Phoenix range is something I posted about a lot so I'm glad that it happened.

I feel that Ravens need a buff to make them viable against Broodlords. Maybe make the HSM range bigger only for air units, to force Broodlord spreading, or make it a free upgrade. It really sucks that they have an ability that is never used.

Lonyo

United Kingdom3884 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#366

On February 11 2012 02:51 turdburgler wrote:
its not all about being good though. a terran army doesnt have to beat a 200 supply zerg army, it has to beat 2 of them. enough terran units need to survive to hold the line against the reinforcements. its about effeciency. thats the problem with vikings against broods. you have this 200/200 battle in the middle of the map, he doesnt have to kill your vikings because the next battle wont feature any air units.

A zerg army doesn't have to beat a 200 supply terran army, he has to use two to try and wear the terran army down and hope that his second army can hit before there are enough reinforcements from the barracks pumping 15 bio units at a time to kill the army and then make it to the terran base and get through the PFs and walls and bunkers protecting it to kill the production facilities before the terran can get out enough extra units from his 15+ units a round rax production + factories and starports to push back the zerg and then roll in for the kill because the zerg has no larva left after making two armies.

See? Both ways.

KingOfAmerica

United States246 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#367

(terran qq incoming)

Love the APM change, shows Blizzard is listening. Love the phoenix buff... I think that adds some more micro opportunity into PvZ late game which is really cool. I'm ok with the mule nerf, that is only fair.

Lots of concerns about this snipe nerf. I agree that at the top level this was a major problem, but man... infestor BL is going to be a major problem. And it is not like Terrans are A-moving ghosts into BL/Ultras and murdering them... managing an army, dodging fungals with your infantry, sieging and unsieging while micro'ing ghosts is friggin hard. Terran can't just spawn 12 vikings, and even if they could, a couple of fungals and they are gone. Then the ultra tech switch for GG.

I believe the "if you let the zerg max out on 5 bases and get that late game composition, you are asking for it" is a fair argument. But still, going and killing a zerg at 15-18 min who has a crap load of infestors is not always an option.

This brings up a really sticky issue.... Terran is probably OP at the top level, but if you really look at the data, they are NOT OP in the Plat/Diamond/Low-Mid masters level whatsoever. They are the least played race at these levels, because the relative difficulty of playing Terran vs. Zerg/Protoss at these levels is way off. I know everyone loves their "Terran OP" catharsis, but unless you are playing top level that is just objectively wrong. So Terran keeps getting nerfed to keep the pro scene balanced (which is cool with me), but it's hard out here for a Terran below there.

I agree something needed to be done, but it just seems a bit drastic. I'd like to see a corresponding, and very minor, fungal and storm nerf one day.

A Terran can dream.

blinkingangels

105 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#368

All these changes look great except for the snipe nerf. WAY too drastic. Late game TvZ is already zerg favored (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042), and tech switches are a pain to deal with. Ghosts may of been too much of a safety net to fall back on, I agree, but a 20 damage nerf is huge. Hopefully Blizzard tones it down to something like a 10 damage nerf after PTR. I would of also liked to see Blizzard at least address late game TvP problems.

TheOGBlitzKrieg

United States346 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#369

Ohkay blizzard, I will only build Ghosts vs Protoss, i'm sorry.

but on a serious note mule vs gold base is a good change.
ghost damage nerf to where, why will you build them vs zerg?? not so sure. well i guess you'll still build them, they'll just be the emp caster thats a paperweight afterwords.

Nyctophobia

Canada99 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#370

Good changes. Feels like these were all very well thought out.

SolidZeal

United States393 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#371

Hmmm, maybe a touch disappointing. I really like the changes they've made, but don't like the lack of terran late game buff v.s. protoss. Even a collosus damage nerf would have been appropriate given the nice phoenix option protoss has against zerg now. I'm a protoss player, but i have been considering trying terran. TvP seems very diffucult late game.

