|
On February 16 2012 01:14 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:54 ozeake wrote:On February 15 2012 22:31 kusto wrote:On February 15 2012 22:28 Zanazuah wrote:On February 15 2012 22:21 kusto wrote:On February 15 2012 22:09 ozeake wrote:
Personally, I don't really ladder these days because it makes me angry.
Not just when I lose, mind - even when I win I get angry. If I win, I'm angry at the other person's lack of skill (since typically there will be some glaring mistake(s) they made) and if I lose, I'm angry at myself for not doing better. So, I save myself the aggravation and just don't play on the ladder. Sorry but that's not ladder-specific at all. Yes it is. He doesent get mad by team games or customs obviously. Obviously people in team games and customs also make mistakes. And so does he. Yes, but the point is that it is not the same situation. In custom games there is nothing at stake and most people don't take team games seriously. I will teill you what my problem is with his statement. He says that he gets mad in ladder because of the mistakes he and his opponent make. It seems that this is not entirely true, because you make mistakes if you play no matter where. The only difference between the two "play-modes" he presents is that 1. 1v1 ladder: you are alone and ladder points are at stake, also tend to identify yourself with your league and points 2. Custom games/team games (also team games ladder): you don not feel as responsible for the mistakes done by the team, thus do not identify yourself with the league of the team. In custom games, obviously you make even more mistakes if you don't take it as serious, so his argument for not playing customs would be even increased. This means that you are actually right when you say that something is at stake - it's ranking. If you don't care about your ranking, then 1v1 ladder is very much fun.
Are you intentionally being this anal-retentive? Outside of actual tournaments, ladder is as competitive as anything gets on SC2. So, if I make mistakes when I am trying to play as well as I can, I get mad. If the other person plays like shit, it doesn't feel like a worthwhile match.
|
SC2 ranking system somehow being less intuitive and less useful than something like ICCUP doesn't help.
|
bnet 2.0 is terrible, ladder system is terrible, game is not terrible, but also not good enough for playing more than a few months on a casual basis. i still like watching pros on big events, but i dont even think i will buy the addon.
|
I love Starcraft 2 but I played a game of Sins of a Solar Empire and fell in love. And that's against the AI. (Sins is a harsh and terrible mistress time wise. But you can pause the game or save it and come back a week later.)
I don't know how to fix SC2 1v1 ladder. I still have fun with BW but prefer the SC2 pretty. I hope Blizzard keeps improving the AI because that's where most non-professionals will be playing in the future. If you don't have time for a team or a clan what else can you do. I understand when people say "cheese" is part of the game; I just don't want to play 20 identical games (beating back a rush) against the same race on the same maps. I dislike mirror matchups unless it's Leenock V Nestea.
I spend a lot more time watching pros play SC2 than actually playing. If I didn't have Day[9] or Tastetosis or Husky or Mr. Bitter or Gretorp or iNcontrol or Idra or Moletrap or Apollo or HD or Painuser or JP or Lumin or Rotterdam or TotalHalibut I don't know what I would do. When I am watching them I feel like I am part of an SC2 community. And that's what I like the most even if its self delusional. And I think others like the communal feeling just as much and that's why barcrafts are growing.
Just my 69 cents. 
|
On February 14 2012 23:51 Snotling wrote:
because its not that fun. its not a game on interesting tactics and battles. its a game of doing the same thing over and over and over without making any mistakes. if you make a mistake, your dead. Do you have a proposal how to combat this? Making the game more forgiving? This automatically increases the luck factor. Do you like to win a game because you were lucky?
I think when the match maker gives you opponents with about the same skill as you, you get fair games and that is all one should ask for.
If you don't like to have close games anytime, the matchmaker needs to intentionally set stronger versus weaker opponents. This allows you to roll an opponent every now and then, but also implies that you get rolfstomped every now and then.
|
Players are leaving the game because it is simply too volatile even all the way up to high Grand Masters. You can literally metagame cheese/all-in your way to the top due to the inability for most races to scout in the early minutes of the game. To most casual players, this is incredibly frustrating. It doesn't help that the majority of the maps before really heavily favored this style of play.
Bad game design was eventually going to show up, and now it is.
|
On February 15 2012 00:40 Penecks wrote:
I still play 1v1s, usually everyday, but I can see why people would stop. My two negative points about it, I'm sure they've been touched on:
1) Treadmill feeling - no matter how much you improve you still lose half of your games. This is incredibly unintuitive to players from other games/genres. If I'm masters and my friend is silver, you'd say the skill difference is pretty high there, yet when we play ladder we lose the same amount. If we were Counterstrike players with these same skill levels, for example, and I said our global K/D was the same you wouldn't believe it: the better players have a chance to stand out in those games.
