but it was something they needed to do, because people are angry now but when they decrease the price to something more reasonable, people will end up forgetting about it, they will pay for the content and everyone will be happy that they can watch high quality content for a good price.
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Im not sure this level of discussion is even needed for this. Whether it was a good business decision or not will only be known by MLG after the event. Fans should just vote with their wallets. For me $20 for 20hours of SC2 content is not a price I am willing to pay, so clearly MLG will not be getting my money.
My gut tells them they would stand to make more money at the $10 mark. However I could be wrong I guess. Either way good luck to MLG I wish them every success.
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On February 15 2012 20:40 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:26 esotericc wrote:
I refuse to pay for anything that doesn't offer a low quality free stream. Them simply only offering content to people who pay an absurd amount is not helping esports or growing SC2, it's growing MLG and hurting sc2 because newer people and people who just don't like it enough to pay won't. And as I said, this was simply a test model for them, and it's extra content outside of what they have given in the past. People are always happy to receive extra content, but you can't expect them to give the extra stuff away for free all the time. Again people need to understand that within a couple of years most of the leagues will probably be doing this. That's not to say that in the future all arena events will require everyone to pay to view it, perhaps they may include a free live stream at future arena events, but right now they have to further introduce the idea of paying for content. The regular content like the big events for MLG and such will include a lower quality free live stream slong with the HD streams that cost money, however when these leagues give extra content, you can't expect all of that content to be free as well. And I also said that the price was a bit high but it was something they needed to do, because people are angry now but when they decrease the price to something more reasonable, people will end up forgetting about it, they will pay for the content and everyone will be happy that they can watch high quality content for a good price.
For a "non mlg employee" you sure speak with a lot of knowledge about the situation... Perhaps you can answer why they announced an event and waited an additional 3 weeks before announcing that it was going to be both ppv and separate from "regular content"?
I understand that the NA talent pool is pretty low and they needed a way to get EU and KR players to attend. Offering a qualifier tournament with free travel was a great business idea. Getting the fans to pay for it is also a good idea (to their balance sheet). However, purposely withholding information and being deceitful makes part of me hope they fail.. =/
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On February 15 2012 20:40 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:26 esotericc wrote:
I refuse to pay for anything that doesn't offer a low quality free stream. Them simply only offering content to people who pay an absurd amount is not helping esports or growing SC2, it's growing MLG and hurting sc2 because newer people and people who just don't like it enough to pay won't. And as I said, this was simply a test model for them, and it's extra content outside of what they have given in the past. People are always happy to receive extra content, but you can't expect them to give the extra stuff away for free all the time. Again people need to understand that within a couple of years most of the leagues will probably be doing this. That's not to say that in the future all arena events will require everyone to pay to view it, perhaps they may include a free live stream at future arena events, but right now they have to further introduce the idea of paying for content. The regular content like the big events for MLG and such will include a lower quality free live stream slong with the HD streams that cost money, however when these leagues give extra content, you can't expect all of that content to be free as well. And I also said that the price was a bit high but it was something they needed to do, because people are angry now but when they decrease the price to something more reasonable, people will end up forgetting about it, they will pay for the content and everyone will be happy that they can watch high quality content for a good price.
The funny part is I probably would have bought a ticket if there was a free stream.
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On February 15 2012 20:34 Assirra wrote:
Excuse but what?
Why should i see it from a business perspective? It's not my job to make sure they make what they want.
Does MLG helps me with my job? If not, why i should help them with theirs when i clearly think it is not worth the price.
I never understood this mentality sometimes. "Buy it not cause you think its worth it, but because you want to support it".
Why exactly should i support something i think is an obvious ripoff compared to the competition? On the opposite, if i support it they will use the same system more since they know people will "support" it making it even worse for me.
I never said everyone should buy it, I said if you feel it's worth your $20 and you enjoy the content THEN buy it, if not then don't buy it. I said people need to support the effort that is going on, not to support MLG's decision to charge $20 from the start. But E-sports isn't just some hobby, it's a business. And as a business, leagues and such have to do what's necessary to keep that business running. I never once said that $20 is reasonable, but I'm saying people can't continue to expect them to just hand out extra content or even their regular content for free. Now in regards with the competition, with the exception of the NA players, the rest of the competition looks rather good, especially with the Koreans competing. Again, I'm not saying it's worth $20, but it's definitely worth something.