Edit: I really like the idea of buffing the raven and I think a 1-2 range buff to seeker missle v.s. air would be a great way to do it, phoenix can rip them apart now

Roe

Canada6002 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#372

On February 11 2012 02:46 nam nam wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm pretty sure he's arguing against your "it won't make a difference" point. Your reasoning being that it's theoretically possible to micro phenoix against muta is not really valid since people are not able to do that.

pro level players do it all the time, unless you're arguing for the masters and below players

Eraserhead

159 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#373

I expected a buff for bunkers tbh because of its complete uselessness in TvP.

Sated

England4983 Posts

February 10 2012 17:54 GMT

#374

--- Nuked ---

KalWarkov

Germany4126 Posts

February 10 2012 17:55 GMT

#375

great patch.

i can micro phoenix now against mutas. yeah!

n0ave

180 Posts

February 10 2012 17:55 GMT

#376

On February 11 2012 02:53 stratmatt wrote:
WHy is it that zerg and toss get a brutal ass area of effect spell that can just mruder entire clumps of units butwe get one measly snipe, and an ALREADY nerfed EMP. Seriosuly EMP now is almost just as useless as snipe is going to be.

So that T players learn not to clump up units

sexyandiknowit

United States18 Posts

February 10 2012 17:55 GMT

#377

On February 11 2012 02:32 Gfire wrote:
Mule change is great.

I think I would prefer if snipe did reduced damage to massive units. The fact that you can't even 1-shot a ling or bane with a snipe attack seems pretty silly.

Phoenix upgrade seems good to me. Although, with 7 range it would be able to kite BCs, VRs and Corruptors, which would be kind of cool. That might be too much, though.

APM changes are great, I'm glad both values are going to be included.

Edit: Also, I hope we will eventually see phoenix's kiting phoenixes in PvP.

The Phoenix starts with 4 range. A buff of 2 will give it six total range, not 7. The Phoenix will still not be able to kite BCs, VRs, and Corruptors.

I love all the patch changes! Blizzard has really been listening to the community

Although many Terrans are complaining that the snipe damage change is too drastic, I think that this is a good change because it requires Terrans to make Vikings (for broodlords), Thors/Marauders (for ultras), and Ghosts (and it might possibly encourage more nuke play) instead of massing just Ghosts. Its better to see a variety of diverse units on the field than a big ball of one unit.

After watching Morrow vs Leenock, I think that nukes and ravens with seeker missiles are both tools that terrans can use late game to great effect.

Perhaps the late game metagame will change to something like this:

Map splits in half, terran does standard tank/thor/marine/whatever line across strategic positions, ghosts launch defensive nukes to hold off blords while terran switches to air fleet of ravens, huge micro battle ensues. Defensive nukes are seriously underused...wouldn't you pay 100/100 (the cost of not even 1 ghost) to hold off the entire zerg army from pounding your position with waves of neverending broodlings? The cost of the units you would save are worth the cost of the nuke. And of course if the zerg never sees the nuke....well lets just say that its an easy victory for you from there on (and for those saying that nobody keeps their army in a nuke, please watch Stephano vs Thorzain or Leenock vs Morrow, in which both top tier zerg players lost THOUSANDS of resources in broodlords and infestors to nukes)

PDD and seeker missiles both HARD counter broodlords since they are one of the few units that can't run away from it (lol) and broodlings actually count as projectiles and are targeted down by the PDDs. However, infestors can fungal flocks of ravens and launch infested terrans, so if the terran isn't careful about keeping the ravens spread, they can potentially lose their entire fleet to a few fungals. Ghosts are brought back in to counter infestors (2 snipes now kill an infestor instead of 3), and now both races are using their entire arsenal of units in an intensive micro-oriented battle.

Lorch

Germany3691 Posts

February 10 2012 17:55 GMT

#378

Sounds good, I'd be interesting to see if GSL brings gold bases back now.
Love the APM change, so nice to see that I don't have to rely on SC2 gears to know APM now. I'm kinda excited about the phoenix change, I always thought since carrier are useless there should be another reason to get fleet beacon besides mothership and I love range upgrades :D Also I'm curious to see if mutas will just dissappear from the metagame, not because they are useless now but just because of the buff itself.
Snipe change should be good for all zergs out there, though at the same time they do even more damage vs ht now