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On February 16 2012 03:39 enCore- wrote:
Are we really discussing this? Most people are just pathetic weaklings that don't thrive on competition/improving oneself and give up quickly. They want the CoDs, LoLs, DotAs and WoW because its a lot more easy and cosy than brutal competition like in starcraft2. They're killing esports.
Since Valve announced LAN and modding capabilites for DotA 2, and by the looks of things it will probably even be f2p in the end, DotA 2 will by far beat SC2 in the eSports scene if Blizzard continues their business model
With LAN and possibly f2p, the chinese dota scene will go batshit insane, and last time I checked there is a metric fuckton of passionate chinese dota players
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:42 ozeake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:14 kusto wrote:
Ladder is as competitive as you want it to be. It is as much at stake as you yourself put in there. You certainly can identify yourself with the silly icon some guy from Blizzard designed and therefore your pride is at stake, and whatnot.
Or you can just enjoy queued games against people with approximately your skill. If you want to be stressed out, then be. Even pro gamers off race or do silly strats just to relax from practice or have a bit fun and showcase interesting strats on stream with their main account. Nobody gives a fuck. Wow, way to play armchair psychologist and to condescend. Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:14 kusto wrote:If you don't care about some delusional icon with points, you will have more fun. Simple as that. For the record, I don't care about avatars. I have had the same one since season 1 and don't have any plans of changing it. You're basically shitting on me for caring about the level of play in the matches I play, implying it's bad to do so and tacking on (what you apparently think is) a further insult in that you think I'm interested in rank and avatars. If you really think no one should care about ability or take anything seriously, then perhaps you are in the wrong place.
First of all: You call me anal-retentive and i'm the armchair-psychologist? Calm down.
Second: I want to make it short, because you don't seem to grasp the point i want to make:
You can stress and freak out because you lose (i do that too), but not because you lose on ladder. You can claim what you want, but nothing is at stake there, it doesn't even have a tournament format. It just queues random people with equal MMR.
If you want to play competitively there, do it with that mindset, but don't bitch about lost points, because they don't matter.
Tournaments, however, are are a completely different issue. I hope you understand what i mean now.
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This might be a revelation to some people, but really most gamers are pretty fickle. They buy a game and play it until something else attracts their eye or they get "bored" and move on. Most gamers aren't cut out to sit down with a game and seriously play it in a competitive setting for a significant amount of time.
The console market (biggest audience unfortunately) is a prime example of this. A new game comes out with multiplayer that isn't Halo, Call of Duty, or Gears of War. A ton of people play it for a few weeks and then it's community dies because it's not one of the above. MMO's suffer from this as well with good initial numbers and then everyone goes back to WoW.
Add to that the culture of competitive gamers (cry OP at everything, BM when outsmarted, learn one strategy and never deviate,etc) and it's only natural for a large portion of players to be turned away over time.
You can point at specific things and claim they are the culprit but really it's just gamer culture for a competitive game. If the game was as easy as most popular games then we would have to look elsewhere for causes. Lan, shared replays, improved Bnet, etc aren't the silver bullet and would be bandaid solutions at best.
If anything, the decision to make 3 seperate games is the best thing that could have happened in terms of player-base as it gets more attention from the ADD and campaign players again.
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well i think most people forgot what games used to be, remember play console with friends? wasn't it one of the most fun things to do? we loved to play consoles, it was just the best ever, then the computer and internet games came and it was even more great. people would go "pro" because they loved the game so much, that they just wanted to play and get better...
many post imply, that you have to "work" or get your mind straight, to enjoy it... well that's bullshit, the quality and fun factor of the game is what counts... imagine a lot more people got to knew sc:bw, the more people would have played it, because the game, only the game is just great.
if you have to convince yourself, to play a game, just because the predecessor was fucking insane, you should come to the conclusion, that the game you would love to enjoy, isn't that good.
and ofc, a lot of people still love the new game, progamers naturally continue to evolve (because they make money with it and it's their life) and the masses get pulled by a big history brand name.
i think we all should step back and remember what games used to be for us, FUN!
if you are not willing enough, perhaps you should think about, what the real problem is...
imo sc2 is a very nice spectator and e-sports game, but playing it, is something else.
well we will see how it turns out, we will still get 2 expansions, but facing the development and evolvment of blizzard and it's game, i am not too positive.
