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On February 14 2012 00:27 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:24 liberal wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 Silentenigma wrote:
Because it is not fun to play against abusers BM ers alliners.
Last time I played 99 percent of my games were 1 or 2 base allins(was mid masters).It is almost impossible to play a standard game...I would much rather to play custom games against similar skilled people. Pretty much this ^ I got so tired of pointless games that weren't even fun, and I quit for a couple weeks. I came back yesterday to ladder, got proxy 2gate rushed, and quit again  It's just so much more fun to play against people you know with obs when you know it will be a real game and not some stupid gimmick that's just gonna stress you out. I always thought that rising higher in master league would mean facing fewer and fewer cheeses and all ins and gimmicky builds or strats, but it feels more gimmicky the higher I go. I mean I've seen people fucking SPAM hellions just so they can suicide them and run around and kill 30 workers. The games a joke to me. Why dont you see these gimmicks in high level (pro) games? because the pros can do a combination of small things to counter them / defend themselves. I cant, so I sometimes lose quickly, but if there was no threat of agressive play then what would stop me from double expanding before making any units? Keeping people honest (threat of aggression to punish greed) is an essential part of the game.
I do see these gimmicks in high level play. You've never seen a top Zerg completely killed off by a random hellion suicide?
It's not meta-game, it's not strategy, it's not punishing greed. It's a completely mindless attack. My primary problem with this game is that it takes ten times the skill to hold off a mindless stupid gimmick than it does to execute, so of course huge numbers of people rely on these stupid gimmicks for the easy wins.
I'm a big chess player, and I try and come up with a comparable situation in chess, but it just doesn't exist. If someone tried to do a 3-move fool's mate against me, it would be the easiest thing in the world to counter. The more simplistic and thoughtless a strategy is, the EASIER it SHOULD be to defeat.
This should be a game about strategy and out thinking your opponent, not a game of "I hope my opponent doesn't click the right places at the right moment," or "I hope my opponent opens 15 hatch when I 7 pool" or "I hope my opponent didn't memorize how to hold off the latest 3gate robo all in."
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On February 13 2012 23:02 BeeNu wrote:
I don't have ladder fear I have ladder apathy, my goal with laddering was to always reach Masters league, once I reached that I just lost most of my incentive to keep laddering. :O
I've been preferring to just play PeepMode maps and screw around instead.
Well said, I'm in the same boat. Of course I reached that goal back in season 1 :p and haven't really done anything with it since except get the other races up to masters as well.
I still play a lot of customs, but there is no real point to ladder anymore.
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I get angry everytime I hear about people who don't have the strength to play ladder ("ladder fear") even if they want to. God.
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I personally think the battlenet 2.0 interface is mainly to blame for this. It makes you feel completely alone and isolated. There's no sense of community at all like it was in all the earlier battlenets.
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On February 13 2012 23:00 Fossa wrote:I noticed on sc2 ranks that the number of players who did 1v1 ladder from last season decreased drastically. I think 1v1 ladder is a really good place to have fun and compete, so why do you think this is happening? I've also noticed a lot of my friends stopped playing the game, so I'm wondering if players who have played the game before are quitting. Season 5: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/0/142Season 4: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/0/141Season 2 (peak): http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/0/130Suggestions: 1. Perhaps figure out a way to reduce ladder fear? 2. Purchase stuff in a store using ladder points (like WoW pets or something)? Update: Fixed season 3 to season 2
Why is season 2 on the list? Season 2 lasted a lot longer than 4-5. And season 5 isn't even finished yet, right? But yea, idk. Maybe you're right tho. I personally contribute to the list. I'm playing a lot less because of mutas in PvZ. Not whinig about balance but ever since ~50% of the EU GM/high master zergs started going mutas, it bored me out and I'm just holding for the phoenix patch atm.
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It's just somehow.. Boring to play SC2?
There is no real ingame community.. Sure the guys i know from a long time ago are on my friend list, but it's just not the same.
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I'd say the biggest reason there were lower numbers this past season is SWTOR; at least that is where all my friends went.
BM? If bm prevents you from laddering you really need thicker skin. And its really rare at least in lower leagues, I've only encountered bm 2 or 3 times in probably 250 games in 1v1. Multiples on the other hand it is every other game.
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On February 14 2012 00:37 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:27 hzflank wrote:On February 14 2012 00:24 liberal wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 Silentenigma wrote:
Because it is not fun to play against abusers BM ers alliners.