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On February 15 2012 20:37 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:34 Assirra wrote:On February 15 2012 20:11 eLeVaTioN wrote:
People need to look at this from not only their own perspective but from an E-Sports business perspective as well. E-Sports (competitive gaming), what ever you want to call it is a business, and many people live under the delusion that gaming leagues like MLG are already making millions of dollars every year, when in fact every year they are taking a loss while they continue to invest back into it. For E-Sports to survive, it needs to be monetized and for MLG to begin the change into a new era is actually a good decision, otherwise if these leagues continued to ignore this model and make everything free, eventually these leagues will go bankrupt and E-Sports will die.
Now for those concerned about the $20 cost for a weekend pass, yes it seems a bit high to most but from a business perspective it was rather a very smart decision on their part and it needed to be done. For this arena it's $20, but they knew that people would give negative feedback towards it and we can easily assume that the price will decrease afterwards for the remaining 3 arena events for this season and for any events in future years if they continue to use this tournament format. This was their plan to begin with, people were going to be mad about the higher price, and after this arena they will cut the price drastically, that way much more people will buy into these passes or they will buy into the new but unreleased combined packages that they announced, which will essentially be the same thing as GSL year long passes. And while they made this decision, other leagues such as IPL, NASL, IEM and some of the major tournaments like Dreamhack will look into what MLG is doing and eventually they as well will introduce similar models, charging money for their content. You can't sit here forever believing they will just hand out all of their content for free while not making any revenue after each year and taking a loss. Within the next couple of years, probably every league will monetize their content in some way, and at the same time that content will continue to grow in quality as well as the amount of it.
Another consideration people need to take into account is that the money they will make from this PPV and from future monetized content, that money will in part be put back into the model and the company to better provide for players and spectators alike. So as MLG begins to make a revenue, they will have more money to work with in providing even higher quality content and more ideas with streaming and such.
This first Arena PPV was just a test, and as I said earlier this was probably their plan from the start and the price will be cut afterwards while they introduce more content packages. And throughout the year as they continue to receive feedback and such from the community, the model will work better with providing the community with the best quality content MLG can offer for a reasonable price. The community, although most of it disagrees with this new model, should still support this change as it's for the better and growth of E-Sports. I'm not saying everyone should buy this pass, imo if you love SC2 and you feel it's worth your $20, buy it, if not, don't, but don't have the attitude of just doing away with MLG and just ranting and raging about these changes while not having any consideration from their perspective or the perspective of E-sports in general. Yes, Starcraft existed and was established before and without MLG, however for SC2 to grow and be able to provide the luxuries that players want as well as spectators and to have the opportunity to grow E-sports to a level that is close to the level of professional sports, MLG needs to exist with SC2 and in the end it needs to succeed.
Excuse but what? Why should i see it from a business perspective? It's not my job to make sure they make what they want. Does MLG helps me with my job? If not, why i should help them with theirs when i clearly think it is not worth the price. I never understood this mentality sometimes. "Buy it cause you don't think its worth it, but because you want to support it". Why exactly should i support something support it? On the opposite, if i support it they will use the same system more since they know people will "support" it making it even worse for me. Agreed, it IS NOT the fans job to make sure the industry is making money.
Exactly. It's their job to produce a product with a price that people will pay to ensure that they will make money. All this "it's your fault if esports dies" is making me dizzy. If a company produces a product that no one buys, who's to blame? They should have done more research and that's that.
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Americans have private corps. running the various mediums that provide media content. Most European countries have it governed by the state, this is why PPV is something absent in most European countries when it comes to TV Channels and entertaining media, such as Sports events etc.
That being said; Justifying a PPV system to cover expenses for an event such as MLG is understandable, HOWEVER if they want to promote Esports in general, not having a free option is doing the exact opposite, and that is not debatable at all.