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If you like 1v1, and like playing against folks at around your skill level, you're going to ladder. If not, you won't. The "interface" and it's "lack of features" has nothing to do with it.
If you're interested in 1v1 against similarly skilled opponents, the only interface required is that big ol' Find Match button.
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On February 16 2012 06:48 moltobenny wrote:
If you like 1v1, and like playing against folks at around your skill level, you're going to ladder. If not, you won't. The "interface" and it's "lack of features" has nothing to do with it.
If you're interested in 1v1 against similarly skilled opponents, the only interface required is that big ol' Find Match button.
Looks like you know nothing about the WC3 or BW battle.net interface.
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I actually played a couple of ladder games this week, mostly because dota2 beta has been down and tribes ascend is becoming kind of a grind to play. I wonder how many "active" players actually just play a few times a month. I'm sure a lot of people just do their placements to see if they got a promotion and then become mostly inactive. A good portion of the players in my division have less than five games played by the end of the season.
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Yeah I think this is a big one. I've seen this sentiment echoed on r/starcraft as well. Remember in BW how easy it was to chat and socialize. Although it can be done in sc2 through clans and chat rooms, everything feels much harder.
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I Started playing with a small group of friends, we were fairly competitive and did a lot of custom 1v1s against each other. Me and one guy kept track of win/loss against each other and I remember at one point being tied 31-31.
But I watched GSL, I watched Day9, Husky etc... and he never did, and eventually its just a Diamond beating up on 3 Silver friends.
None of us ever liked team stuff really, so they stopped playing eventually
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If we're going to pretend that social features and chat rooms would improve the situation, look at the official Battlenet forums and realize what that would look like. The community for the game is too big for that to be positive.
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tbh I played more when I had more friends that played we'd 1v1 vs each other and because we wanted to get better to beat each other we would ladder. Now that most of my friends have stopped playing and have moved on to dota2 ( I want my invite Q_Q) and other games I don't have the drive to 1v1 anymore and team games with randoms just isn't as fun as with your friends on skype 
I think If i found the right group I'd play more but its just not as fun doing it all alone. Also the custom games just aren't there in this one so it's not like I want to play those.
Add in school and what not and the past few seasons have been placement match + a few games when I get the time and really really want to play.
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In the last few month there were some big changes in my mindset. Now I don't try to climb to the top anymore and I don't care what my rankings are. If I lose I just keep playing until I have feel I learned something and then goto watch a movie. Surprisingly (or not, now it makes all sense) I climed from Plat to Master in 6 Weeks and I have more fun them ever. Losing to some allin makes me watch the replay and fix my flaws instead of blaming in on the other player.
As I'm writing this I just thought I overcame my inner IdrA... 
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On February 16 2012 04:33 CalmKiwi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:39 enCore- wrote:
Are we really discussing this? Most people are just pathetic weaklings that don't thrive on competition/improving oneself and give up quickly. They want the CoDs, LoLs, DotAs and WoW because its a lot more easy and cosy than brutal competition like in starcraft2. They're killing esports. Since Valve announced LAN and modding capabilites for DotA 2, and by the looks of things it will probably even be f2p in the end, DotA 2 will by far beat SC2 in the eSports scene if Blizzard continues their business model With LAN and possibly f2p, the chinese dota scene will go batshit insane, and last time I checked there is a metric fuckton of passionate chinese dota players
Yup, Valve walked the walk and put the vital features in their game to make it a legit contender for the best competitive MOBA out there. I know there's a contingent of people that say it's the best already.
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Have not touched SC2 at all since Season 3, still watches the major tournaments/events tho.
Simply just got bored/tired of playing the game, i dont think a better designed Bnet UI would have kept me in.
Right now im playing Dota 2, while waiting for Diablo 3.