Last time I played 99 percent of my games were 1 or 2 base allins(was mid masters).It is almost impossible to play a standard game...I would much rather to play custom games against similar skilled people. Pretty much this ^ I got so tired of pointless games that weren't even fun, and I quit for a couple weeks. I came back yesterday to ladder, got proxy 2gate rushed, and quit again It's just so much more fun to play against people you know with obs when you know it will be a real game and not some stupid gimmick that's just gonna stress you out. I always thought that rising higher in master league would mean facing fewer and fewer cheeses and all ins and gimmicky builds or strats, but it feels more gimmicky the higher I go. I mean I've seen people fucking SPAM hellions just so they can suicide them and run around and kill 30 workers. The games a joke to me. Why dont you see these gimmicks in high level (pro) games? because the pros can do a combination of small things to counter them / defend themselves. I cant, so I sometimes lose quickly, but if there was no threat of agressive play then what would stop me from double expanding before making any units? Keeping people honest (threat of aggression to punish greed) is an essential part of the game. I do see these gimmicks in high level play. You've never seen a top Zerg completely killed off by a random hellion suicide? It's not meta-game, it's not strategy, it's not punishing greed. It's a completely mindless attack. My primary problem with this game is that it takes ten times the skill to hold off a mindless stupid gimmick than it does to execute, so of course huge numbers of people rely on these stupid gimmicks for the easy wins. I'm a big chess player, and I try and come up with a comparable situation in chess, but it just doesn't exist. If someone tried to do a 3-move fool's mate against me, it would be the easiest thing in the world to counter. The more simplistic and thoughtless a strategy is, the EASIER it SHOULD be to defeat. This should be a game about strategy and out thinking your opponent, not a game of "I hope my opponent doesn't click the right places at the right moment," or "I hope my opponent opens 15 hatch when I 7 pool" or "I hope my opponent didn't memorize how to hold off the latest 3gate robo all in."
Its a risky move that can be very rewarding if the zerg is counting on you not to do that risky move and not having like... an evo and queens to block the hellions and defending properly... this game is about strategy most at the highest levels.. not at the lower leagues where its only about their macro and general build order... SC2 needs alot of knowledge about the game and mechanics... and when you are good at those you can focus more on the more strategic part of the game, which there is alot of its just not so used in the lower levels, because not every player is a progamer
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Simply put: MMR. I stopped laddering when blizzard removed losses.
I can't see my MMR, I can't see my win-ratio, and I can't see how I'm progressing.
I don't give a shit if I'm loosing or winning, but the fact that they are removing all statistics just pisses me off. I dont care if it's all that accurate (WLR), to me that's what I need. If Blizz could stop threating me as a 13 year old kid, who cries when WLR drops under 1, I'd start laddering way more. And get visible MMR while you're at it - that would be awesome!
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On February 14 2012 00:32 schimmetje wrote:
And of course there's also the issue where Blizzard has to give us something new
I think new things are about the end of it. SC2 has a big release, people like it because it's shiny, then a combination of other games / getting rolled and realizing being DRG takes a shitload of effort and people say fuck it, and lurk on TL and watch streams / tourneys.
I would say this is pretty natural, not to mention TONNES of games came out last year; COD, BF3, Gears 3, etc. All of which take people with a casual interest away from the game and remove it from thier minds / taskbar.
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On February 13 2012 23:14 Joseph123 wrote:
1. Perhaps add maps that are worth playing, how am i supposed to ladder a lot when there are 7 maps from which I've banned 3, so I'm playing the same maps over and over again and I don't even like them
Solution: add more maps + more bans.
2. Battle.net is a lonely boring place, all you can do is click find match button and that's all I do. If you want to get involved, you can do that, but that requires a lot of time and effort outside the game to find the people to do so.
Solution: Fix battle.net
3. There are no statistics about your games, just some boring match history that requires so much time to open anyway
Solution: Add more features to 1v1 statistics, I can't think of all of them, but statistics about every maps, every bo, every race, etc.. No, I don't want to use Sc2gears for that.
4. How am i supposed to keep on playing when i get 10 pvp's in a row? I don't care that "this is your luck" or something, I don't have all the time in the world to click the find match button, so if I play 10 games, I want them to be against all races.........................................?
Solution: Fix that.
