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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
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Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 15 2012 05:31 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: @fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh? Wait. Is he actively admitting that MLG gold was orginally for all content but then, due to some "bad maths", they've retroactively decided it no longer applies? Whats there refund policy on gold membership?
almost seems that way.
either way even if he isn't saying that, it's extremely unprofessional and a joke that the CEO is trying to pass the blame on to 'some guy with bad math.' As the CEO he is responsible for MAJOR company decisions like gee i don't know.. maybe subscription packages? He seemed to love swooping in and taking the heat for having a shit stream and bad CS during the MLG Dallas event (i think it was dallas) but arguably the biggest flop yet, the shafting of the MLG Gold Members is tossed aside as 'some guy with bad math.'
As a gold member from the start and valiant MLG supporter this is getting worse and worse and makes it a lot harder to support as time goes on.
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On February 15 2012 05:34 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:33 legaton wrote:On February 15 2012 05:04 iky43210 wrote:On February 15 2012 04:19 legaton wrote:
Well, i guess we are just hearing the bubble pop
Today's business model is just not sustainable. Costs in the e-sports industry and specially in SC2 are extremely high. To run a LAN, you must face a huge investment for the location of the hall (several thousands dollars, if not more, for an MLG sized event). But SC2 LAN are specially expensive because you truly have a globalized game, so someone (either the teams or the event organizers) has to pay a small fortune on plane tickets. You also need a lot of fairly new computers as you could run into graphic lag if you use PC with bad graphic cards, and you need a top of the notch internet connection as you depend on it to play the game.
On the other hand, revenues are scarce. For a long time, the only sources of revenue were the entry fees of viewers (non existent on a closed door event as this one) and the ad revenue. Problem is the ad revenue is way smaller most people believe it is. Most events end up with red numbers, and huge event organizers are losing money. MLG only survives thanks to the gullibility of some venture capitalists that poured millions on a "booming" industry, but you can't ride for free forever. It is fair for them to try to cut their losses.
Sadly, MLG is fucked over. The ppp system works for sports events because they have a total monopoly on some sports. In boxing or in the UFC, you either pay or you don't see anything. In Starcraft, a 1000 euros monthly cup as the MSI/Millenium tournament has a roster as good as MLG. This business model is bound to fail too.
Bye bye SC2, it was nice knowing you. people ought to not use the word bubble when they have no idea what they're talking about. Also you provide alot of speculation with no citation whatsoever. MLG has been running for 10+ years, I doubt their previous ad-based model was constantly putting them in the red. Companies don't operate, even expand, on the basis of being red for so many years. So much for your speculations This isn't a case of "cutting your loses", its about attempting to use a new business model to achieve more profit. Simple as that. Nobody is dumb enough to "cut your loses" by paying tens of thousands of dollars ahead of time to fly everyone around the globe to NY, in addition to hire a huge list of expensive casters. Its an experimentation at the new model I'm going to show you something, it is called a SEC form: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1371551/000137155111000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xmlYou will see it was filled by MLG and they are selling debt + options on their business. They sold 3,1 millions. They have done this several times on the last years: You just need to search the SEC archives. http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Major League Gaming Inc.&match=&CIK=&filenum=&State=&Country=&SIC=&owner=exclude&Find=Find Companies&action=getcompanyThe MLG costs a lot of money. It's a super expensive operation and they've been fairly successful at securing venture capital, but it seems they are burning money to exist. Everybody here is so delusional about the financial state of the "e-sports" scene. Not all of us. The e-sports audience is one of the most difficult audiences to monetize. It's full of people who are used to pirating / not paying for things and/or don't have credit cards / don't have much money. Really tough.
It's not even so much that. It's that when you charge above and beyond what others are charging (or not charging) for similar events you're not going to get a lot of bites.
I don't doubt there's some people that don't get it, but I'd say the majority probably realize this is an expensive business to run. That said, you can't just start gouging people because you need money and expect them to pay up.
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wooohooo!!! Assembly, first I had trouble picking but now? Easy pick here. The quality of events is not good enough for me to pay 20 dollars for 2 days worth of content... That is equvialent to 3 months Netflix, 3 months Gold membership (xbox live) so why would I spend that on 2 days?
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On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: Show nested quote +@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Show nested quote +Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
I guess that we have to blame John Nelson?
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I pondered a number of lengthy posts explaining why i wont pay for a ppv tourny but in the end, i'll simply treat this as i would an out of market hockey game and simply watch the other free tournament or maybe even watch a couple hockey games. best of luck MLG. Every pro has cheesed at least once in their career, why not you too.