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On February 15 2012 20:40 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:26 esotericc wrote:
I refuse to pay for anything that doesn't offer a low quality free stream. Them simply only offering content to people who pay an absurd amount is not helping esports or growing SC2, it's growing MLG and hurting sc2 because newer people and people who just don't like it enough to pay won't. And as I said, this was simply a test model for them, and it's extra content outside of what they have given in the past. People are always happy to receive extra content, but you can't expect them to give the extra stuff away for free all the time. Again people need to understand that within a couple of years most of the leagues will probably be doing this. That's not to say that in the future all arena events will require everyone to pay to view it, perhaps they may include a free live stream at future arena events, but right now they have to further introduce the idea of paying for content. The regular content like the big events for MLG and such will include a lower quality free live stream slong with the HD streams that cost money, however when these leagues give extra content, you can't expect all of that content to be free as well. And I also said that the price was a bit high but it was something they needed to do, because people are angry now but when they decrease the price to something more reasonable, people will end up forgetting about it, they will pay for the content and everyone will be happy that they can watch high quality content for a good price.
Technically the extra content is free in this case. Player interviews, behind the scenes action will be shown on a free stream.
The main dish - the games are only for paid viewers. A bit of role reversal from the usual practice.
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On February 15 2012 20:53 Helvius wrote:
Americans have private corps. running the various mediums that provide media content. Most European countries have it governed by the state, this is why PPV is something absent in most European countries when it comes to TV Channels and entertaining media, such as Sports events etc.
That being said; Justifying a PPV system to cover expenses for an event such as MLG is understandable, HOWEVER if they want to promote Esports in general, not having a free option is doing the exact opposite, and that is not debatable at all.
Uhm.. At least in germany the private TV-Stations (100% add funded for the most part) are running the BIG sports.. The state run media is left with "the shitty" ones (biatholn, lol?) that don't that many people wan't to watch  .
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I can get 20 TV channels for a month, that bring me sports, movies, documents you name it for 20e. Thats in Finland atleast.
$20, games being played at night (sunday finals?), Assembly clashing with it...
Say goodbye to European consumers.
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On February 15 2012 20:50 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:34 Assirra wrote:
Excuse but what?
Why should i see it from a business perspective? It's not my job to make sure they make what they want.
Does MLG helps me with my job? If not, why i should help them with theirs when i clearly think it is not worth the price.
I never understood this mentality sometimes. "Buy it not cause you think its worth it, but because you want to support it".
Why exactly should i support something i think is an obvious ripoff compared to the competition? On the opposite, if i support it they will use the same system more since they know people will "support" it making it even worse for me. I never said everyone should buy it, I said if you feel it's worth your $20 and you enjoy the content THEN buy it, if not then don't buy it. I said people need to support the effort that is going on, not to support MLG's decision to charge $20 from the start. But E-sports isn't just some hobby, it's a business. And as a business, leagues and such have to do what's necessary to keep that business running. I never once said that $20 is reasonable, but I'm saying people can't continue to expect them to just hand out extra content or even their regular content for free. Now in regards with the competition, with the exception of the NA players, the rest of the competition looks rather good, especially with the Koreans competing. Again, I'm not saying it's worth $20, but it's definitely worth something.
Wait, your order is wrong here. That is another problem with this thing. You cannot first see if you enjoy and THEN buy it since there is NO FREE STREAM. If i could at the very least test it out it would be 1 thing but there is simply no way to do so.
Stop talking with the business stuff. Again, it is not my job to make sure this they get their money, that is theirs.
I don't expect content for free, i however expect it for a reasonable price compared to the competition. Except the first GSL i bought all of them and currently riding on a gsl premium ticket, clearly i want stuff for free right. next home story cup i will buy it as well since now i know it will be worth it. I always do a test run since why maybe the money aint so bad, its still my hard earned cash.
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On February 15 2012 20:58 stfouri wrote:
Say goodbye to European consumers.
This
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On February 15 2012 20:48 DusTerr wrote:
For a "non mlg employee" you sure speak with a lot of knowledge about the situation... Perhaps you can answer why they announced an event and waited an additional 3 weeks before announcing that it was going to be both ppv and separate from "regular content"?