5. The division system is completely retarded, there isn't a real way to compare yourself to your opponent and to all the people.... Just no comment, you are top1 master in one division, but in other you're like top25. Seriously? What is the point in that? The whole statistics are meaningless, you don't get any information about your skill improvement.
6. Things that compare you to other players such as apm are completely ruined by absolutely no reason, good job Blizzard -1 thing that can compare you to other people.
I can continue, but there is no point, they have shown no intention in making battle.net a place that you can do anything else other than pressing "Find match" and then using 3rd party programs for statistics. So people like me who wanna play maybe 20 games a day are gonna play a lot less, because there is nothing to keep us continuing to play after a long series of pvp's or just nothing happening, just staying at one place, no way to guess after this 20 games, did I improve or not? Did my MMR jump high or not? Of course I'm not able to understand that, because of bonus pool. Well done.
1. Too many maps means you can never get good in any map=you lower skill ceiling. 4-5 is the key number it seems to be good.
2. If you wanna socialice, go to facebook.
3. sc2gears
4. Omg, thats just primitive way of thinking, ist the same way of thinking, i wont put seatbelt on, because i know i wont crash. *facepalm*. You have chance to play 1000 pvp in a row, just think that way= the more you play same mu in a row, the better you get at it relative to playing different machups same amount of games.
5. Divisions are not indication of skill, but progress (day9). Like its in EVERY SINGLE GAME, if you wanna know how good you are, you join tournaments.
6. Same as nr 5.
Sriously thou, battlenet ladder works perfectly. I cant understand the whining at all, you feel just a person who is tired from work, or dumped by girlfriend and needs unreasonable way to release hes/her anger. Starcraft 2 is rts, all you brought up, has nothing to do with the GAME (well first one does a bit).
EDIT: you need to start worryign about player base when your below like 10k active players.
EDIT2: Its only natural that after some time the games popularity gets alot lower, its called... real world (specially like sc2, where you ahve to get good by having skill, 90% of players are not willing to put in any practice or trying to get good).
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I quit playing sc2 too because the fun is gone. I played protoss for over 1000 games custom and ladder and went from bronze to masters. Now that I'm masters I know a lot more and you realize some stuff just doesn't feel right. For example blind 6 pools, perfect 1-1-1 is enough for mid masters, double drops without any scouting and in P v P you often get a BO advantage without it being strategy. Also i'm kinda done with protoss. I have used nearly every style/openener and played against a lot of opponents. I tried switching but there is no fun in getting owned 30 games in a row by opponents you know you would own hard with protoss. Maybe making a seperate ladder for every race would help because people can try out their other races as well.
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On February 14 2012 00:37 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:27 hzflank wrote:On February 14 2012 00:24 liberal wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 Silentenigma wrote:
Because it is not fun to play against abusers BM ers alliners.
Last time I played 99 percent of my games were 1 or 2 base allins(was mid masters).It is almost impossible to play a standard game...I would much rather to play custom games against similar skilled people. Pretty much this ^ I got so tired of pointless games that weren't even fun, and I quit for a couple weeks. I came back yesterday to ladder, got proxy 2gate rushed, and quit again It's just so much more fun to play against people you know with obs when you know it will be a real game and not some stupid gimmick that's just gonna stress you out. I always thought that rising higher in master league would mean facing fewer and fewer cheeses and all ins and gimmicky builds or strats, but it feels more gimmicky the higher I go. I mean I've seen people fucking SPAM hellions just so they can suicide them and run around and kill 30 workers. The games a joke to me. Why dont you see these gimmicks in high level (pro) games? because the pros can do a combination of small things to counter them / defend themselves. I cant, so I sometimes lose quickly, but if there was no threat of agressive play then what would stop me from double expanding before making any units? Keeping people honest (threat of aggression to punish greed) is an essential part of the game. I do see these gimmicks in high level play. You've never seen a top Zerg completely killed off by a random hellion suicide? It's not meta-game, it's not strategy, it's not punishing greed. It's a completely mindless attack. My primary problem with this game is that it takes ten times the skill to hold off a mindless stupid gimmick than it does to execute, so of course huge numbers of people rely on these stupid gimmicks for the easy wins. I'm a big chess player, and I try and come up with a comparable situation in chess, but it just doesn't exist. If someone tried to do a 3-move fool's mate against me, it would be the easiest thing in the world to counter. The more simplistic and thoughtless a strategy is, the EASIER it SHOULD be to defeat. This should be a game about strategy and out thinking your opponent, not a game of "I hope my opponent doesn't click the right places at the right moment," or "I hope my opponent opens 15 hatch when I 7 pool" or "I hope my opponent didn't memorize how to hold off the latest 3gate robo all in."