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On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: Show nested quote +@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Show nested quote +Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
LOLOL yea wow, that seems VERY unprofessional if it is true; so they're implying because they messed up on the Gold membership, they're gona gimp all of the members and make a random event that excludes all the members and that will cost almost as much as the membership itself, what a joke.
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On February 15 2012 05:30 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 drgoats wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Balance sheets will not provide the necessary information. What you are looking for is what is most commonly referred to as the income statement.  you can determine the current ratio from the balance sheet, or even the retained earning. Those are decent indicators
Good point, however it takes someone with a little more understanding on how to use the balance sheet to get use out of it in determining the profitability of a company. I/S's are nice and simple. I probably should have said financial statements instead. And I'm derailing...
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On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion.  A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit.
MLG trimmed all their fat, so thats why they hold their tournament in NYC?
Come on. If you screw up your business (which is completely understandable, could happen to everybody), you do smaller things (in german its called "bake smaller buns"). Try to get profitable again. A car company which went nearly bankrupt focuses on small cars to reach a big audience.
How do you think can they rescue their business with a model that actually is incredibly expensive compared to what you get for the same kind of money in other leagues, with problems like, i dont know, maybe the fact that there is a difference for me for example to watch a free stream of MLG (because its like 3 in the morning here then), or have to pay 20 bucks to watch it at 3 in the morning? I wouldnt mind paying like 5 bucks, but 20? Thats not "rescuing", thats.. Well i dont know what it is, but it certainly wont work in a business which is more international than any other business.
Make a smaller tournament without crowd. Hell, maybe just try to challenge HSC on their turf. Adapt ideas from them. Then start over again. Its a big image-loss, i agree, but screwing your customers over with this (gold membership, the tweets etc) hurts the company way more than just a new start.
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On February 15 2012 05:41 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: @fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh? LOLOL yea wow, that seems VERY unprofessional if it is true; so they're implying because they messed up on the Gold membership, they're gona gimp all of the members and make a random event that excludes all the members and that will cost almost as much as the membership itself, what a joke.
I don't know what you mean by "if it is true", I got that straight from Sundance's twitter myself if that's what you're concerned about.
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On February 15 2012 05:43 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion. A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit. MLG trimmed all their fat, so thats why they hold their tournament in NYC?
Because their offices and studio where this tournament will be taking place are there.
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On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion. A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit.
Last I checked this winter arena idea was a new production and their attempting to establish their accommodations for the players as a justification for their ppv tournament, when the dynamic of tournament/players has always been that the tournament provides the venue/spectators/prizes while the teams provide players with accommodations.
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Paying 20$ is just way over the maximum any sane viewer shouldn't pay for a one weekend event that you are not attending at the location. Even in comparison to Pay TV this is expensive. And compared to Pay-TV this is not guaranteed to deliver the service without any cuts.
Say no to MLG 20$ !
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James Harding @follow2GD
DreamHack are a sustainable business without charging pay per view. I think MLG might be trying to do something ahead of its time
2GD was one of the guys running DreamHack. So I'm not buying this shit that all major events are losing money. I can live without MLG. DreamHack twice a year+ IEM+ Assembly twice a year and GSL is more than enough for me.
May be the problem is that NA has 5 pro players.
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On February 15 2012 05:33 serum321 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:22 zergules wrote:
If you want to grow eSports, offering a free low quality option, is a good way to get new people watching. I can't convince my non-SC2 watching friends to shell out $20 for a weekend. If it's free I can tell them to put it on for a couple hours to see what they think. I guess I'm going to spread the word about Assembly instead. Why not invite friends over and watch it together? Drink some beers, etc, etc just like any other sporting event.
That only works for some of the friends that live near me. Some are too far away.
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On February 15 2012 05:28 TheToast wrote:I didn't see this posted yet, it's an interesting twitter conversation from Sundance: Show nested quote +@fspikec
@MLGSundance 1 YEAR of gold is $30. 1 Weekend event is $20. How does that make sense at all?
Show nested quote +Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it.
Somehow this doesn't have the level of professionalism that I would expect from an organization like MLG. First I'm having trouble with the idea that MLG premium rates were determined by just one guy. Basically Sundance is saying the price point is $20 because some guy fucked up.... huh?
Nooo. He is saying that gold is only $30 because some guy fucked up.
