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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 15 2012 05:13 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
So one $ per hour of commented live stream per viewer .. man if they need that much to break even, they clearly do not have a sustainable business model ..
They need to cut down their production cost, i can't imagine people are willing to pay for the high production quality (if it is that good..).
To put things in perspective: I'd pay like 10 Euro per year. At least MLG is only one of many tourneys.
Agreed, if this is their breakeven MLG won't last at all. It's just a hard market to capitalize on and they need to drastically reduce costs to keep it around.
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I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance:
@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
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For me, $20 dollars is too much for a weekend event. I did not mind paying $5 for the HSC 4 weekend event, I don't mind paying $10 for MLG...but $20 is a bit of a mental barrier...
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On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please.
Balance sheets will not provide the necessary information. What you are looking for is what is most commonly referred to as the income statement. 
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I assume Assembly will be live during peak euro times? MLG of course peak US times. Why not watch both?
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What exactly did gold buy you? Are they now not honoring gold memberships previously bought?
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On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: Show nested quote +@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Show nested quote +Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
No. Sundance is saying, you get way to much for your 30 bucks yearly. As i understand it.
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On February 15 2012 05:28 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Balance sheets will not provide the necessary information. What you are looking for is what is most commonly referred to as the income statement.
you can determine the current ratio from the balance sheet, or even the retained earning. Those are decent indicators
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On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: Show nested quote +@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Show nested quote +Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
Wait.
Is he actively admitting that MLG gold was orginally for all content but then, due to some "bad maths", they've retroactively decided it no longer applies?
Whats there refund policy on gold membership?
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On February 15 2012 05:31 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: @fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh? Wait. Is he actively admitting that MLG gold was orginally for all content but then, due to some "bad maths", they've retroactively decided it no longer applies. Whats there refund policy?
Pretty sure they aren't refunding and are just giving people the finger. Reddit is talking about contacting credit card companies to initiate chargebacks.
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Makes sense, go out and watch this at a pub instead of incurring the cost yourself 
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On February 15 2012 05:04 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:19 legaton wrote:
Well, i guess we are just hearing the bubble pop
Today's business model is just not sustainable. Costs in the e-sports industry and specially in SC2 are extremely high. To run a LAN, you must face a huge investment for the location of the hall (several thousands dollars, if not more, for an MLG sized event). But SC2 LAN are specially expensive because you truly have a globalized game, so someone (either the teams or the event organizers) has to pay a small fortune on plane tickets. You also need a lot of fairly new computers as you could run into graphic lag if you use PC with bad graphic cards, and you need a top of the notch internet connection as you depend on it to play the game.
On the other hand, revenues are scarce. For a long time, the only sources of revenue were the entry fees of viewers (non existent on a closed door event as this one) and the ad revenue. Problem is the ad revenue is way smaller most people believe it is. Most events end up with red numbers, and huge event organizers are losing money. MLG only survives thanks to the gullibility of some venture capitalists that poured millions on a "booming" industry, but you can't ride for free forever. It is fair for them to try to cut their losses.
Sadly, MLG is fucked over. The ppp system works for sports events because they have a total monopoly on some sports. In boxing or in the UFC, you either pay or you don't see anything. In Starcraft, a 1000 euros monthly cup as the MSI/Millenium tournament has a roster as good as MLG. This business model is bound to fail too.
Bye bye SC2, it was nice knowing you. people ought to not use the word bubble when they have no idea what they're talking about. Also you provide alot of speculation with no citation whatsoever. MLG has been running for 10+ years, I doubt their previous ad-based model was constantly putting them in the red. Companies don't operate, even expand, on the basis of being red for so many years. So much for your speculations This isn't a case of "cutting your loses", its about attempting to use a new business model to achieve more profit. Simple as that. Nobody is dumb enough to "cut your loses" by paying tens of thousands of dollars ahead of time to fly everyone around the globe to NY, in addition to hire a huge list of expensive casters. Its an experimentation at the new model
I'm going to show you something, it is called a SEC form:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1371551/000137155111000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
You will see it was filled by MLG and they are selling debt + options on their business. They sold 3,1 millions. They have done this several times on the last years: You just need to search the SEC archives.
http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Major League Gaming Inc.&match=&CIK=&filenum=&State=&Country=&SIC=&owner=exclude&Find=Find Companies&action=getcompany
The MLG costs a lot of money. It's a super expensive operation and they've been fairly successful at securing venture capital, but it seems they are burning money to exist.