I understand that the NA talent pool is pretty low and they needed a way to get EU and KR players to attend. Offering a qualifier tournament with free travel was a great business idea. Getting the fans to pay for it is also a good idea (to their balance sheet). However, purposely withholding information and being deceitful makes part of me hope they fail.. =/
It's not hard to understand the "situation" so to speak. MLG proposed a $20 starting price for this arena, and it can be assumed logically that this was MLG's plan all along. Why they announced the Arena event and then PPV later was probably due to them still working on and finalizing the model they want to run with although we don't know that for sure. It was also posted on MLG's site that the arena tournaments, although were apart of the overall tournament structure was still considered to be extra content outside of what they typically gave in previous years. Now I've have competed in MLG tournaments for a number of years, and for everyone it sucks when you wait for announcements and I can relate to that problem, but they can't announce anything that hasn't been worked out and finalized. The idea of paying for content is something that many people saw coming or should have seen coming. Again, they aren't making money, so if you expect them to continue to run events and produce the content that they do, you have to expect them to charge for their content so they can continue to fill everyone's wants and needs as players and spectators. Getting the fans to pay is the only option any league will have eventually.
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On February 15 2012 20:59 Assirra wrote:
Wait, your order is wrong here. That is another problem with this thing. You cannot first see if you enjoy and THEN buy it since there is NO FREE STREAM. If i could at the very least test it out it would be 1 thing but there is simply no way to do so.
Stop talking with the business stuff. Again, it is not my job to make sure this they get their money, that is theirs.
I don't expect content for free, i however expect it for a reasonable price compared to the competition. Except the first GSL i bought all of them and currently riding on a gsl premium ticket, clearly i want stuff for free right. next home story cup i will buy it as well since now i know it will be worth it. I always do a test run since why maybe the money aint so bad, its still my hard earned cash.
You can watch VoD's from MLG tournament last season to see the quality of content that MLG gives. It's not going to be any different really, only difference is instead of being at big events, they're going to be at MLG studios in NYC. There will be 4 live streams of game play and you can watch them simultaneously which is the same as MLG did last season and they will include the same casters with the exception being Day9 and they brought in the one caster from IEM this past week. So in a way you can see how the content will be and look like now, and you know that with the exception of the NA players, the rest of the competition looks to be really good with many of the top Koreans being there.
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I will probably give it a try, it's not cheap at all, but mlg always delivered great experience for me. I wish it was 10$, though.
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On February 15 2012 21:09 eLeVaTioN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 20:59 Assirra wrote:
Wait, your order is wrong here. That is another problem with this thing. You cannot first see if you enjoy and THEN buy it since there is NO FREE STREAM. If i could at the very least test it out it would be 1 thing but there is simply no way to do so.
Stop talking with the business stuff. Again, it is not my job to make sure this they get their money, that is theirs.
I don't expect content for free, i however expect it for a reasonable price compared to the competition. Except the first GSL i bought all of them and currently riding on a gsl premium ticket, clearly i want stuff for free right. next home story cup i will buy it as well since now i know it will be worth it. I always do a test run since why maybe the money aint so bad, its still my hard earned cash. You can watch VoD's from MLG tournament last season to see the quality of content that MLG gives. It's not going to be any different really, only difference is instead of being at big events, they're going to be at MLG studios in NYC. There will be 4 live streams of game play and you can watch them simultaneously which is the same as MLG did last season and they will include the same casters with the exception being Day9 and they brought in the one caster from IEM this past week. So in a way you can see how the content will be and look like now, and you know that with the exception of the NA players, the rest of the competition looks to be really good with many of the top Koreans being there.
You do realize that there's been MLG events with horrible streams. Saying people should watch old VoD's don't really help if there's connectivity issues. Paying $20 and having lag and disconnects will make people furious. I've sticked to the free stream before due to MLG having issues with streams dying and disconnecting.
Also it's kinda suspicious that you know all this, are on a sub 10 post account created today, and defend MLG time and again in this thread. The last part in your post sounds like a sales pitch btw.
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What some of you fail to realize is that the proceeds of these arena events could potentially finance their main, free events. Moreover, they do offer a free alternative, just a week late, which isn't bad given that they are in the form of VODs rather than a low quality stream.
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I can understand they want us to pay, but they really should make a LQ stream aswell so we can choose to watch lousy and free or good and for some dollars.
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EPT