If the match maker would lean more towards the average skill to get you an opponent, resulting in higher win ratios for above-average players, the below-average players would lose more game and most probably quit the game rather sooner than later. While the current system which attempts to get you an even win ratio is frustrating for some, I think it is the lesser evil.
|
I don't understand how the subjects listed in the OP(except for 2 and 7) relate to 1v1 LADDER, why do you wanna chat while laddering? What does custom games have to do with laddering? What does tournaments have to do with LADDER?
|
On February 15 2012 22:54 bokeevboke wrote:71% players stopped laddering. thats pretty huge 
71% stopped since when? When you factor in that new people are always picking up the game, and some servers were merged, if we only have 29% of the current players compared to season 2, then I would say more like 90% of those that have picked up the game have dropped it.
Anyway don't panic too much. The SC2 ranks are cumulative, a number goes up every time a player does his 1st match in that season. So shorter seasons will have less players naturally. So this figure is a bit misleading, but there is no getting away from the fact that SC2 seems to have dropped off in popularity massively. Quite deserved too imo.
|
My 1v1 ladder basically consists of me trolling bronze and silver league players. I got to master last season, but I'm pretty much stuck at a wall and I dont really like challenge. I just want to play to enjoy the game. I dont play to win, and I dont care about "improvement".
When can you get away with a map-wide cannon contain in master league? lol...
|
If Blizzard wants to revive the ladder and satisfy their players more, they will implement a Best of 3 option somehow. Right now I'm trying to go from diamond to masters, and it's shitty due to all the BM and cheese (i respect its validity, i'm practicing defense, i dont have scrub mentality) and shitty map pool (although recently improved, thanks Blizz!). So it makes me not want to ladder..
but if I could play bo3s I think my matchups would all improve and I would improve a lot as a player
|
I honestly think if they fixed b.net they would retain alot of players because it was 100x easier to do customs in WC3 and BW. I was a kid when WC3 was out and played custom games 100 percent of the time, and mainly kept playing because it was so easy to find DOTA games, find TD game, all of those awesome customs.
|
The reason people stop playing is because it's unforgiving just like what happened with BW. The only way to fix it is to dumb down the game which is not what we want.
|
On February 16 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
Players are leaving the game because it is simply too volatile even all the way up to high Grand Masters. You can literally metagame cheese/all-in your way to the top due to the inability for most races to scout in the early minutes of the game. To most casual players, this is incredibly frustrating. It doesn't help that the majority of the maps before really heavily favored this style of play.
Bad game design was eventually going to show up, and now it is.
This exactly
The game needs more stability, the ability for a casual player to play standard and not be rolling the dice with every action they take on whether they're gonna lose to one all-in or another any second.
We don't have the top player's control to survive these things without significant prep, while the other player just memorizes their 1-2 base all-in.
|
On February 16 2012 02:09 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
Players are leaving the game because it is simply too volatile even all the way up to high Grand Masters. You can literally metagame cheese/all-in your way to the top due to the inability for most races to scout in the early minutes of the game. To most casual players, this is incredibly frustrating. It doesn't help that the majority of the maps before really heavily favored this style of play.
Bad game design was eventually going to show up, and now it is. This exactly The game needs more stability, the ability for a casual player to play standard and not be rolling the dice with every action they take on whether they're gonna lose to one all-in or another any second. We don't have the top player's control to survive these things without significant prep, while the other player just memorizes their 1-2 base all-in.
What you want Blizzard to do? ban cheese? It's all about players's skill. You can't expect everyone to play macro game with you. If you ask me it's casual players that need to learn to fend off cheese.
|
On February 16 2012 01:55 ishyishy wrote:
My 1v1 ladder basically consists of me trolling bronze and silver league players. I got to master last season, but I'm pretty much stuck at a wall and I dont really like challenge. I just want to play to enjoy the game. I dont play to win, and I dont care about "improvement".
When can you get away with a map-wide cannon contain in master league? lol...
I've seriously considered doing something similar to this. Playing turtle-zerg and just slowly creep across the map. It'd get me playing 1v1s more and maybe get me interested in playing again...
|
On February 16 2012 02:15 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 02:09 Shiladie wrote:On February 16 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
Players are leaving the game because it is simply too volatile even all the way up to high Grand Masters. You can literally metagame cheese/all-in your way to the top due to the inability for most races to scout in the early minutes of the game. To most casual players, this is incredibly frustrating. It doesn't help that the majority of the maps before really heavily favored this style of play.