Everybody here is so delusional about the financial state of the "e-sports" scene.
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On February 15 2012 05:22 zergules wrote:
If you want to grow eSports, offering a free low quality option, is a good way to get new people watching. I can't convince my non-SC2 watching friends to shell out $20 for a weekend. If it's free I can tell them to put it on for a couple hours to see what they think. I guess I'm going to spread the word about Assembly instead.
Why not invite friends over and watch it together? Drink some beers, etc, etc just like any other sporting event.
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This must be a joke... I watch Dreamhack with the best casters in the world with different streams with best quality 1080p and having a blast, all for free. Then MLG wants $20 for a weekend* "20 hour gameplay" tournament? That's 1 dollar per hour. Nice going there.
I would love to watch, but not for all my money I got. Thank god we have other tournaments (homestory cup for example) that have even better production quality and that is free.
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Calgary25996 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion.  A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long.
Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy.
It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable.
MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit.
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On February 15 2012 05:33 legaton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:04 iky43210 wrote:On February 15 2012 04:19 legaton wrote:
Well, i guess we are just hearing the bubble pop
Today's business model is just not sustainable. Costs in the e-sports industry and specially in SC2 are extremely high. To run a LAN, you must face a huge investment for the location of the hall (several thousands dollars, if not more, for an MLG sized event). But SC2 LAN are specially expensive because you truly have a globalized game, so someone (either the teams or the event organizers) has to pay a small fortune on plane tickets. You also need a lot of fairly new computers as you could run into graphic lag if you use PC with bad graphic cards, and you need a top of the notch internet connection as you depend on it to play the game.
On the other hand, revenues are scarce. For a long time, the only sources of revenue were the entry fees of viewers (non existent on a closed door event as this one) and the ad revenue. Problem is the ad revenue is way smaller most people believe it is. Most events end up with red numbers, and huge event organizers are losing money. MLG only survives thanks to the gullibility of some venture capitalists that poured millions on a "booming" industry, but you can't ride for free forever. It is fair for them to try to cut their losses.
Sadly, MLG is fucked over. The ppp system works for sports events because they have a total monopoly on some sports. In boxing or in the UFC, you either pay or you don't see anything. In Starcraft, a 1000 euros monthly cup as the MSI/Millenium tournament has a roster as good as MLG. This business model is bound to fail too.
Bye bye SC2, it was nice knowing you. people ought to not use the word bubble when they have no idea what they're talking about. Also you provide alot of speculation with no citation whatsoever. MLG has been running for 10+ years, I doubt their previous ad-based model was constantly putting them in the red. Companies don't operate, even expand, on the basis of being red for so many years. So much for your speculations This isn't a case of "cutting your loses", its about attempting to use a new business model to achieve more profit. Simple as that. Nobody is dumb enough to "cut your loses" by paying tens of thousands of dollars ahead of time to fly everyone around the globe to NY, in addition to hire a huge list of expensive casters. Its an experimentation at the new model I'm going to show you something, it is called a SEC form: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1371551/000137155111000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xmlYou will see it was filled by MLG and they are selling debt + options on their business. They sold 3,1 millions. They have done this several times on the last years: You just need to search the SEC archives. http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Major League Gaming Inc.&match=&CIK=&filenum=&State=&Country=&SIC=&owner=exclude&Find=Find Companies&action=getcompanyThe MLG costs a lot of money. It's a super expensive operation and they've been fairly successful at securing venture capital, but it seems they are burning money to exist. Everybody here is so delusional about the financial state of the "e-sports" scene.
Not all of us. The e-sports audience is one of the most difficult audiences to monetize. It's full of people who are used to pirating / not paying for things and/or don't have credit cards / don't have much money. Really tough.
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On February 15 2012 05:30 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: @fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh? No. Sundance is saying, you get way to much for your 30 bucks yearly. As i understand it.