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On February 15 2012 05:47 Vadrigar wrote:Show nested quote +James Harding @follow2GD
DreamHack are a sustainable business without charging pay per view. I think MLG might be trying to do something ahead of its time 2GD was one of the guys running DreamHack. So I'm not buying this shit that all major events are losing money. I can live without MLG. DreamHack twice a year+ IEM+ Assembly twice a year and GSL is more than enough for me. May be the problem is that NA has 5 pro players.
Dreamhack is not just a tournament. It is a computer expo like E3 with a lan event built onto it.
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On February 15 2012 05:44 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion. A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit. MLG trimmed all their fat, so thats why they hold their tournament in NYC? Because their offices and studio where this tournament will be taking place are there?
So having a studio in one of the most expensive cities in the world is smart then, yes? "Cant be trimmed down, we have to have a more expensive tournament, because we have our studio in the most expensive town in the western hemisphere - and thats smart.".
Sorry. I dont want to sound insulting, but that actually is completely no argument, at all. Even more so, it feels a bit stupid to me, and "two-faced" (dont know the right word in english).
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On February 15 2012 05:47 Vadrigar wrote:Show nested quote +James Harding @follow2GD
DreamHack are a sustainable business without charging pay per view. I think MLG might be trying to do something ahead of its time 2GD was one of the guys running DreamHack. So I'm not buying this shit that all major events are losing money. I can live without MLG. DreamHack twice a year+ IEM+ Assembly twice a year and GSL is more than enough for me. May be the problem is that NA has 5 pro players.
2GD hosted some DH events, but as far as I know he does not organize stuff. But he lives in sweden and one could think that he has good contacts and gets his facts straight before hitting the tweet button.
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On February 15 2012 05:49 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:44 Kralic wrote:On February 15 2012 05:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion. A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit. MLG trimmed all their fat, so thats why they hold their tournament in NYC? Because their offices and studio where this tournament will be taking place are there? So having a studio in one of the most expensive cities in the world is smart then, yes? "Cant be trimmed down, we have to have a more expensive tournament, because we have our studio in the most expensive town in the western hemisphere - and thats smart.". Sorry. I dont want to sound insulting, but that actually is completely no argument, at all. Even more so, it feels a bit stupid to me, and "two-faced" (dont know the right word in english).
People have business offices in New York because it is strategically a smart business decision to do so.
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On February 15 2012 05:49 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:44 Kralic wrote:On February 15 2012 05:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:34 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:25 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:22 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 Chicane wrote:On February 15 2012 05:02 T.O.P. wrote:On February 15 2012 03:50 Kuni wrote:
Are none of the other good tournaments (Dreamhack, IPL etc) making any money? Because if it is only MLG, then there is something wrong that won't be fixed by PPV.
Viewers will drop significantly with PPV. I wonder if less exposure is a good thing. Doubt it. All the big tournaments lose money. Actually all the big tournaments profit. Link to their balance sheets please. Isnt the fact that theyre still around "evidence" enough? Do you really think a tournament will survive if they lose money for 10 years straight? Do you actually think an organisation would even consider to rescue a "business" which paints red numbers for 10 years? Well. I actually do believe that they are in the blacks, without seeing their balance sheets. Again, the fact that theyre still here is proof enough. Edit: although it was a joke, i stick to my opinion. A tournament that would make consistenly a - at the end of the year wouldnt be around for so long. Look at history. The majority of major ESPORTS companies have been farces based on non-payment and then a quick declaration of bankruptcy. It's easy to get some initial investments, take a loss, and then hope that the numbers stack up to make it sustainable. MLG trimmed all their fat, cut all their extra production, fired all the writers, and started charging PPV on the stream. If that doesn't ring bells in your ears then I don't know what will. I don't think this is a case of a greed, I think it's a desire to actually tun a profit. MLG trimmed all their fat, so thats why they hold their tournament in NYC? Because their offices and studio where this tournament will be taking place are there? So having a studio in one of the most expensive cities in the world is smart then, yes? "Cant be trimmed down, we have to have a more expensive tournament, because we have our studio in the most expensive town in the western hemisphere - and thats smart.". Sorry. I dont want to sound insulting, but that actually is completely no argument, at all. Even more so, it feels a bit stupid to me, and "two-faced" (dont know the right word in english).
So moving to another location to set up a new studio makes sense? Hindsight is 20/20 I am sure when MLG started as a company in the early 2000's they did not forsee themselves hosting a tournament like this.
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EPT