This has probably been brought up several times, but chess isn't the perfect analogy for SC2 per se. There is a "poker" element to the game. Even high level pros drop games on ladder.
Over the course of an entire season though, the more skilled a player is, the better his record.
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1. price drop is needed, with all the talks about an expansion, it's hard to justify a full or nearly full price
2. Blizzard isn't promoting the game enough, other competitive games get much more attention
3. BN 2.0
4. region locks
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playing with friends in cg or 2v2-3v3-4v4 way more entertaining for casual players.
We have pro streams to watch and enjoy 1v1 :D
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I feel like its not the amount of reward you gain when winning because Im satisfied after winning. The problem si the amount of punishment you get for a loss.
You win a game then lose two and you have less points than before. Thats really demotivating. even though points dont count to your promotion, doesnt it feel better to have 800 points than having only 100?
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On February 14 2012 00:44 LeibSaiLeib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:14 Joseph123 wrote:
1. Perhaps add maps that are worth playing, how am i supposed to ladder a lot when there are 7 maps from which I've banned 3, so I'm playing the same maps over and over again and I don't even like them
Solution: add more maps + more bans.
2. Battle.net is a lonely boring place, all you can do is click find match button and that's all I do. If you want to get involved, you can do that, but that requires a lot of time and effort outside the game to find the people to do so.
Solution: Fix battle.net
3. There are no statistics about your games, just some boring match history that requires so much time to open anyway
Solution: Add more features to 1v1 statistics, I can't think of all of them, but statistics about every maps, every bo, every race, etc.. No, I don't want to use Sc2gears for that.
4. How am i supposed to keep on playing when i get 10 pvp's in a row? I don't care that "this is your luck" or something, I don't have all the time in the world to click the find match button, so if I play 10 games, I want them to be against all races.........................................?
Solution: Fix that.
5. The division system is completely retarded, there isn't a real way to compare yourself to your opponent and to all the people.... Just no comment, you are top1 master in one division, but in other you're like top25. Seriously? What is the point in that? The whole statistics are meaningless, you don't get any information about your skill improvement.
6. Things that compare you to other players such as apm are completely ruined by absolutely no reason, good job Blizzard -1 thing that can compare you to other people.
I can continue, but there is no point, they have shown no intention in making battle.net a place that you can do anything else other than pressing "Find match" and then using 3rd party programs for statistics. So people like me who wanna play maybe 20 games a day are gonna play a lot less, because there is nothing to keep us continuing to play after a long series of pvp's or just nothing happening, just staying at one place, no way to guess after this 20 games, did I improve or not? Did my MMR jump high or not? Of course I'm not able to understand that, because of bonus pool. Well done. 1. Too many maps means you can never get good in any map=you lower skill ceiling. 4-5 is the key number it seems to be good. 2. If you wanna socialice, go to facebook. 3. sc2gears 4. Omg, thats just primitive way of thinking, ist the same way of thinking, i wont put seatbelt on, because i know i wont crash. *facepalm*. You have chance to play 1000 pvp in a row, just think that way= the more you play same mu in a row, the better you get at it relative to playing different machups same amount of games. 5. Divisions are not indication of skill, but progress (day9). Like its in EVERY SINGLE GAME, if you wanna know how good you are, you join tournaments. 6. Same as nr 5. Sriously thou, battlenet ladder works perfectly. I cant understand the whining at all, you feel just a person who is tired from work, or dumped by girlfriend and needs unreasonable way to release hes/her anger. Starcraft 2 is rts, all you brought up, has nothing to do with the GAME (well first one does a bit).
Clearly, he doesn't think it works perfectly. It's great that you think it's an excellent system but a lot of people do not think that, whether it's interface, or matchmaking, or social stuff. Plus the existence of SC2Gears/Facebook does not excuse BNet 2.0 from not living up to expectations. It's like selling a substandard/incomplete product.