See, I took "built in too much" to mean that MLG put in to much of a buffer for themselves in terms of costs. I could be wrong but that's what it sounds like to me. Either way this is not the type of professional response like I would expect, the guy came up with a very valid question that I think deserves a straight answer.
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On February 15 2012 05:29 serum321 wrote:
I assume Assembly will be live during peak euro times? MLG of course peak US times. Why not watch both?
Because one costs 20$ and they probably will overlap (late Assembly/early MLG) and from euorpe it's not really "easy" to catch the MLG finals anyway (which tend to be after 0.00 on Monday.
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On February 15 2012 02:56 Klipsys wrote:
So many broke nerds it’s disgusting. Some of you should get jobs and contribute instead of being spoiled consumers. Honestly, it's like a bunch of poor children crying about wanting free shit. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, and if you're over 18, you should be EMBARRESED. These people put on a show for us to enjoy, and you want them to constantly do it for FREE? I don't think anyone here really understands how business work....
Sorry, your post was the first I saw after OP since I didn't fancy dredging through this whole thread. Businesses run for as long as people think they're worth investment. If the majority of people aren't willing to pay for the product, that isn't ingratitude or greed, that's just a simple business decision. If what this guy was saying is that they can't maintain the product we all love on advertising/sponsorship alone then I could at least sympathise with your feelings but I don't see that from this post.
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As far as this goes, I think it's a shame that with ppv only tourneys you will exclude everyone below 16 who can't pay the money online. I don't think any part of the problem last year was that there weren't enough games, if anything I think MLG should be condensed into fewer events. In an already crowded calendar I'm not going to pay to see something unless it's of significantly higher quality than similar offerings and what you're essentially competing with is gomtv.
Whenever I see a phrase like 'new and enhanced viewing experience' I wonder what you're trying to sell me. When I read on and all I see is 'more, more, more' I start thinking about that one time I switched to a beta stream at an earlier mlg only to find the commentator whining about having a match taken away from him - if you can chuck that nonsense and get a semi-eloquent pro to do the casting (homestory cup had such great commentary) you might have an offer worth considering.
Paying for more when more is worse isn't an attractive offer. What we were seeing on the beta streams/community caster streams before was of the same quality as the hundred youtubers who've watched day9, psystarcraft and husky, made it to plat and decided that puts them in a great position to repeat to me the events, as they occur, of the video we are both watching.
'We need to establish that there is an engaged audience for eSports and demonstrate why everyone (spectators, gamers, marketers and companies) should support the players, the community, and the business of competitive gaming.' - Okay, I'll be with those guys: waiting to see if what you're offering is worth a small part of my disposable income because gomtv isn't your only competition, you're also competing with the DVDs I could be watching, or TV shows, or Anime, or the books I could be reading or the pretty girls I could go to a club to look at.
Give me a keyboard cam; a cpm meter; translators, who don't look like they're making it up as they go along, carrying out interesting interviews; clips of dramatic incidents from past matches the pro's have played with totalbiscuit or someone else who can sell a bit of drama to me casting over the top; something like a brief mention of the players' last few notable meetings; less cheer for the matchup, cheer for the map, cheer for this guy, cheer for that guy (ONCE at the start of the match is enough) and less of two commentators awkwardly trying to fill time while something or other is happening and you'd have a product that would have people forgetting all about that incomprehensibly priced korean organisation.
Anyway I really like mlg because over those three days with the way the open bracket works you get wonderful stories and some fantastic games, but I'm not willing, based on what I see here, to shell out that 15 quid for a format that sounds like it will be totally reliant on the quality of the games - games that, let's be honest will be available 2 days later on some file sharing site for free and a week later officially. Starcraft 2 has a great, supportive community but you can't expect them to increase their spending unless the quality of what they receive correspondingly rises (quality, not quantity because I have 1000+ replays of terrible games saved on my pc already).
I hope you deliver because I'm still waiting for that highly polished product to come along and until it does I'm not going to be able to watch as much as I'd like because at the moment I get tired - tired of all the breaks and the rough edges and the pidgin English interviews (is a subtitler really so expensive?) and when I get tired I sleep and when I'm asleep I'm not watching Starcraft 2.
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Did I missred or they are expecting to sell 5k tickets to cover 100k usd ?
Did someone ever release information of how many people buy gsl ?
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EPT