Bad game design was eventually going to show up, and now it is. This exactly The game needs more stability, the ability for a casual player to play standard and not be rolling the dice with every action they take on whether they're gonna lose to one all-in or another any second. We don't have the top player's control to survive these things without significant prep, while the other player just memorizes their 1-2 base all-in. What you want Blizzard to do? ban cheese? It's all about players's skill. You can't expect everyone to play macro game with you. If you ask me it's casual players that need to learn to fend off cheese.
They can easily make defence and scouting easier, so that cheese becomes the risk it was in BW instead of the near gauranteed damage it is in SC2. Once this is done people will use cheese to keep people honest, but not expect to win with it vs somebody going standard.
Also telling casuals "just learn to defend cheese" is one of the most ignorant things I've heard. the point is that they're casual players, they play for fun, and when playing casually means they get rolled by cheese or all-ins most of the time, it becomes not fun and they leave. If they suddenly decide to start taking it seriously and learn how to counter that stuff, they have by definition stopped being a casual player...
The key point there is that it is a LOT easier to execute these cheese builds than to defend from them, meaning that if the players are equal skill, the one cheesing/all-ining wins the VAST majority of the time. Once you learn to counter the set of cheeses/all-ins you face at your current level you rank up to the next level where you run into the next set. eventually you get into GM where you get to be cheesed by the best cheesers around... but by then you've gone so far beyond casual the point is moot.
|
So you're saying there are people out there that think they're so morally superior because they don't cheese, but they rage at people cheesing when they lose?
The threat of cheese is necessary to make interesting games, otherwise both sides just go up to 3-4 base asap and deathball it up. Doesn't seem that interesting to me.
If you're going to work on a macro style, why rage when you get cheesed. You NEED to get cheesed, or you won't learn how to play properly.
So either go cheese every game and don't improve, or play to improve and don't be a sissy when you lose to cheese.
I understand that sc2 is much more taxing than any other game out there right now, so if you stop committing, that's fine.
But don't blame some arbitrary thing like cheese or luck. It's in your head.
Edit: People who claim to be casual but whine when they lose to cheese.... must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
|
On February 16 2012 02:20 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 02:15 Wildmoon wrote:On February 16 2012 02:09 Shiladie wrote:On February 16 2012 01:38 superstartran wrote:
Players are leaving the game because it is simply too volatile even all the way up to high Grand Masters. You can literally metagame cheese/all-in your way to the top due to the inability for most races to scout in the early minutes of the game. To most casual players, this is incredibly frustrating. It doesn't help that the majority of the maps before really heavily favored this style of play.
Bad game design was eventually going to show up, and now it is. This exactly The game needs more stability, the ability for a casual player to play standard and not be rolling the dice with every action they take on whether they're gonna lose to one all-in or another any second. We don't have the top player's control to survive these things without significant prep, while the other player just memorizes their 1-2 base all-in. What you want Blizzard to do? ban cheese? It's all about players's skill. You can't expect everyone to play macro game with you. If you ask me it's casual players that need to learn to fend off cheese. They can easily make defence and scouting easier, so that cheese becomes the risk it was in BW instead of the near gauranteed damage it is in SC2. Once this is done people will use cheese to keep people honest, but not expect to win with it vs somebody going standard. Also telling casuals "just learn to defend cheese" is one of the most ignorant things I've heard. the point is that they're casual players, they play for fun, and when playing casually means they get rolled by cheese or all-ins most of the time, it becomes not fun and they leave. If they suddenly decide to start taking it seriously and learn how to counter that stuff, they have by definition stopped being a casual player...
Scouting is not that harder than BW. Cheese is the risk in SC2 if you fail you are dead.
|
I think some of you are looking way to deep. The bulk of players exist in bronze/silver and the number is decreasing for 1v1/2v2/team/ffa/etc (realistically the number of players logged in to sc2 bnet in general is DOWN). Why is that? Because the game is not that fun that everyone would want to be playing for two years straight. Probably half of the people who bought SC2 played some campaign and a few customs vs AI and never even logged into bnet. Out of those that did, lots of people probably played a couple dozen solos in S1/S2 and that's it.
If the game were more balance or had a better map pool (the game is already really well balanced and has a good map pool) would there be more people playing? Probably not, tbh.
You'll see another influx of players with HotS and then it'll steadily drop off again. I don't think it's really a problem.
For a lot of my friends who played maybe 200 games s1/s2/s3 and then quit... would nerfing 1/1/1 and adding dual sight into the pool (just as an example) make them want to put down something else and come back? Hell no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