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There's something to the type of game, and the fact that the mod element hasn't taken off. With CoD or Halo or any of those titles, you are immediately immersed in a conflict with a multitude of other players, with a rapid pacing that is always on the up. A game of Starcraft is a continual elevation, getting more complex over time, only to completely reset after the gg. Add to this the dearth of social capabilities on the platform and the relative lack of fun mods, and it makes sense that people would head to another game this far after release. With HotS, users will pick it back up, learn a bunch of new things, and the momentum will be up. The longevity of SC2, much like SC1, will remain in the hands of a dedicated bunch of serious players. It's just not a game that most people would want to play forever.
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On February 16 2012 02:21 Clarity_nl wrote:
So you're saying there are people out there that think they're so morally superior because they don't cheese, but they rage at people cheesing when they lose?
The threat of cheese is necessary to make interesting games, otherwise both sides just go up to 3-4 base asap and deathball it up. Doesn't seem that interesting to me.
If you're going to work on a macro style, why rage when you get cheesed. You NEED to get cheesed, or you won't learn how to play properly.
So either go cheese every game and don't improve, or play to improve and don't be a sissy when you lose to cheese.
I understand that sc2 is much more taxing than any other game out there right now, so if you stop committing, that's fine.
But don't blame some arbitrary thing like cheese or luck. It's in your head.
Edit: People who claim to be casual but whine when they lose to cheese.... must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Some of the shit you said makes no sense.
1) Cheese/All-ins are extremely more potent than they ever were in BW. The fact that all races are in the dark for the first few minutes of the game exacerbates this greatly. Double Reactor Helions is almost practically unscoutable by a Z player unless he just gets blatantly lucky on where he is saccing his OL/scouting his Ling. If you don't scout Double Reactor Helions, you flat out die half the time.
2) The threat of cheese is necessary to make interesting games. The threat of constant all-ins that create retarded metagames is not. When an all-in/cheese takes an absurd amount of control/awareness to counter (such as the 1-1-1), it becomes really stupid for "casual" players.
3) In BW, all-ins and cheeses had significant risks. Metagame cheeses are almost for sure fire wins or significant advantages for most races, and they are virtually unscoutable unlike in BW. All-ins are not really all ins like they were in BW, because as long as you trade armies and do a little economic advantage, you are still in the game due to things like Larvae Inject, Mules, and Chronos.
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what I hate is divisions. Honestly one big league of players in each league, removal of bonus points, and point threshold for when you get promoted to the next league is something that i really think is needed.
so if someone is top 10 bronze, it means something to them. they should know they are shit, but at least they know they are slightly better, and at least know theyre very close to silver, meaningfully
and if someone is top 10 masters, they know they are good, and can pride themselves on that
honestly divisions are completely fucked, me being 300 points ahead in my league cos i made a new account doesnt mean shit, because in the same league there are probably tonnes of people in the same situation and I cannot see how I'm going against them
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On February 13 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:05 Silentenigma wrote:
Because it is not fun to play against abusers BM ers alliners.
Last time I played 99 percent of my games were 1 or 2 base allins(was mid masters).It is almost impossible to play a standard game...I would much rather to play custom games against similar skilled people. I really dislike this mindset, and I think it is the cause of a lot of the bad manners that I encounter on the ladder. I dont think there is any such thing as cheese or all-in. Aggressive strategies are a very important part of the game. I have noticed that the idea of cheese does not exist with koreans, and perhaps this is an important part of why they are so good.
i agree with this 100%. Everyone has the terrible mindset that all ins and cheese are BM, but the best players are the ones that dont cry about it, and learn how to stop it.
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The real problem in my eyes is that its just not fun. Thanks to the matchmaking system you can't just goof off and do random builds because you are probably just going to lose. Also, the games tend to play out in very similar ways which makes things stale. There really aren't that many different strategies that you go up against that make each game feel unique. And of course, all of the maps still feel small and not that great to me. I stopped playing 2 seasons ago and haven't really had an urge to play again.
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EPT