I personally don't mind BNet 2.0 that much but you have to be receptive of other viewpoints. In the end it's a game and it's about having fun (job for a select few), and Blizzard isn't doing as good a job as they could be if some/many players are losing enjoyment because of flaws in their product.
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On February 14 2012 00:44 LeibSaiLeib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:14 Joseph123 wrote:
1. Perhaps add maps that are worth playing, how am i supposed to ladder a lot when there are 7 maps from which I've banned 3, so I'm playing the same maps over and over again and I don't even like them
Solution: add more maps + more bans.
2. Battle.net is a lonely boring place, all you can do is click find match button and that's all I do. If you want to get involved, you can do that, but that requires a lot of time and effort outside the game to find the people to do so.
Solution: Fix battle.net
3. There are no statistics about your games, just some boring match history that requires so much time to open anyway
Solution: Add more features to 1v1 statistics, I can't think of all of them, but statistics about every maps, every bo, every race, etc.. No, I don't want to use Sc2gears for that.
4. How am i supposed to keep on playing when i get 10 pvp's in a row? I don't care that "this is your luck" or something, I don't have all the time in the world to click the find match button, so if I play 10 games, I want them to be against all races.........................................?
Solution: Fix that.
5. The division system is completely retarded, there isn't a real way to compare yourself to your opponent and to all the people.... Just no comment, you are top1 master in one division, but in other you're like top25. Seriously? What is the point in that? The whole statistics are meaningless, you don't get any information about your skill improvement.
6. Things that compare you to other players such as apm are completely ruined by absolutely no reason, good job Blizzard -1 thing that can compare you to other people.
I can continue, but there is no point, they have shown no intention in making battle.net a place that you can do anything else other than pressing "Find match" and then using 3rd party programs for statistics. So people like me who wanna play maybe 20 games a day are gonna play a lot less, because there is nothing to keep us continuing to play after a long series of pvp's or just nothing happening, just staying at one place, no way to guess after this 20 games, did I improve or not? Did my MMR jump high or not? Of course I'm not able to understand that, because of bonus pool. Well done. 1. Too many maps means you can never get good in any map=you lower skill ceiling. 4-5 is the key number it seems to be good. 2. If you wanna socialice, go to facebook. 3. sc2gears 4. Omg, thats just primitive way of thinking, ist the same way of thinking, i wont put seatbelt on, because i know i wont crash. *facepalm*. You have chance to play 1000 pvp in a row, just think that way= the more you play same mu in a row, the better you get at it relative to playing different machups same amount of games. 5. Divisions are not indication of skill, but progress (day9). Like its in EVERY SINGLE GAME, if you wanna know how good you are, you join tournaments. 6. Same as nr 5. Sriously thou, battlenet ladder works perfectly. I cant understand the whining at all, you feel just a person who is tired from work, or dumped by girlfriend and needs unreasonable way to release hes/her anger. Starcraft 2 is rts, all you brought up, has nothing to do with the GAME (well first one does a bit). EDIT: you need to start worryign about player base when your below like 10k active players.
The reasons he give are likely reasons to why so many stopped playing. Who says it has to be good reasons? Good or bad reasons it's probably the correct reasons for why so many quit. At least his second point. An in game community is an important aspect to keep people playing otherwise it starts feeling like a single player game after a while and you'll get bored. Maybe that's not the case for YOU but it's the case for MANY others. Having to use third party programs to keep track of things that they have implemented in older versions of battle.net surely doesn't help them either.
I don't think the game itself is the problem, I personally think battlenet is a much bigger problem.
Most people can't bother to join tournaments and feel that they are not good enough, so having a ladder that actually gives you an indication of where you're at and how you progress like they had in wc3 is also important to keep people interested in laddering I think.
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On February 13 2012 23:18 Telcontar wrote:
I'm hardly laddering anymore because I just don't find the game that fun to play (or even watch). Not sure if I'm going to buy any of the expansions at this point.
Unfortunately, I'm in the same exact boat. I don't play as much because I feel like I enjoy watching streams and tournaments more, but this is even starting to give me a burnt out feeling where it's like a sensory overload, and I want to get away from it. I remember watching brood war replays and old broadcasts, and I think there was a nice balance of just enough footage to keep you interested and you could come back at a later time and still enjoy. Now, with all these streams, a ton of organizations putting on tournaments, etc., there is just so much material out there where it doesn't seem you can take a break without running into more Starcraft 2 somewhere.
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EPT
